Rapture (pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib) ?

Buzsaw writes:

quote:

---

The choice is up to you but sorry, there's no none of all for anyone regardless of how many double or 2nd the notion. Almighty God calls the shots.

---

BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, Buzsaw. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, Buzsaw has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, Buzsaw gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni®, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?

---

Rrhain

---

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

It appears to me that its in the great tribulation after the rapture the last 3.5 years of the tribulation. In Rev 13 it says that power was given unto him to continue 42 months which is 3.5 years the exodus of the woman happens approximately 3.4 years thus it fits in my mind she the woman fleeing the dragon to the place prepared for her.If you look at kjv Daniel 12:11-12 is it talking about the woman having 45 days to flee the beast after the abomination. 1335-1290 = 45 days.
around the time of the abomination in kjv Rev 13:5-6 the beast is given unto him to continue 42 months. 1290 days plus 42 weeks = 7 years.kjv Daniel 9:27 about the 7 week covenant being broken by the False Messiah. If one days as a thousand years then 7 weeks = 7 years.This is why some are mid-tribulationist believers believing the raptured church will be before the great tribulation but after the tribulation.The bible too me does not seem to support the pre-tribulationist believers because of Mark 13:24. In my kjv bible it says after "that" tribulation which supports a two part tribulation too me.P.S. In kjv 2 Peter 3:8-9 were reminded that the Lord is not slack not willing that any should perish, etc... so is asking us to not be ignorant of this one thing that one day to the Lord is as a 1000 years.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

