Could this really have happened?

Show us in the Bible where it says one single solitary thing about his strength being destroyed "forever". Chapter and verse. Uh... it grows back naturally. Of course he did. He used it to destroy the temple and kill all the Philistines. Nope. That's not what it says at all - not one single, solitary, blessed mother-f**king word about it being "gone for good". You are the one who claims it is relevant. You are the one who needs to back up that claim. Give us chapter and verse where it says the "birth hair" has any significance at all. Give us chapter and verse where it says his strength would be lost forever. Congratulations. You've made it to page one. That's the point of the thread. I have no idea what that means. Can you translate it into English?

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I find it ironic that people can believe this story, could possibly be true or factual over most of the other religions stories, but they work almost the same waysboth stories work just like the stories about greek heroes and kings, as well as any folk story written in the last 300 years!RR, sorry but this is just amazing to me that you could be this adament over folk tales that every religion has a form of, but you deem this one to be something other than a folk tale
its a myth just like hercules is or persus, or johny appleseed
its fiction

Message 53
I have done that all already, you just don't accept it, and your not giving a reason why. Now your repeating yourself. We have been through this already.If you started growing your hair long from today for 3 years, and 3 years from now, someone said to you, "wow, what long hair, how long have you been growing it?" Your answer would be 3 years.If you never cut your hair from birth, and someone came up to you and said, "wow, what long hair, how long have you been growing it?" Your answer would be, from birth. "birth hair" No, he got his strength when he reconciled with the Lord. There was an unknown period of time where had no power, and had hair, and the Philistines were aware of this. The Philistines died inside the temple, not really knowing who what were or why Samson was able to do what he did. Yes it does.
And that is what happened. I have done that already.
Message 53
Add that facts of the story, and make LOGICAL conclusion, and a not stupid assertion. You really don't understand this?

I guess your reading comnprehension is low.Please point out in this thread where I make an assertion that this story is true.Please find the line where I express how I feel about the story.What is the topic?Until today, I used to think that everyone in EVC was smart.

as to samson. the hair isn't the source of his strength. god is. he must repent and allow his mark to return for god to forgive him. perhaps they didn't think god would forgive him? or perhaps they thought that it was having all the hair he'd ever had that made him strong. i haven't the foggiest. but people never consider things like that. ever noticed how stupid people are now?

No, you have not done that. Please stop claiming that you have.You have shown that Samson never had a haircut. You have not shown that his strength would be gone forever if he got a haircut. That is not in the Bible. (It is also nonsensical, since his strength did come back.)You asked, "... how would he get back his hair that was with him since birth?" and I answered, "... it grows back naturally." Do you really not understand that it's the same hair? Whether you cut off one millimeter or one inch or whether you shave it down to the scalp, when it grows back, it's still the same hair. The phrase "from birth" is irrelevant. It's the same hair. He got it back. Show us chapter and verse where it says the Philistines knew that Samson's strength came from God and not from his hair.You seem to be suggesting that Samson obtained a completely new and separate source of strength when he called on God. That is not what the Bible says.If that was so, why does it even mention his hair growing back?

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Not when his hair grew back.
One of the facts mentioned in Message 53I think your the one who doesn't understand.
Get a hair cut today and tomorrow. Take one piece of hair from both days, and hold them side by side. You have 2 pieces of hair, they cannot be the same.They may have came from the same place, but they are not exactly the same, that is what I have been saying throughout this thread.Not cutting his hair from birth was a symbol of who he was. Once it was cut, he broke that symbol, and could never be that person again, unless the Lord allowed it. The Philistines knew that Nazirites had not recived haircuts, and it was a symbol of who they were. The Philistines thought it was from that symbol of uncut hair from birth (or birth hair) that he drew his strength. We know that it was from God.He lost his power from God once he betrayed God, and told the girl, not when his hair was cut, but the Philistines could not have known exactly when he lost his power, so it appeared to them to be lost when his hair was cut.Then his hair grew back, but his power did not return immediatly. It only returned when he reconciled with God. The Philistines probably had no idea how his power returned. Or we don't know what the Philistines thought, because the bible doesn't mention it, and they are all dead. That statement you made, has nothing to do with the statement I made.
Not once did I ever claim that the Philistines thought his power was from God. I think I mentioned that about 5 times already. Not a seperate source of strength. It was the same strength given to him by God, the same God. God gave Samson the power back when he repented and called for it.28 Samson called to Yahweh, and said, "Lord Yahweh, remember me, please, and strengthen me, please, only this once, God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes."Why would Samson say Lord remember me?Because the Lord forgot about him, when the Philistines were gouging his eyes out. Samson had not strength to defend himself, and the Philistines knew it. Another fact from Message 53The bible mentions his hair growing back, to show us that his hair grew back, and his power didn't. When his hair grew back, he was still in chains. So we have a situation where Samson has hair, and no strength. Something the Philistines could plainly see. They had believed that his power would go from him forever, and were not worried about his hair growing back, and they were right. Becasue there he was, with hair, and no power.So the "same hair" your claiming had nothing to do with his power. It was the symbol of his hair that had never had a razor to it, from birth (birth hair) was a convenant from God.Back in chaptor 13:5 for, behold, you shall conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb: and he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines."Obviously no razor coming to his head, had to do with him saving Israel. How did he try to save Israel? With his strength, given to him by God. The strength was given to help Samson save Israel.

