If the strength wasn't in the hair, why did Samson say it was? Why didn’t he say that the LORD will strengthen me as long as I don’t cut my hair?
That is exactly what he told her. He said he was a Nazirite from birth.
If you cut your hair, you are no longer a Nazirite.
When i said to you earlier "the strength is in the hair dude" I was just making light of it. I hope you didn't take that seriously.
then why did Samson not say that his strength was in the LORD?
When you say your a Nazirite, you are with the Lord.
If God would only strengthen Samson if he kept the long hair, a sign of a Nazarite, then why didn’t God leave him when he broke any other Nazarite vow?
I am not sure he broke any other vows.
We can discuss it.
Remember I told you, I am not some kind of bible expert or a literalist. I am learning as we go. I have a pretty good knowledge, but far from being an expert.
If the strength wasn't in his hair then how did he manage to carry off the huge city gates and take them all the way to the top of the hill?
Isn't this part of another story?
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16:3 Arose - Perhaps warned by God in a dream; or rather by the checks of his own conscience. Went away - The watch - men not expecting him 'till morning, and therefore being now retired into the sides, or upper part of the gate - house, as the manner now is, to get some rest, to fit themselves for their hard service intended in the morning: nor durst they pursue him, whom they now again perceived to have such prodigious strength, and courage; and to be so much above the fear of them, that he did not run away with all speed, but went leisurely. Hebron - Which was above twenty miles from Gaza. And Samson did this not out of vain ostentation, but as an evidence of his great strength, for the encouragement of its people to join with him vigorously; and for the greater terror and contempt of the Philistines. It may seem strange that Samson immediately after so foul a sin should have courage and strength from God, for so great a work. But first, It is probable, that Samson had in some measure repented of his sin, and begged of God pardon and assistance. This singular strength and courage was not in itself a grace, but a gift, and it was such a gift as did not so much depend on the disposition of his mind, but on the right ordering of his body, by the rule given to him, and others of that order.
quote:
16:1-3 Hitherto Samson's character has appeared glorious, though uncommon. In this chapter we find him behaving in so wicked a manner, that many question whether or not he were a godly man. But the apostle has determined this, Heb 11:32. By adverting to the doctrines and examples of Scripture, the artifices of Satan, the deceitfulness of the human heart, and the methods in which the Lord frequently deals with his people, we may learn useful lessons from this history, at which some needlessly stumble, while others cavil and object. The peculiar time in which Samson lived may account for many things, which, if done in our time, and without the special appointment of Heaven, would be highly criminal. And there might have been in him many exercises of piety, which, if recorded, would have reflected a different light upon his character. Observe Samson's danger. Oh that all who indulge their sensual appetites in drunkenness, or any fleshly lusts, would see themselves thus surrounded, way-laid, and marked for ruin by their spiritual enemies! The faster they sleep, the more secure they feel, the greater their danger. We hope it was with a pious resolution not to return to his sin, that he rose under a fear of the danger he was in. Can I be safe under this guilt? It was bad that he lay down without such checks; but it would have been worse, if he had laid still under them.
After reading that I don't know. To me it doesn't sound plausible, or if it did happen, then all the information is not there, and many details are left out as to why.
Well, I think this is where your logic breaks down. If he drew his strength from the LORD, then why would he not pray to God to strengthen him before the Philistines put him in jail and then gouged his eyes out? Why didn't he pray to Yahweh when he was on the way to jail, slaughter the Philistines, and escape? If God would only strengthen Samson when his hair grew back then it just highlights that the ”Birth Hair’ argument is flawed!
Irrelevant, in the story he did not call out to God, until the end, and that is when God restored his power. To ask the question, why didn't he pray before is silly, because we know when he prayed.
note: it is not necessary to have your "birth hair" to be a Nazirite, or to be right with God, but it was a symbol for Samson. He was a special Nazirite to save Israel. But he blew it.
So the bad in his life led him back to God. I can understand that. I find God in it.
If the LORD wouldn't strengthen Samson until his hair was long,
I never said anything to that effect.
I said the opposite, explaining that verse where his hair grows back, but he does not have power.
Now, AS FAR AS YOU are concerned the strength MUST have been in his hair because now the hair has gone he has no superhuman strength.
The hair that had never been cut from birth. As far as I am concerned, he will never have that hair again, he will have to grow new hair, which will not have been on his head from birth.
This is the crux of the argument, if the Philistines believed that a long haired Samson is extremely dangerous, why would they have allowed his hair to grow back? I think that this possibility is so absurd, that it is a very good reason for rejecting the historicity of this particular event, it reeks of folk lore.
Like thirty times now, I have shown a way around this. The Philistines did not just think it was his hair, period. They thought it was because he was never shaven from birth.
17 He told her all his heart, and said to her, "No razor has ever come on my head; for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb. If I am shaved, then my strength will go from me, and I will become weak, and be like any other man."
I think I pasted that verse several times now. They go together, those 2 sentences, in one verse, to explain where his power came from, and what the Philistines thought about his power. You cannot ignore certain words of the verse to suite your arguement.
I see your argument, but there are verses where he carries out superhuman feats and God isn't mentioned, so there is at least a POSSIBILITY that he can be superhuman without God.
I don't think so, because he is Nazirite from birth. He is always with the Lord. I do think that many details are left out. He wasn't a Nazirite by choice, like other Nazirites. It was a gift from God to be that way, and he destroyed that gift.
I think only John the Baptist was the other Nazirite from birth.
He posessed a special gift also.
All I can do is present to you the text that mentions a superhuman Samson without the power of God upon him, if you choose to add to the text then that's up to you.
Am I adding to the text by pointing out that he was a Nazirite from birth, so he is always with the Lord?