We will call the women in chapter 12 the Universal Bright Woman. The teaching that this woman is Israel and the Manchild is Jesus is not adaquate or accurate enough of an interpretation. I will draw heavily from the footnotes of the Recovery Version of the Bible to set forth a more accurate understanding of chapter 12. But I cannot cover all in one post.This Universal Bright Woman (UVW) has three characteristics:1.) clothed with the sun
2.) moon underneath her feet
3.) has a crown of twelve stars around her headShe represents the totality of all of God's people on the earth not just Israel. The mention of the three sources of light should remind us of Genesis 37:9, when Joseph in his dream saw the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, signifying his father, his mother, and his eleven brothers. There the sin, the moon and the eleven stars, plus Joseph himself signified the totality of God's people on the earth.Based on the principle of that dream, the sun, moon, and twelve stars must signify the totality of God's people on the earth, which is symbolized here by a woman.Most of her being is clothed with the sun, The sun signifies God's people in the New Testament age. Before Christ came to the world, it was the dark night of the Old Testament age. When Jesus Christ came as the rising sun from on high (Luke 1:78), the age of the sun came. Before that, it was the age of the moon, which signifies God's people in the Old Testament time. The moon is underneath the feet of the woman, for the age of the moon was the age of the law, which should not be exalted as the stars are.The law of Moses is subject to the Woman who stands in grace. Therefore the moon representing the Old Testament age of the law is underneath her feet. The stars however are exalted as a crown on her head. The stars, which represent the patriarchs, God's people before the law was given, are on her head, exalted, as a crown. The Universal Bright Woman's crown is the patriarchs before the law was given. The majority of her body is the New Testament age saints in grace. And the saints of the age of the law of Moses are subject under her feet as the age of Grace superceeded the age of the Law.All God's people in these three ages, who together constitute this woman, are light bearers. Hence, she is the bright woman shining thoughout all generations.This woman will actually become the Woman who is a Bride and Wife of the Lamb in the new heaven and new earth. She is to finally become the New Jerusalem in chapters 21 and 22 as the Bride and Wife of the Redeeming God-Man Jesus Christ.So now we have seen that the Universal Bright Woman stands for the totality of God's people in all three ages of the patriarchs before the law (stars), the old testament saints of the age of the law of Moses (the moon), and the new testament saints of the grace of Christ (the sun).Now we can go on to see what the Manchild brought forth from the woman should signify in my next post.You can obtain a free copy of the Recovery Version with Footnotes (just the New Testament portions) at Free Bible and Free Christian Books | Bibles for AmericaI encourage interested ones to good to Amazon and read the reviews of this great study Bible.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The manchild which is born from the Universal Bright Woman is the stronger part of the totality of God's people. Those who overcome are the stronger part in the whole body of God's people.Throughout all generations there are some stronger ones among God's people. These are considered in the Bible as a collective unit fighting the battle for God and bringing in God's kingdom down to earth.The crying out of the Universal Bright Woman in verse 2 signifies her prayer. Her "travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth" signifies that throughout all generations God's people have been suffering the travail of delivery (Isa. 26:17; Jer. 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Gal. 4:19) to bring forth the man-child that he may fight for God's kingdom.The Woman is the weaker part of the totality of God's people. The Manchild within her to which she gives birth is the stronger part, the male, sronger fighting unit. Of course this does not mean the the manchild only consists of males. It means that among all of God's people a remnant of stronger ones are viewed as a collective fighting unit. They are overcomers. They are victorious in God's spiritual warfare. In every age of God's move they are usually only a minority of such stronger ones.The dragon signifies Satan of course in verse 9. In Genesis 3 Satan was a serpent, a smaller creature, a subtle one. Here he has become a dragon, much larger than a serpent and cruel.The vision should remind us of Genesis where there was an enmity placed between the woman Eve, the mother of all living, and the serpent. The enmity of Satan against God's people has continued since the creation of man. Satan is always out to prevent the stronger part of God's people from coming forth.The Manchild is within the Woman. He is not apart from her but organically included in her. But he is brought forth. The stronger ones who overcome in the spiritual warfare in all three ages will be resurrected and raptured before the great tribulation.That the Manchild is a collective and not an individual is proved by the words "they," "their," "our brothers," "them," "they" again, and "their" again. See verses 9-11.Many readers fail to grasp that the plural "they" in chapter 12 refers to the manchild. At the rapture of the manchild the good angels go to war with Satan and his angels. And then it is said concerning the Manchild:"And I heard a loud voice in heaven sayin, Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And THEY overcame him because ofhe blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not their soul-life even unto death. (My emphasis).Who then does "THEY" and "THEM" refer to? These words refer to the Manchild who is a collective.They could not refer to the good angels. Though the good angels overcome Satan in the battle, they do not do so by the blood of the Lamb. They are not redeemed by Christ's blood. But the saints of all ages of God's move ARE redeemed by the blood of Christ.The stronger ones have overcome all the accusation of Satan by the blood of the Lamb Christ. And they have proclaimed the facts of God's victory in faith and not loved their own soul-lives even unto death.They denied themselves and lived unto God. They denied themselves and lived Christ. And the fact that it says "unto death" means that they have died in times past but in victory. They are overcomers - "and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb"We should see now that the interpretation that this woman is Israel or Mary and that her child is Jesus is wrong. The Woman is the Universal Totality of God's people in all three ages. And the Manchild is the overcoming and stronger part of her as a remnant. Specifically, those who have died in spiritual victory.The living overcomers are dealt with in another chapter, chiefly chapters 14.Now one more thing. Though Jesus does shepherd the nations with a rod of iron as is promised in Revelation 19:15 it is also granted to those who overcome to shepherd the nations with an iron rod:"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father" (Rev. 2:27)So this collective group, this remnant of overcomers, will also shepherd the nations with an iron rod as it says:"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne" (Rev.12:5) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