Have you even read this thread?

Is killing someone coming into contact with a dead person?When Samson struck them, they were still alive.The Nazirite vow involved 3 things - no alcohol, including all products of the grape vine, uncut hair for a time, and no contact with the dead:"And The Lord said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to The Lord, he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink, and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried. All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins. All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the time is completed for which he separates himself to The Lord, he shall be holy; he shall let the locks of hair of his head grow long. All the days that he separates himself to The Lord he shall not go near a dead body. Neither for his father nor for his mother, nor for brother or sister, if they die, shall he make himself unclean; because his separation to God is upon his head. All the days of his separation he is holy to The Lord." (Numbers 6:1-8 RSV)Since when does being Holy mean being non-violent in the OT?

Sorry but that is even funnier than Birth Hair. Yes, killing folk is coming into contact with dead people.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Sorry about the delay RR, If the strength wasn't in the hair, why did Samson say it was? Why didn’t he say that the LORD will strengthen me as long as I don’t cut my hair?Samson says that if his hair is shaven then he is as weak as any other man. If his strength was from God, and God would leave him if he cut his hair, then why did Samson not say that his strength was in the LORD?If God would only strengthen Samson if he kept the long hair, a sign of a Nazarite, then why didn’t God leave him when he broke any other Nazarite vow?If the strength wasn't in his hair then how did he manage to carry off the huge city gates and take them all the way to the top of the hill? Well, I think this is where your logic breaks down. If he drew his strength from the LORD, then why would he not pray to God to strengthen him before the Philistines put him in jail and then gouged his eyes out? Why didn't he pray to Yahweh when he was on the way to jail, slaughter the Philistines, and escape? If God would only strengthen Samson when his hair grew back then it just highlights that the ”Birth Hair’ argument is flawed!Regarding your argument that the hair was nothing more than a ruse, that just takes us back to the initial argument. If the LORD wouldn't strengthen Samson until his hair was long, how would anyone know this, especially since Samson did not reveal this?Now, imagine that you are a Philistine, and this superman is running amok in your territory. You learn that the only way to subdue this man is to shave his head, you shave his head and he does indeed lose his strength. Now, AS FAR AS YOU are concerned the strength MUST have been in his hair because now the hair has gone he has no superhuman strength. When he has been lying in your jail shaven, he has shown no signs of superhuman strength, so surely you ensure that his hair doesn't grow because the last time he had hair he kicked your ass.This is the crux of the argument, if the Philistines believed that a long haired Samson is extremely dangerous, why would they have allowed his hair to grow back? I think that this possibility is so absurd, that it is a very good reason for rejecting the historicity of this particular event, it reeks of folk lore.I see your argument, but there are verses where he carries out superhuman feats and God isn't mentioned, so there is at least a POSSIBILITY that he can be superhuman without God. All I can do is present to you the text that mentions a superhuman Samson without the power of God upon him, if you choose to add to the text then that's up to you. But, for me, it makes the construction of the story far more interesting. For example, when one incident mentions 'the spirit of God' coming upon Samson and another verse doesn't, it stimulates my interest into wondering why this is so. Were several different authors involved, were certain words or phrases added later, can we see any obvious disjointed passages, why was God absent from some superhuman events, can we place Samson into a real historical context, does the story contain any etiologies, anachronisms, and so on?This is what biblical studies is all about IMO, if a researcher doesn't break down the text and then come up with a range of possibilities, then the are doing themselves and the Bible a disservice. To simply say that the power of God is mentioned in some passages that relate a superhuman feat must mean that the power of God was present in the passages that don't mention the power of God.I don't know about anyone else but that would drive me mad, how can anyone just be happy to research the Bible in such a way. I am not saying anyone here has this approach; I am speaking in general terms. Okay, the angel says,Jdg 13:5 because you will conceive and give birth to a son. No razor may be used on his head, because the boy is to be a Nazirite,It has been prophesised that Samson will be a Nazirite, and because of this prophecy the family know that they cannot cut his hair, since Nazirites are not permitted to do so. Therefore, whenever his hair is cut it is going to be the hair he had from birth, at least that is what I think you are saying. If it is then why would God abandon Samson when he gets his head shaved but not abandon him when he breaks countless other Nazarite vows? I understand what you are saying, but I am honestly having trouble reconciling it with the text, and with the rest of the Hebrew Bible. Ah, but how do we know this? If anything the text suggests that Samson’s hair MUST be kept short, here’s what he says to Delilah: It says, ”if my head was shaved, my strength would leave me’. Wouldn’t it make more sense to think that if his head wasn’t shaved then his strength would return?Samson did not say his strength would leave him forever, so how would the Philistines know? The power returned when his hair was long! Well, I had a class of 25 sixteen and seventeen year olds who concluded exactly the same as I did, that the Philistines could not have been that dumb, therefore it is a good reason to reject the historicity of this particular narrative. As far as they were concerned it came from his hair. Samson even said that, so why would they go getting al deep and philosophical about it when it is a very explicit claim? Yes, and they believed Samson’s power was in his hair, it was what they were told by Delilah. No I’m not, I am flabbergasted that they would be so stupid. How do you know this? How do you know what they believed? Where is there even a hint of this in the text? The problem is that there is no support for what you believe about the Philistines.From your post to Ringo: The whole point is that they wouldn’t have let it grow back, hence we have a flawed tale. How else did he pull down Dagon’s temple? Hooray!!!!!Now you are seeing the point of the thread. Since it is difficult to imagine that every Philistine in Palestine was retarded, this is evidence against the historicity of the event. It is just one piece of evidence, the entire tale of Samson (from chaps. 13-16) is rife with illogical statements.Brian.

