Rapture (pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib) ?

Or maybe each person faces his or her own rapture, trib and trump; but it is fun watching folk trot out Revelations which is talking about stuff that was supposed to happen 1800 or more years ago.They were wrong then too.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Job said even though his body will be destroyed yet in his flesh with his own eyes he will behold the redeemer.=================================================================For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. kjv Job 19:25-27Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

quote:

---

One ring to rule them all.
One ring to bind them.
One ring to seek them out
and in the darkness find them.
In the Land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie.

---

Makes as much sense as your "response" and is just as pertinent.The point, in case it was lost, is that quoting the Bible to try to support a recently invented doctrine does not in any way make that doctrine any less recently invented.Edited by dwise1, : the point

In revelation those Martyred are told to wait yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. kjv rev 6:11 And then they beheld the great earthquake and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; kjv Rev 6:12The apostle Paul too was martyred so he absent from the body is present with the Lord but told to wait a little season till their brethren too will be likewise killed as they were should be fullfilled.As far as the rapture seems to me that its about the Church those that have died believing in Christ will be raptured first (like Job)then those that are living having oil for their lamp will too be raptured called to the Marriage supper of the Lamb.It says: Blessed are they that are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. kjv Rev 19:9Those that are left behind after the rapture that are martryed will miss the marriage supper of the Lamb but will be part of the first resurrection all the rest will be part of the second resurrection.Joel 2:31 & Joel 2:32 says that whosoever calls upon the Lord will be delivered, as the Lord hath said and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.In the Olivet Discourse as Buzz said the darkening of the sun and the moon are what happens shortly before the Rapture. If it happens post trib or pre trib is all in the hands of the Almighty but were told to watch and have oil for our lamps. If you die with oil in your lamp then when rapture occurs you will be called to be present to the marriage supper of the Lamb..

Obviously you didn't read the text which I cited which is the sequence of events Jesus set forth in the Olivet Discourse, Mark 13:24-28. Note that this text begins with the tribulation after which comes the darkening of the sun & moon, rapture, etc. So the Almighty has clearly enlightened the reader as to whether the rapture is pre or post trib. Clearly here according to Jesus the rapture is post tribulation and post darkening of sun & moon as well.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