As Christ has tarried to return for centries He has been very active. It is a remnant of His people on earth who are the stronger ones. The majority do not cooperate well with His salvation.Just the same as the years go by Christ is amassing more and more stronger ones who are waiting in Paradise, to be His collective army. With Him they will bring His kingdom to the earth in a strong way.God created the earth for His kingdom. It was usurped and stolen by His enemy. Man himself became subject to Satan. God has never changed His eternal purpose. The principle of the manchild to have a remnant of God's people cause Satan to lose his power. This is for the recovery of the earth for God's kingdom.The accuser Satan always there to accuse the weaknesses of God's people. While it is true that the Christian church has had many failures, still in every age Christ has had some who overcame. These are victorious through Christ's all sufficient grace regardless of the surrounding degradation.As the years go by this number encreases more and more. In the future some time the world will be shocked. Christ and His overcoming army will descend and destroy the Antichrist and and establish God's reign. There will be healings of deseases and recovery of nature. There will be vegetation blooming in the desert and the blind being made to see, the lame being made to walk.The book of Hebrews says that the believers in the church age "have tasted of the powers of the coming age" (Heb.6:5)Today we believers enjoy a foretaste of a fuller taste to come. But not all believer will be reward with the assignment to co-rule the nations with Christ. They must be those who overcome in thier respective age of God's move.In the age before the law, and in the age of the law, and in the church age after the law there were and are overcoming believers who are on top in the spiritual warfare. These are seen as a little army. They are similar to Gideon's army of 300 in the book of Judges. The rest were told to go home. God wrought a grand victory on behalf of Israel with this remnant group of Gideon's.As the enemy of God is accusing day and night the weakness and failure of the people of God, an army of overcomers in being ammassed continually. They will be resurrected and raptured before the majority of believers will be resurrected and raptured.Their rapture will cause the servants of the saints, the angels, to heed their command to drive the Devil down from his accusing position in heaven."Now has come salvation the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

​

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of thier testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

​

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev.12:10-12)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

kjv rev 20:4-6 Jesus being the cornerstone and the living stones described as a spiritual house kjv 1 peter 2:6 one with Christ.Jesus appeared to Paul and said to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" Acts 9:4).I believe this is what your trying to say that the man child being carried up to God and to his throne is the raptured church (supporting the mid-trib) in that its referencing the dragon and the woman fleeing the dragon. That this is also referencing the ruling and reigning with Christ is not just the martyred saints of the first resurrection. kjv 20:4 but the raptured church too will live and reign with Christ. kjv 12:5.The woman is Israel fleeing the dragon for those 1,230 days. The remnant of her seed is those left behind. These saints will be overcome by the dragon kjv Rev 13. and martyred for refusing the Mark of the beast didn't worship the beast or its image will be part of the first resurrection, and also rule and reign for a thousand years with Christ. kjv rev 20:4Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

