Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 59 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,929 Year: 4,186/9,624 Month: 1,057/974 Week: 16/368 Day: 16/11 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Book of Daniel - Greece or Rome ?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 18 (406734)
06-22-2007 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by kbertsche
06-21-2007 10:21 AM


Re: Chapters 7 and 8
quote:
But we agree that Daniel 7 matches well with Daniel 2. Daniel 2 speaks of kingdoms and Daniel 7 of kings. So the terms seem to be somewhat interchangeable in Daniel.
No, I DON'T agree with that and I never said that I did.
quote:
But if they are treated as one in BOTH, as I suggest, then we get a fairly good match. This gives a more consistent interpretation. (Medo-Persia viewed as a dual, unequal union in both descriptions)
You get a vague match based on the interpretation of one characteristic. And you still have to assume an exact match between Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 even though one speaks of kingdoms and the other of kings.
quote:
But if they are treated as one in BOTH, as I suggest, then we get a fairly good match. This gives a more consistent interpretation. (Medo-Persia viewed as a dual, unequal union in both descriptions)
But my interpretation is consistent with the fact that chapter 8 is claimed to be an end-times prophecy - something that contradicts your interpetation.
My interpetation aso matches the statue of Daniel 2 to the prophecies better. You assume that it is an Empire mentioned ONLY in those two, vague and obscure chapters. Yet why should the divided Empire of Daniel 2 not be the divided Empire of chapters 8 and 11 ? The ONLY divided Empire in the text ? As I point otu above the ruler of Daniel 10-12 is a good match for both "little horns" yet your interpretation must leave at least one without a clear match.
So not only do I avoid a more serious problem than any you have raised against my views what I lose on one match is more than made up for in other areas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 06-21-2007 10:21 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2162 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 17 of 18 (406761)
06-22-2007 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
06-22-2007 2:33 AM


Re: Chapters 7 and 8
No, it's quite simple. You assumed that the 4th Empire was NOT Greece to argue that the little horns were different people. I did NOT assume that the 4h Empire was Greece at all, that was the conclusion I came to AFTER identifying the two little horns as the same individual.
No, I did not. That would be circular logic. Here's my approach:
1) I conclude that the "little horns" in ch 7 and 8 are different based on their descriptions (e.g. one comes after 10 horns, the other comes from 4 horns).
2) The little horn of ch 8 comes from Greece, according to the text.
3) I conclude that the second empire matches best with the Medo-Persian ram, and the third with the Greek goat, based on their descriptions.
(Sorry for compressing/concatenating this in my first message and confusing you as to the approach.)
Here's your approach, as I see it:
1) You assume that the two "little horns" are the same.
2) This forces your conclusion that the 4th empire is Greece.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2007 2:33 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by PaulK, posted 06-22-2007 3:30 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 18 of 18 (406823)
06-22-2007 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by kbertsche
06-22-2007 8:35 AM


Re: Chapters 7 and 8
quote:
No, I did not. That would be circular logic. Here's my approach:
1) I conclude that the "little horns" in ch 7 and 8 are different based on their descriptions (e.g. one comes after 10 horns, the other comes from 4 horns).
Your example misses an important nuance. The little horn of chapter 7 grows AMONGST 10 horns. In chapter 8 it grows FROM one of four horns. The conventional interpretation is that the four horns are the oriinal split whiles the 10 horns are a succession of kings. This is consisent with the two little horns being the same individual.
quote:
Here's your approach, as I see it:
1) You assume that the two "little horns" are the same.
2) This forces your conclusion that the 4th empire is Greece.
You should already know that I have raised other points. Firstly that chapter 8 is expressly stated to be a prophecy of the end times, thus ruling out a later empire. Secondly that chapters 10-12 also indicate that the final ruler will be from the Greek Empire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by kbertsche, posted 06-22-2007 8:35 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024