We'll I guess I have to agree its post tribulation but don't see how you can believe the 7 angels trumpets are of the tribulation.kjv rev chapter 7 is confirming the tribulation of church all happens before the seventh seal is opened. My take on it is once the seventh seal is opened we've moved into the wrath of God.kjv Matthew 24:31 you have the trumpet sounding in agreement with Revelation chapter 7 which is before the seventh seals opened. Its also in agreement with 1 cor 15:52 and 1 Th 4:16.This too me (not necessarily anyone else)pretty much seals the trump of God happening before the trumpets of the seven angels.I'm reading it to be that rapture will be at the last trump when the Lord himself blows the trumpet and the seven angels will be for those left behind.Meaning the seven trumpets are part of the wrath of God not a part of the tribulation.kjv rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?P.S. I'm leaning the tribulation is actually satan decieving man. Like if man left to man listening to the devil no flesh would of survived thus thus God shortened the tribulation. Then we move into the wrath of God upon those destroying the earth. kjv rev 11:18--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will respond but I have not read all of the discussion. So my response will be related to the post which led to these comments. This is revealed at the opening of the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9-11). The overcomers in Paradise under the earth (underneath the altar), are calling for God to wrap up the age and bring in the millennial kingdom.So we have both the living saints on the earth praying for this (8:3-5) and the departed saints praying for this (Rev. 6:9-11). Not many Christians appreciate that prayer is the drive shaft driving God's actions to perform His will upon the earth.Ripening and maturing, as I spoke of, certainly includes strong and effective prayers maturely asking God to perform His will:"Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons. And concerning the works of My hands, command Me (Isa. 45:11 RcV)"We are to even command God concerning the works of His hands to accomplish His eternal purpose. This event is the 6th seal. It is not a part of the great tribulation which consist of trumpets 5, 6, and 7. It is a warning to the earth dwellers that the great tribulation is about to occur.Somewhere close to that time the living overcomers are taken up (Rev. 14:1-5). And the deceased overcomers are taken up too (Rev. 12).The Firstfruits overcomers are in Rev. 14. And the sleeping overcomers are taken up (Rev. 12) the Manchild. Both of these groups raptured to the throne of God in the third heavens are a minority of the total number of believers.But their rapture to the third heavens definitely gets the great tribulation started. So the prayers of the overcomers (living and sleeping) and the rapture of them, are the catalyst driving many of these events. I believe that someone like the Apostle Paul will go up with the Manchild rapture in Rev. 12. For it says that these believers loved not their soul life even unto death (12:11).Paul was certainly a brother who did not love his soul life even unto death. He was an overcomer and more than a conqueror. In other words he was a normal Christian. That is not average Christian but a normal Christian with normal growth in grace and normal overcoming in life.The rapture of the Manchild before the great tribulation of three and one half years, will include also the overcomers of the Old Testament times. The overcomers of the OT who are in Paradise under the earth and the NT overcomers who are in Paradise also, will comprise the Manchild.The Firstfruits and the Manchild will be the living overcomers and the sleeping overcomers who will both be raptured before the start of the great tribulation. One group - Firstfruits underline the Father's satisfaction. The other group - Manchild underline the stronger portion of God's total people for fighting the battle against Satan, God's enemy.Paul will be part of the Manchild. Presently, they are in Abraham's bosom, in Paradise under the earth. Presently they are, in a relative sense rather than an absolute sense - more with the Lord, than if they were living on the earth.The departed believers are not in heaven. They are underneath the altar of the earth. They are in Paradise under the earth. It is amazing that we believe these things. Job, we may take as an overcomer of the Old Testament age. He will probably be part of the Manchild of Revelation 12.The wise virgins have their souls, the vessel, filled up with the extra oil. The Spirit of the processesed and consummated Triune God has saturated their personalities. This was wise for them to allow the all-inclusive Spirit to grow and spread within them.I usually intepret this parable to help the New Testament believers. It is wise to allow the Holy Spirit to fill up your soul and personality. It is foolish to confine the Holy Spirit to your regenerated human spirit.All believers are born of the Spirit and have the Spirit in their lamps - "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord" (Prov. 20:27)If we are wise we will allow an "extra" portion of this regenerating Spirit to invade our soul and personality. This cost us something. The Spirit in our human spirit is really a gift. That is the oil in the lamp. The filling of our soul with the Spirit is the for which we must pay the price of denying ourselves to live unto Christ and by Christ.Five is the number of responsibility. So five foolish and five wise does not mean half the church is foolish and half is wise. Rather it means the responsibility as to whether we will be wise or foolish is up to us.The wise will allow the Spirit that caused them to be born again, to fill up their soul and personality. The foolish will erroneously assume that all that was needed was to be born again. That is foolish in terms of reward in the millennium not eternal redemption.For eternal redemption being born again is sufficient. But for REWARD in the coming 1,000 year kingdom it is not. That kingdom requires transformation, sanctification, conformation into the image of Christ. If we neglect these we as Christians are indeed foolish and will find out so in the Second Coming.The foolish eventually had to pay the price anyway. But when they did so the reward was in progress. They are late. They do not perish eternally. Yet they are late for the reward of the marriage feast. I suspect that some of this at least you follow. This is a big subject. Isn't it? This requires some re-studying which I will not do right at this moment. But apparently, there are some overcomers who are the "late" overcomers from chapter 15. They were left during the tribulation but are seen standing on the shore of the sea of glass mingled with fire. See Revelation 15:2-4.They "came off victorious" from the beast etc. So I think that they are positively rewarded with the marriage feast though they did pass through the great tribulation.It is at the judgement seat of Christ that Christ Himself will determine who is rewarded and how. We are told not to judge before the Lord does. So I have to leave some room for surprises.The matter of the first resurrection and the best resurrection ("out resurrection" Phil. 3:11 RcV), I will not comment on extensively here now.But if you are saying that those Christians who were not overcomers and who are not to receive the reward of the marriage feast in Revelation 19 and Matthew 25, are not resurrected until after the millennial kingdom, this would be incorrect.That the majority of believers may not be rewarded with the reigning with Christ in the millennium, seems very secure of a belief. They do not have the "out resurrection" which Paul sought to obtain - Since it was something which he hoped to attain, it is not a common resurrection but one of reward, to be attained by cooperating with God's economy, being conformed to the death of Christ and co-suffering with Him in the power of His grace.Many believers avoid these trials. Many believers avoid and postpone these dealings. They assume that to be born again is all that is needed. Yet for God's purpose we need to be transformed into the image of Christ through our cooperation as Paul sought in Phillippians chapter three.Those who are defeated, those who are saved yet do not become those who overcome, are also resurrected before the millennial kingdom. It would be wrong to say that they must wait until the second resurrection to be raised from the dead.One proof of this would be the foolish virgins. When they all went forth to meet the Bridegroom, I take that to mean that they all were resurrected and raptured. They went to meet Him.While the marriage feast was in progress, they were off somewhere paying the price for the extra oil which they should have paid before.All who appear at the judgement seat of Christ in the air before He descends to the earth have been resurrected and raptured. In that state it is decided by Christ whether reward or discipline is needed. So let us call on the name of the Lord daily to be saved from all that plagues us."Because He inclines His ear to me; Therefore I will call upon Him all my days" (Psalm 116:2) That is right. Exactly. Since we do not know the time we must suppliment our ignorance with diligence. How wise the Lord Jesus is.We should live as if He could come for us at any moment. We should even sleep at night in the bed as if He could come at any moment. Remember - "Two shall be in a bed. One is taken and one is left"Of course I think this should be more a matter of our burning love for Him rather than a terror of being caught off guard. I think the motive should be mostly of love for His dear and precious presence. We simply do not like to grieve the Spirit. And if we do we have the precious blood to cleanse our conscience and place us back on the right track.Virgins denote love. Servants denote faithfulness in service. The Lord Jesus taught His coming in light of both aspects in Matthew 25. I think all of the lamps were going out - Wise and Foolish. The Wise ones had extra oil in case of such an event.The oil which qualified the wise to go into the feast was the extra oil stored in the vessel. You have the vessel and you have the lamp. "But the prudent took oil in their vessels with their lamps" (Matt, 25:4)The extra oil in the vessel with their lamps is what they had which showed their wisdom. We are spirit, soul, and body. All believers, when regenerated, receive the Holy Spirit in thier human spirit.If we are wise we will take this gift and cooperate to let the Lord spread the Spirit into our vessel, our soul. That means our transformation through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in our personality. To neglect this is foolish. To give heed to it daily is wise.The one rewarded with the marriage feast are the ones who have their personalities filled with the Spirit. This comes from a life long excercise of denying the self and allowing the Lord Jesus to spread His Spirit within our souls." ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