The manchild is not the entire church. The manchild is a remnant. In the same way that the story of Gideon and his army in Judges 6:1 - 8:37 was a remnant.A remnant is a minority number of the total number. The manchild is "caught up" to the throne of God because someone is already on the throne of God - the Head of the Body Christ. God want's a Man to Head up the creation. God wants man to excercise dominion over His creation and to express Him own image. This is seen in His creation of man in Genesis 1:26,27.Only a minority of the total number of God's people take the givine opportunity at the provided time to be matured in His salvation. Because only a minority cooperate when it is time for them to do so only this minority enjoy certain rewards in the coming kingdom.The manchild is not the entire body of believers. But God wants many men on the throne of God. So they are resurrected and caught up to the throne of God where thier Head and Leader is, Jesus the God-man.The word "caught up" in reference to the rapture of the manchild is the same as used in First Thessalonians 4:17. But the time is different. The being caught up in First Thessalonians is at the end of the great tribulation, at least at the last trumpet (compare First Cor. 15:52).The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet. This indicates that it is God's final judgments at that time.The rapture of the manchild preceeds the descent of Satan. So this rapture preceeds the last trumpet. Therefore this being "caught up" is before the time of conclusion of God's judging trumpets. The manchild is a minority raptured early in the last days.The word "and" follows the rapture of the manchild in these two places:"And the woman fled into the wilderness ... (12:6)"And there was war in heaven ..." (12:7)It is the rapture of this minority that is the cause of both events. The rapture of the remnant of overcomers from the Universal Bright Woman of the totality of God's people on earth, is the cause of the Woman to flee into the wilderness and for the war between the angels of God and those of Satan to commence.The woman is not Israel. The woman is the entire body of God's people on the earth. That would include the patriarchs before the law, the saints during the time of the law, and the new covenant saints after the law.The wilderness is probably all that land which would have been considered as wilderness around the ancient Roman Empire. The empire of Antichrist will mostly be around the area of the ancient Roman Empire. At that time other lands and unknown lands to this Empire center would have been considered wilderness.Refugees will flee from Antichrist when a remnannt of overcomers are raptured. THis is because the living overcomers will be raptured near that time also. When the rest of the people of God see that some have been taken this will warn them that very troublesome times are about to come. Of course there were signs of this already. The whole church will not reign with Christ. The overcomers who are rewarded to do so will.The defeated and those who did not mature will be in the outer darkness for 1,000 years. That does not mean they lose their salvation. It means that because they did not take the opportunity to mature during the their age, they must mature during the 1,000 years of the millennial kingdom. This is a discipline. This is a general word on this.Reward of reigning is not granted to all the saints. It is granted to those whom the Lord deems have overcome. The key to seeing this is Revelation is the seven letters to the seven churches. Seven times there is a heed to hear and a promise of reward to those who overcome.Within the church some overcome and some are defeated. All are saved eternally. And all eventually have to be matured. So that by the time of the new heaven and the new earth all have been matured. That is how you are intepreting it. That is not how I am interpreting it. I wrote previously about the Universal Bright Woman and gave the verses to interpret who she stands for. The saints who are left after the rapture of the Firstfruits in chapter 14 and the Manchild in chapter 12. They are under the heat of the persecution of the Antichrist. This is also a way to cause them to mature.Do you think any Christian seeing other believers raptured to heaven will continue to love the world? They will no longer love the world. They will no longer be apathetic about God's economy.They will realize that it was foolish to live as a worldly disciple. The heat of the persecution of Antichrist will be an aid to cause them to be ripened for God.Here is where the majority of those left on the earth are raptured as it says in First Thessolonians 4:17 and First Cor. 15:52:"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

​

And another angel came out of the temple crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.

​

And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev. 14:14-16)The important words here are harvest and ripe. The church is God's farm. God has sown Christ into His people on the earth for the purpose of growing Christ within His people.The majority of His people do not care for the growth of Christ. They may care only to be saved and have what they think is a "ticket" to heaven. A minority give themselves to cooperate with the indwelling divine life to grow.Of the church Paul wrote: You mentioned the living stones. These stones are growing stones. These stones in God's building are also crops on God's cultivated land. God's farm is the new testament church. The more we grow in the divine life the more we are builded together.We are God's farm; God's cultivated land. There is the need for the crop on God's farm to mature and be ready for Harvest. We need to give our utmost attention to the growth of the life of Jesus within us.Too many believers are caught up in looking at the time of when things are going to happen - pre-trib, or mid-trib, or post trib. I do not say that these matters are not important. But we really need to be concerned with God's farm and the growth of the spiritual life. The ripeness effects the timing of rapturee.When the majority see that some of their brothers and sisters have been raptured and that some dead believers have been resurrected and raptured, this will wake them up. And the persecution of the Antichrist and his overcoming them will also be a cause of the ripening of the harvest of God's crop of believers.The overcoming of them by the dragon should mean his authority to put some of them to death. The crown on the dragon are on his heads. But the crowns of the beast and Antichrist are on his horns. The horns means the authority to execute to death.In persecution the Harvest will ripen. In the final days when the world is of no use to the believers and there is hardly escape from persecution, they will ripen in life, be matured in consecration and be raptured by the Son of Man.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't see the timing different at all both are before the seventh seal is opened. They both support the mid-tribulationists believers rapture happens before the great tribulation approximately mid way thru the tribulation. The seven year covenant the False Messiah signs with Israel.kjv Daniel 9:27 If the last angelic trumpet is the the last trump of God. The last trump and its trumpet sounding says for the Lord himself shall desend from the heavens with the trump of God. kjv 1 thessalonians 4:16.In Zechariah you see The Lord blowing the trumpet (notice not an angelic trumpet) thus the last trump is the last trump blown by the Lord God.KJV Zechariah 9:14 says the Lord God shall blow the trumpet in Zechariah 9:16 seems a reference to the woman the stones of a crown a flock of his people in that day the Lord their God shall save them, lifted up as an ensign upon his land. It does say the first resurrection will live and reign with Christ.If they are part of the first resurrection then they will live but perhaps not all reign. Is that what your saying? Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