Hi RR, From message 15:RR: Well then it must have been God. I'll put it down to an oversight, no harm done.Brian.

So, how did he manage to carry off the city gates without God? Repent of what? Why would Philistines take any notice of a Hebrew God? Perhaps they though he came from Krypton? Thanks for your input anyway. They do in fairytales. Indeed.But what about the Philistines?Brian.

Message 88RR: It's what they believed, what they did, and what happened. What's the problem? Brian.

And that is still as irrelevant as it was all the other times you said it. In case I haven't mentioned it before: The Philistines didn't know that. They thought his strength was in his hair. Watch me do my imitation of Rrhain:(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you?Take a loaf of bread and cut one slice today and another slice tomorrow. Take one piece of bread from both days, and hold them side by side. You have 2 pieces of bread from the same loaf. It's the same bread. Which the Philistines did not know about. Which the Philistines did not know. Chapter and verse, please. One more time, give us chapter and verse where it says that the Philistines thought anything other than his strength was in his hair. But the Philistines did not know. They acted on what they knew, not on what we know. Exactly. Which is why they believed his strength was in his hair. And why they would not have let it grow back. Which the Philistines did not know. Since they removed his strength by cutting off his hair, they would "probably" assume that the hair growing back would return his strength. Hasn't somebody mentioned that already in this thread? But you claimed that the strength was gone "forever" when Samson got his hair cut. If his strength was gone forever and then he got more strength, it had to be different strength. The old strength was gone forever, remember?Look at the bread analogy. If you cut off a slice and eat it, it's gone forever. If you eat the whole loaf, it's gone forever. If you get another loaf of bread, it's a different loaf. The Philistines knew he had no strength because they had just cut off his hair and they thought his strength was in his hair. They didn't know anything about God "forgetting" him, so that couldn't have anything to do with their actions. The Philistines could see, but Samson couldn't. He was blind, so he couldn't use his strength effectively against the Philisitnes until they put him between the pillars. From the Philistines' viewpoint, it didn't matter exactly when his strength returned because he hadn't had an oppurtunity to use it.(I hope Brian isn't upset with his thread turning into a comedy routine. )

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