They aren't. Again, go back to Jesus's sequence of events in Mark 11 24-28. What do you read? You read that the tribulation preceeds the darkening of sun & moon. Go to the 4th trumpet and there is where in the trumpet soundings the darkening of sun & moon happens. Conclusion = tribulation preceeds at least some of the trumpet events.Evangelicals have this unfounded notion that the tribulation is a 7 year period. Pray tell, where is this in the prophecies? It ain't. It's a phenomenon which began with the Bolshevic Revolution early last century and has escalated to what it is today and will continue to intensify until the time of the rapture when relatively few Chrisitians will likely survive the tribulation as Islam advances into additional nations from the 30 or so that it already dominates and as secularism continues to be the order of the day in the West as it was in Europe last century. Communism's effect is not dead by any means.What Christians don't understand about the tribulation is that it is just that - tribulation, i.e persecution of Christians. It when the 1st beast of Revelation 13 "makes war with the saints and overcomes them" and in last verses of Revelation 12 where Satan leaves off persecuting the Jews who escape and goes after the Christians who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ." It's happening in Muslim nations all over the Muslim world; it happened to the Christians last century when the secularist Commies of Europe slaughtered nearly a hundred million of them, confiscated their Bibles, etc etc. It's happening in secularist China today where Christians are persecuted severely, etc, etc. It's beginning to show some in the Western world where there's essentially open season on Christianity.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

Buzsaw, it is the first rapture which is the cause of the great tribulation.The first rapture of the saints to the third heavens makes it impossible that the Devil should any longer have the freedom to accuse the brethren in heaven before God. He is driven down and limited to the earth. His descent to the earth after the rapture of the Manchild in chapter 12 is the event which causes the great tribulation to commence:"And they [the saints who compose the raptured Manchild] overcame him [the devil] because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