The contents of the seventh seal IS the seven trumpets:"And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them." (Rev. 8:1,2)When the seven seal is opened there is silence in heaven signifying the solemnity of the changing of the age. The seven trumpets are part of the contents of the seventh seal.In these seven trumpets only trumpets five, six, and seven encompase the great tribulation. That does not mean that there are no calamities upon the earth before the five trumpet. Clearly there are. But it is the three woes of the three last trumpets - five, six, and seven which comprise the great triblation.Since the rapture of the manchild (Rev.12:5) preceeds the fleeing of the woman into the wilderness for "a thousand two hundred and sixty days" (Rev.12:6) the rapture of the manchild is PRE-great tribulation.

​

If you interpret that the tribulation is seven years, that would not be the case. But I do not count the great tribulation as seven years but three and one half years. It is the "thousand two hundred and sixty days" that the woman flees to be nourished from before the face of the dragon. It is also the "thousand two hundred and sixty days" that God's two witnesses testify in sackcloth (Rev. 11:3). It is also the "forty two months" that the Gentiles trample the holy city (Rev. 11:2).This is also the time that the beast will open his mouth and speak great blasphamies for "forty two months" (Rev. 13:5). Chapter 12 says - "And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is to be nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent" (Rev.12:14)One year = "a time." Two years = "times." And a half a year = "half a time."Since it is the rapture of the manchild which causes Satan to come down to the earth in great rage where within Antichrist he acts for three and one half years, the rapture of the Manchild is PRE- great tribulation. Read Revelation 12:7 through 12 to see if you can grasp this timing.1.) The manchild is raptured
2.) The war in heaven drives Satan down to the earth
3.) Because of his great rage the great tribulation commences for
the time of his acting - three and one half years.Now how it the timing of the rapture of the manchild different from the rapture of the majority of the believers?Satan, the star with the key to the abyss, comes down at the fifth trumpet (Rev. 9:1,2). The fifth trumpet is the first trumpet of the great tribulation. The manchild's rapture must preceed this (Rev. 12:6-12).The rapture of the majority of the saints is at the last trumpet which is the seventh trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thess. 4:17).I will notice your comment on the last trumpet, perhaps, below when I get there.But it is important to see that place to which each these two groups are raptured are different. The manchild is caught up to God and to His throne. This should be in the third heavens. The large group raptured in 1 Thess. 4:17 are raptured to the air. I submit that to the throne and to the air denote two different places.Before the start of the great tribulation some living believers and some deceased believers will be raptured to the third heavens. Then Christ will begin to make His journey towards the earth. He will come with this group of living and resurrected overcomers and hide in a cloud near the earth in a concealed way. This is revealed in Revelation chapter 10. Then at or near the very end of the tribulation He will appear visibly on the cloud and rapture the majority of the harvest to the air, near the earth where He is hovering.1.) Christ is first in the third heavens on the throne of God in chapter 122.) After the rapture of the manchild and the firstfruits He begins His journey of descent towards this planet.3.) He conceals Himself and His hosts within a cloud near the earth. Here is the passage which speaks of this: [b]"And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon His head, and His face was like the sun, and His feet like pillars of fire. (Rev.10:1)The only matter I would emphasize right now is that this is Christ near the earth hidden in a cloud. The world cannot see Him yet but He is just above the earth and