Jazzns,
I have "a life" whether I am here participating in the discussions or whether I am away doing something else. Now that I am here I'll begin to reply to some of your comments on two posts specifically.
It is true that the concept of adultry as a sin is present in both the old and new testament. But this is in contradiction to the actual description of the events in question. Part of the justification for the genocide in Numbers is because the Israelites were seduced. Then as spoils of war they keep only the virgin girls for themselves.
The Midianite men were killed because they instigated the seduction. They devised a state sponsered mass temptation and sexual seduction of Israel males which was unprovoked. In the scheme they used sex as a weopon.
This mass seduction was devised by the corrupted Gentile prophet Balaam. He advised the Midianites how they could trick Israel to turn away from Jehovah their God (Num. 25:1,6). Numbers 31:16 shows that the Medianite women followed Balaam’s advice as to how to corrupt Israel by sexual sins which would follow in idolatry of the fertility diety of the Midianites.
It appears to me that the women who were personally involved in the plot were killed. They had commited pre-meditated mass adultery. I don’t think that they were forced by their husbands. I suspect the Midianite society actually conspired this mass lewdness and deception as they saw military attacks were not effective.
Whether this was genocide against the Midianites is questionable. Scholars believe the Midianite confederacy of tribes covered a larger area. While I’m not sure the intent was genocide it was a severe judgment.
Even so there was mercy of 32,000 young females were sparred. I totally reject the idea that because Moses (not explicitly God) told the soldiers to keep them for themselves, that this indicates some kind of orgy. They were instructed to remain outside the campt for seven days for ritual and practical cleansing. That is not the appropriate circumstances for the male soldiers to conduct a mass orgy.
It is also unlikely that the Jews would have wanted to be led astray by lust again from Midianite females as that was the very cause of the vengence in the first place. And in the sin of giving into lewdness at the previous Midianite trickery 24,000 some men died in the punishing plague. Were the Jews then so soon forgetful that their fornication with the Midianite women was judged by God? God didn’t let them go scott free before. Why should they expect that fornicating with Midianite women would be pleasing to Jehovah this time?
Aside from this the girls were most likely too young. The test for virginity only required visual confirmation involving such things as apparel, hair styles, and jewerly. There were societal symbols of virgin or non-virgin women in the ancient Near East. These symbols were important to succession of property ownership.
The Jews also should have remembered that in the incident of the Golden Calf their wild and lewd “worship” and revelry had been punished by God. Why would they sin again against God with an orgy to celebrate divine victory over the Midianites?
The Midianites were judged for their hostile, un-provoked, pre-meditated, family destroying, marriage ruining scheme to conduct a state financied travel and mass seduction of Israelite males.
From the numbers of Israelite troops involed in the battle one research remarks:
The number of women who would have been executed for their personal involvement in the deceptive and malicious treachery might be estimated from the number of girls spared. If the 32k girls were spared, we might estimate the number of boys at around 20k (infant mortality for males is 30% higher than for females), and with a 3-4 kids/family ratio, we get around 12,000 sets of parents. This 12,000 number accords well with the troop count and estimates of the number of women who approached the Israelites in the deception of Baal Peor. [And this also confronts us with the sobering fact that the number of adult Israelites who died in the plague of judgment”24,000”roughly matches the number of adult Midianite deaths, under this scenario. Israel did not get off ”scot free’ from this horror . they were the subject of God’s judgment first.]
To divorce the virginity of the captive girls from sexuality is pure apologetics not Bible.
Regardless, there is no charge that the girls were to be raped either from Moses or from God. You already conceded that no such verse specifies that.
The distribution of the spoil records that of 32,000 young girls one half were to belong to the soldiers (16,000). More than one commentator has indicated that for the other half to be ditributed to the nomadic Israelites would have been more of a hardship upon them and an indication of an act of mercy towards the young Midianite girls.
An 18th century footnote to the historical writings of Josephus remaek this:
“The slaughter of all the Midianite women that had prostituted themselves to the lewd Israelites, and the preservation of those that had not been guilty therein; the last of which were no fewer than thirty-two thousand . and both by the particular command of God, are highly remarkable, and shew that, even in nations otherwise for their wickedness doomed to destruction, the innocent were sometimes providentially taken care of, and delivered from that destruction”
To claim that the slaughter of baby boys was humane euthanasia is just plain sick especially in light of that fact that the article is trying to justify not only the actions but the god who commanded them.
On the other hand it may be hard for you and I to imagine that a society's depths of degradation could warrant such a severe quarintine. You can assume that your ethics exceeds those of the God of the Bible. As for me I will agree with Abraham’s assessment when he interceeded for the inhabitants of Sodom -
”Shall the judge of all the earth not do justly” (Genesis 18:25)
I will have to continue latter. But for one, I would be suspicious if I read nothing in the Bible as God’s action, that I did not agree with. I would be suspicious of anyone who liked everything he or she read in the Bible without exception.
I may not like the record of Numbers 31 in all of its details. But Numbers 31 is thankfully not the only chapter in the Bible. I am willing to place some of the harsher matters aside until I mature in knowing God’s ways to apprehend them from God’s point of view.
I’m not finished replying yet. I’m called away.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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