​

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (Rev. 12:11,12)When the devil is driven from the heavens in his accusing activity, down to the earth, he arrives with great rage. He knows that he has only a little time left. His descent to the earth exactly marks the beginning of the great tribulation. That "little time" of three and one half years is exactly the great tribulation regardless of what calamities natural or supernatural occured beforehand.Do you follow? The descent of Satan to the earth to be restricted to move in that realm alone is the great tribulation - "Woe to the earth and the sea ... BECAUSE ... the devil has come down to you and has GREAT RAGE ... knowing that he has only a short time."Where else can we see that the descent of Satan to be limited to the earth, is the great tribulation? We see the same matter in Revelation 9:"And the fifth angel trumpeted, and I saw a star out of heaven fallen to the earth, AND TO HIM ... was given the key of the pit of the abyss." (Rev. 9:1)You may see what terrible things transpire at the "star" personage opening with the key the pit of the abyss. This is at the fifth trumpet. So the great tribulation is the Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh trumpets. The descent of Satan to be restricted to the earth is covered with the falling of this "star" with his key in chapter 9 and with the driving of the Devil down by Michael and his angels, at the rapture of the Manchild, in chapter 12.Here is the warning that the great tribulation is about to commence just before the sounding of the fifth trunpet:"And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet!" (Rev. 8:13)

​

The next thing to commence is the falling of the "star" - a "him" who has a key to the pit of the abyss. This is the Devil.

​

Now compare this warning in chapter 8 with that in chapter 12:

​

"Woe to tghe earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time" (12:12b)The first pre-tribulation rapture of the corporate Manchild has caused the kingdom of God to come (Rev.12:10) starting in the third heavens. In successive stages Satan is driven back, driven down, and down, and down with greater and greater limitation of his sphere of power. This enrages him and is a cause of the great tribulation of three and one half years.The key is in the hands of the overcoming saints of God by the power of the blood, the word of thier testimony, and the not loving of their own soul lives even unto death for the sake of God's eternal purpose. That is true. I agree that this is an error.Many also do not see that it is the first rapture of the collective Manchild which triggers the balance of power to be shifted in favor of God's good angels. So Michael and his army of angels then drive down the Devil and his angels. The rapture of the collective Manchild of overcomers must preceed this. From an examination of the judged kingdom of the Antichrist it appears to be capitalist in nature rather than Communist. If you read Revelation 17 and 18 I think you should see more aspects akin to a market economy than to a socialist one. No one can buy or sell anything unless they have the mark of the beast.I do not see a socialistic ditribution of wealth. Rather I see a extreme market theocratic economy based on the worship of the Antichrist as god. You have no quoted the verse entirely. I think that if you quote the relevant passage entirely, you should see that most likely the Jews are included in the persecution:"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus" (12:17)1.) Those who keep the commandments of God would indicate the religious Jews.2.) Those who have the testimony of Jesus would be the Christians.The same thing should be understood in 14:12 -"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (14:12)The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke should be enough to prove that the last days will also be days of terrible persecution of the Jews as well as the Christians. I may comment on this latter. Do you have a response to what I have shared this far?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This was not a good note. I am mixing up two different things.
This was not a good note to explain the nature of the economic system under the Antichrist.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

My only comment is that there is one and only one resurrection of the church/saints/elect of Jesus. To try and somehow skew chapter 12 of Rev into a rapture is totally unsupported by the text. You would need language such as you see in I Corinthians 15:51,2 or Mark 13:28 in order to claim a resurrection and it's just not anywhere else relative to another resurrection.

It occured to me that I need to qualify my last statement in that there was evidently a resurrection of the Old Testament saints after the death of Jesus when he descended into the lower parts of the earth. The text I'm referring to is Ephesians 4:7-9. Couple this with Matthew 27:52 and 53 after the crucifixion when graves were opened and a resurrection occured. This resurrection appears to apply to the OT saints and has nothing to do with the prophecies of Revelation concerning the latter days of the apocalypse.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