concealed in a cloud - [b]"clothed with a cloud"{/b4.) Finally the Christ hidden in a cloud manifests Himself sitting on the cloud. And as the visible one ON the cloud He reaps the Harvest of the majority of His saints very near the end of the great tribulation. This is seen here: [b]"And I saw, and behold, there was a white cloud, and on the cloud One like the Son of Man sitting, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand" (Rev. 14:14).From on the cloud He reaps the Harvest majority of the saints left on the earth.5.) After this we see Christ not clothed with a cloud, not sitting on a cloud, but coming to the earth lightening up the whole earth with His glory. This is seen here:"After these things I saw another Angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory." (Rev. 18:1) Compare also with Revelation 19:11-21.The rapture of the remnant Firstfruits and the remnant Manchild are pre-great triublation. The rapture of the Harvest is latter towards the end of the time of Jacob's trouble, the great tribulation. [qs] They both support the mid-tribulationists believers rapture happens before the great tribulation approximately mid way thru the tribulation. The seven year covenant the False Messiah signs with Israel.kjv Daniel 9:27[/b]The covenant is seven years. The great tribulation commences when the Antichrist breaks the covenant in the middle of the seven years.Now, I know this may sound confusing because the Antichrist is on the earth before Satan descends. Just briefly will I say something about this. The Antichrist will come on the scene as a great peace maker and a really GOOD person. But He is killed and resucitated. When he resucutates and and imitates the resurrection of Christ he comes back with the spirit of Ceasar Nero.The coming down of Satan and the opening of the abyss causes the resucitated Antichrist to have another personality. He will be a body inhabited with the soul and spirit of Ceasar Nero.This is one reason why the matter of timing is difficult to get in the Scriptures. BUt there is another reason why the timing is difficult to grasp. That is because of the perculiar structure of the book of Revelation. It is really in TWO halves. The first half ends at chapter 11. Then the second half re-covers events already told yet with a greater focus. The chapters 12 begins to re-address matters already discribed in previous chapters.This is why you cannot take the 22 chapters totally sequentially in terms of timing. You must stop at the end of chapter 11 and prepare for the second section of the prophesy. John was told in chapter ten that he must prophesy again. The book is divided up into TWO main sections, roughly 1-11 and 12-22. The second section focuses first on the last three and one half years of the age before the millennial kingdom. I will have to continue latter. I am called away. But your questions and observations are appreciated. And it is mutually benefitial fellowship to me.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The tribulation is 7 years from the beginning of the covenant to the last 3.5 years which is called the great tribulation. It does not sound confusing for he will be the one that signs the peace treaty with Israel.2 Thessalonians 2:3 says let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Thats how I see it but leaning its also apart of the rapture for the wedding feast. I'm leaning it preceeds all the trumpets of the angels but can see why your leaning its before the fifth trumpet. Perhaps my take is the sixth seal is before the seventh seal and the seventh seal is about the seven angelic trumpets. It says heaven is his throne and also that he sits upon the circle of the earth that the inhabitants are as grasshoppers, etc... kjv Isaiah 40:22Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.2 Chronicles 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? My take the Anti-Christ will be infilled with satan when he is healed of the wound. It says "his" wound was healed kjv rev 13:3-4 then in rev 13:18 that the beast is a man. Interesting! Possibly 1-10 & 11-22. Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