Were several different authors involved, were certain words or phrases added later, can we see any obvious disjointed passages, why was God absent from some superhuman events, can we place Samson into a real historical context, does the story contain any etiologies, anachronisms, and so on?
Have you ever wondered what God was trying to teach us through this story?
I don't know about anyone else but that would drive me mad, how can anyone just be happy to research the Bible in such a way. I am not saying anyone here has this approach; I am speaking in general terms.
It's good to nit-pick, but don't let it drive you mad. Instead ask God yourself what is meant by it. It's only a small piece of a very large puzzle. Do you believe in God?
If it is then why would God abandon Samson when he gets his head shaved but not abandon him when he breaks countless other Nazarite vows?
That was the specific vow mentioned by the angel, not the other 2.
There are only 3 vows to voluntary become a Nazirite.
Samson was not a Nazirite voluntarily. He had a purpose in life to save Israel.
If the bible is telling us this story, and Samson is breaking vows, then it must have been meant for him only. It was plainly obvious what a Nazirite was, and how he was supposed to behave.
It would be like me telling you 2+2=5, right after I told you the answer was 4.
Samson was different that other Nazirites.
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6:1-21 The word Nazarite signifies separation. Some were appointed of God, before their birth, to be Nazarites all their days, as Samson and John the Baptist. But, in general, it was a vow of separation from the world and devotedness to the services of religion, for a limited time, and under certain rules, which any person might make if they pleased. A Nazarite is spoken of as well known; but his obligation is brought to a greater certainty than before. That the fancies of superstitious men might not multiply the restraints endlessly, God gives them rules. They must not drink wine or strong drink, nor eat grapes. Those who separate themselves to God, must not gratify the desires of the body, but keep it under. Let all Christians be very moderate in the use of wine and strong drink; for if the love of these once gets the mastery of a man, he becomes an easy prey to Satan. The Nazarites were to eat nothing that came of the vine; this may teach the utmost care to avoid sin, and all that borders upon it, and leads to it, or may be a temptation to us. They must not cut their hair. They must neither poll their heads, nor shave their beards; this was the mark of Samson being a Nazarite. This signified neglect of the body, and of the ease and ornament of it. Those who separate themselves to God, must keep their consciences pure from dead works, and not touch unclean things. All the days of their separation they must be holy to the Lord. This was the meaning of those outward observances, and without this they were of no account. No penalty or sacrifice was appointed for those who wilfully broke their vow of being Nazarites; they must answer another day for such profane trifling with the Lord their God; but those were to be relieved who did not sin wilfully. There is nothing in Scripture that bears the least resemblance to the religious orders of the church of Rome, except these Nazarites. But mark the difference, or rather how completely opposed! The religious of that church are forbidden to marry; but no such restriction is laid upon the Nazarites. They are commanded to abstain from meats; but the Nazarites might eat any food allowed other Israelites. They are not generally forbidden wine, not even on their fasting days; but the Nazarites might not have wine at any time. Their vow is lasting, even to the end of their lives; the Nazarites' vow was only for a limited time, at their own will; and in certain cases not unless allowed by husbands or parents. Such a thorough difference there is between rules of man's invention and those directed in Scripture, Let us not forget that the Lord Jesus is not only our Surety, but also our example. For his sake we must renounce worldly pleasures, abstain from fleshy lusts, be separate from sinners, make open profession of our faith, moderate natural affections, be spiritually-minded, and devoted to God's service, and desirous to be an example all around us.
It says, ”if my head was shaved, my strength would leave me’. Wouldn’t it make more sense to think that if his head wasn’t shaved then his strength would return?
Not really since he was 1 of only 2 people to be a Nazirite from birth. The other had not been born yet.
Samson did not say his strength would leave him forever, so how would the Philistines know?
Because it was his "birth hair" that they were concerned about (chuckle)
Remember to, they believed that their god had delivered Samson to them. So they were victorious. Samson's power was gone for good.
Makes perfect sense, because the power was indeed gone, even though his hair grew back.
The power returned when his hair was long!
When it was long, or when it was long AND he reconciled with God?
Which one is more important?
Well, I had a class of 25 sixteen and seventeen year olds who concluded exactly the same as I did, that the Philistines could not have been that dumb, therefore it is a good reason to reject the historicity of this particular narrative.
But you taught them to believe this. Did you even mention my arguement at all?
It was probably in your presentation.
And thank you, you just provided proof of what I said in another thread, that our education system is down playing the bible, and leading our children into a state of dis-belief.
As far as they were concerned it came from his hair. Samson even said that, so why would they go getting al deep and philosophical about it when it is a very explicit claim?
Deep and philosophical?
17 He told her all his heart, and said to her, "No razor has ever come on my head; for I have been a Nazirite to God from my mother's womb. If I am shaved, then my strength will go from me, and I will become weak, and be like any other man."
There very little to get philosophical about in that verse. Ther are maybe but a few points.
1 all his heart (he meant it)
2 No razor has ever come on my head(that means he had the same hair from birth)
3 for I have been (because)
4 a Nazirite to God from my mothers womb ( he was with God from the womb)
5 If I am shaved, then my strength will go from me, and I will become weak, and be like any other man." (in other words, he will blow it, all those years without shaving his head, he can never get that back, he will never be that special Nazirite again)
Pretty straight forward.
Yes, and they believed Samson’s power was in his hair, it was what they were told by Delilah.
That's not all they were told, why leave it out?
3 because he did not regain his strength after it grew back.
How else did he pull down Dagon’s temple?
By reconciling with God.
It is just one piece of evidence, the entire tale of Samson (from chaps. 13-16) is rife with illogical statements.
Or, your not interpreting it correctly.
The notes in the quote boxes were from this page:
Judges 16:1 One day Samson went to Gaza, where he saw a prostitute and went in to spend the night with her.
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