It is not a matter of skewing. It is a matter of a careful examination of the facts as they are presented in Scripture. The resurrection and rapture of the Manchild preceeds the resurrection and rapture of the majority of the saints.First Corinthians 15:51,52 does assure us that all the believers will not be in "sleep" at the time of Christ's coming. And it assures us that we all will be changed. It does not state that all shall be dealt with in this way at the same time.The resurrection and the rapture of the Manchild in Revelation 12 is before the great tribulation starts. The resurrection and rapture of rest of the majority of the believers in chapter 14 verses 14 through 16, is towards the end of the great tribulation.It should be normal that all believers would be ready for rapture by being overcomers. But because the majority of believers are not those who overcome, there is this difference. The fault is not in the Lord's promise. The fault is in the fact that the majority of believers do not cooperate with God's economy to be made ready for rapture.Before I go into the details to further prove that there is a difference in timing, you should grasp the priniciple of "he who overcomes" - (Rev.2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21). We would first have to discuss this principle of the overcomers. If you can grasp this principle of overcoming then it should then be little problem to see that the resurrection and rapture of a remnant of saints who overcame while they were alive, preceeds the resurection and rapture of the greater majority of the believers.The word "overcomer" is not in the Bible. The closest thing we see to it is "we more than conquer" in Romans 8:37.We do see in the letter to the seven churches seven distinct promises of a reward to "he who overcomes ...". So to be one who overcomes we may say is an "overcomer"Now, this is what you must understand and understand well:To be an overcomer is not to rise above the standard. It is to be AT the standard. To be an overcomer is not to be somehow super. It is to be normal. It is normal that God's saints should not be defeated but should overcome. It is typical that only a minority overcome and that most saints are below the standard in enjoying God's grace.To be an overcomer is not to be an elite group. It is to be normally up to the standard that God expects of those who cooperate with His grace.To those who overcome is promised a reward. Eternal redemption is a gift. Reward in the kingdom is just that, a reward for those deemed worthy to receive it.The Manchild who is raptured early is not some elite group of believers who have died. It is a group of normal enjoyers of God's grace who cooperated normally with God's salvation. They are rewarded with an early resurrection and rapture which is the catalyst to put into motion the events which bring about the great tribulation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It appears to be a big subject however too me the man child in kjv Rev chapter 12 appears to be Jesus.The Church is usually referred to as the bride of Christ that she has washed her robes in Christ not referred to as the man child.Like the door opens for the rapture (the marriage supper once) then its closed. Those that are marytred for refusing to worship the dragon the image of the beast or to take the mark will be resurrected too at the end of the great tribulation and that too me concludes the first resurrection. kjv rev 20:5-6.As far as rapture there is also the two prophets that will die and come back to life rising bodily back up to heaven before the martryed saints are resurrected back to life.I don't see any other rapture going on other than the old testament saints that were bodily resurrected thus to me they all are a part of the first resurrection. I see Rev 14 the reaping of the earth a part of the first resurrection Saints. Is this what you mean that there is many different instances that are all part of the first resurrection?The Saints and those that didn't take the Mark and yet lived thru the great tribulation too me are to be part of the second resurrection after the thousand year reign of Christ.I agree the first resurrection saints will live and reign with Christ for those thousand years but simply don't see them mentioned as the man child.I thought the woman in rev chapter 12 was Israel and the place she was to fly to was Petra a place prepared for her but agree that the dragon will go after the saints that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus. kjv rev 12:17It says she will flee into the wilderness almost 3.5 years to be sheltered from the dragon. As Christians were joint heirs in Christ thus of her seed thru Abraham.Gal.3:29 - And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life:he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.Edited by reversespin, : No reason given.

That's correct. Note also that the manchild is delivered of the woman upon whose head is a crown of 12 stars. The woman is Israel, the nation of 12 tribes from which the manchild was born and the dragon/Satan tried to kill the manchild (Harod killing all the children in order to get Jesus) and fails. The manchild is resurrected (after crucifixion). This is clearly allegorical of Israel and the messianic manchild, Jesus.Note also that Satan tries to do in the woman/Israel and again fails, so what does he then do? He goes after the remnant of her seed who have the testimony of Jesus. These people are us, the followers of Jesus, i.e. Christians and he goes after them. Note in the very next chapter where Satan's beast kingdom makes war with those same saints/Christians and overcomes them, again clearly the tribulation, that same tribulation that preceeds the rapture in the Olivet Discourse, Mark 13:24-28 which is ongoing as we speak in much of the world, especially the Islamic and Communist totalitarian regimes.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.