After consulting with the footnotes of the Recovery Version of the Bible I have to correct and expand on what I wrote before. That is about the two sections. Your comment above agrees with the RcV's study note that chapter 11 begins the second section of prophecy.The prophecy in Revelation is composed in two sections. From the first seal to the sixth trumpet (chapters 6 - 10) is the first section; it is in secret. From the seventh trumpet to the new heaven and new earth (chapters 11 - 2) is the second section; it is openly manifested.Chapter 10:11 says "And they said to me, You must prophecy again over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings."This signals that the section is about to commence. You see the scroll was first taken out of the hand of God by Christ the Lion-Lamb in chapter 5. He began to open the seals and the visions of the future of the church, Israel and the world commence. Then in chapter 10 there is the "little scroll" in the hand of the Another strong Angel which John is commanded to eat (Rev. 10:8-11). And John is told to prophecy again.The Angel in chapter 10 should be Christ as the Angel of Jehovah. In His hand is the "little scroll" (10:2) which is the remainder of the big scroll which He took from the hand of His Father in chapter 5. It is the second section of the prophecy within the little scroll.John now, after eating the scroll, "must prophesy again" (10:11) in the second section of this book, the section that concerns Christ's coming to possess the earth as His kingdom (11:15). This is the content of the little scroll.Now the Angel with the little scroll and His hand should be Christ. Again the rainbow of the covenant of Noah is seen around His head [b](10:2). In chapter four this same rainbow was seen around the throne of God the Creator. Christ, in coming to judge the earth, will remember the covenant God made with Noah not to totally destroy all life and all lives on the earth (Gen. 9:8-17).His feet as pillars of fire signify:
1.) His eternal steadfastness (pillars)
2.) His great holiness (fire)"And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon Head, and His face was like the sun, and His feet like pillars of fire." (Rev.10:1)Near the time of His coming to the people on the earth openly, Christ will be like the sun, not like the morning star, which appears before the darkest time, prior to dawn, to those who love Him and wait for Him. Revelation 2:28 and 2 Peter 1:19 show Christ in the hearts of His lovers as a morning star. The footnotes in the RcV are very good on 1 Peter 1:19.But in chapter 10 Christ is seen here near the earth. He is clothed with a cloud and about to appear as the sun. The earth and nature will be convulsing unexplainably at His presence. He comes to possess land and sea."And He cried out with a loud voice just as a lion roars, And when He cried out, the seven thunders uttered their own voices." (Rev.10:3 compare Isa.31:4; Hosea 11:10).What the seven thunders uttered John was not allowed to write. I suppose that some things were not meant to be written but thundered. But they have something to do with the wrath of God and of Christ over His taking back full possession of the earth from Satan and Antichrist.The little scroll again in His hand is the scrool in 5:1. In His hand it is "opened" - "And He had in His hand a little opened scroll". Now it is in His hand. In 5:1 it was sealed; here it is opened. It is called the little scroll because the main part of the scroll has already been revealed.Christ, placing His feet on the sea and on the land (10:2) is His treading on them, and to tread on them is to take possession of them (Deut. 11:24; Josh. 1:3; Psalm 8:6-8). This indicates that Christ is coming down to take possession of the earth. Only Christ was worthy to open the sealed scroll of God's eternal purpose and only He is worthy and qualified to possess the earth.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It says its an angel however the angels appearance is about the likeness of the glory of the LORD.================================================================kjv Ezekiel 1:28 This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD, etc...

How about a differnt perspective, what if there is no rapture? I'm talking about a literal rapture, where most the followers of God get taken to heaven. This belief is totaly contradictory to the Advent of Jesus Christ found in Rev. 14:14-15, among others.

---

Why Are We so Simple-Minded?
I Know it's Easy to Deny the Truth.............Search Your Heart for What You Believe to be True. Then, Considering Your Morals, Decide if this, in Your Heart of Hearts, is What you Truly Believe.

The Recovery Version Bible follows similiarly John Nelson Darby's New Translation that a number of times "angel" in Revelation should be capitalized. It is Christ who is being revealed in one of His many faceted roles as the Angel of Jehovah.Christ is the Son of God. Yet He is also a Messenger of God. In this regard angel in the following places should be the capital "A" - Angel of the Lord Jesus Himself. [/b]Revelation 7:2 - "And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God ..."Revlation 8:2 - "And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censor, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of the saints ..."Revelation 10:1 - "And I saw another strong Angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon His head ..."Revlation 18:1 - "After these things I saw another Angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illumined with His glory." Some of us believe that these passages refer to Christ. We have to remember that the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". It is not mainly the revelation of frogs, dragons, locusts, earthquakes, horns, etc." These things are are all on the perimiter. The revelation made known by signs (1:1) is chiefly of Jesus Christ.Read Christ in these passages and it will enhance your understanding of the book.The footnote in the RcV on Revelation 7:2 says: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If the manchild is not raptured than Satan continues forever to do what he does in the book of Job. That is to slander and accuse God's people before God. It is the catching up of the manchild in chapter 12 which is a strategic repositioning of some of those who are under the devil's accusation, above him leaving him no ground any longer to blame and accuse God's people.In Colossians Paul writes "And you, though once alienated and enemies in your mind because of your evil works, He now has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND WITHOUT BLEMISH and WITHOUT REPROACH before Him; IF you indeed continue in the faith" (Col. 1:21,22 my emphasis)God's salvation does not only forgive us. He is able to transform us and present us without blemish - blameless before God. In the power of His life there is the dynamic salvation which can save us dispositionally through transformation.Through the centries God is amassing ones here and there who "continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast and not being removed from the hope of the gospel ..." (Col. 1:23) They are not only forgiven judicially. They are being saved organically.The victory of God's organic salvation produces overcomers. Overcomers fight the battle in coordination with God to defeat Satan and reclaim the earth. The end of justification by faith in Romans is to heir of the world:"For it was not through the law that the promise was made to Abraham or to his seed that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith" (Romans 4:13)This passage shows us that one important end goal of God's justifying the sinners is that they would be heirs of the world. God created man in His image and entrusted to man His dominion of the earth. So justification by faith seeks to recover man to this office.The rapture of the manchild presents some before God not merely forgiven but transformed. And when they are raptured they give the commmand that Satan would be cast out from accusing the brothers any longer before God. God can point to His overcomers and shame the Devil. Some, if not all, have continued in the faith to be presented without blame and without blemish before God.Many believers see a rapture of the manchild in Revelation 12 but think it only refers to Jesus as an individual. This is wrong. But it is a little bit right because Jesus is the Chief overcomer. Yet He as the Head of the Body of Christ is there in heaven already.Now here are some reasons why the manchild cannot be merely Jesus alone:1.) The plural pronouns in verses 10 and 11 indicate that the raptured manchild is a collective." ... they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb"Redemmed sinners need the blood of Jesus. The sinless angels do not. The overcomers here must be a collection of former sinners." the word of their testimony"By speaking the truths of God's word and the divine facts, forgiven sinners overcome in spiritual warfare. "Jesus is Lord, Satan is defeated, the church is glorious, we are more than conquerers through Him who loved us, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, etc" are the precious promises which we believers must stand on and proclaim in order to have spiritual victory. We walk not by sight but by faith. These is the testimony not of the angels but of the redeemed people."they loved not thier soul-life even unto death"This has to refer to people and not angels. The believers who overcame in the past many times did so even in their dying for the faith. They loved the Lord Jesus more than their soul-life. They loved the Lord more than the independent soul-life which seeks only its own will. They denied themselves to follow the Lord Jesus. And they are a collective overcoming army.2.) The manchild could not refer to Jesus alone because Jesus was not caught to the throne of God immediately after being born. He lived on earth thirty three and a half years before He ascended to the throne on heaven.3.) Verse 3 says, "She brought forth a son, a man-child who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod."This speaks of the millennial kingdom. Revelation mentions shepherding the nations with a rod of iron three times. First, 2:26,27 says "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will shepherd them with an iron rod." This passage quite obviously refers to the overcomers in the church. The last mention of this phrase is in 19:15, which says, "Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod." This passage refers to the Lord Jesus.To whom them does the passage in 12:5 refer? It must refer either to the Lord Jesus or to the overcomers in the church. The Lord Jesus was not caught up to the throne of God in heaven at the time He was born. So the birth of the manchild must be the resurrection of the collective group of oversomers who rule with Christ as co-kings, heirs of the world, the meek who inherit the earth, and those who rule over five or ten cities as He promised (Luke 19:17-19)The overcomers are the instrument that enables God to achieve His purpose. Their rapture is a strategic victory in the spiritual warfare. And the angels are "all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation" (Heb.1:13,14). So at the rapture of the stronger part of the Univeral Bright Woman - her manchild, the good angels drive Satan and his angels down to earth for good.His next station is the abyss. And after this the eternal torment of the lake of fire.Rapture for the collective manchild should not be thought of as an escape from something. It is an attack against something on behalf of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.