Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life

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Well you can tell everyone you heard it here first. Man in Romans 7. Toddling along either unconcerned about God and his law or thinking that by following the 10 commandments (for instance) that he is okay.

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Unfortunately, I heard nothing.Since you still don't seem to understand what Paul is talking about in Romans 7, your explanation made no sense and I see no biblical support for what I might have understood.Still no path laid out.

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There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

You mean this? What is your biblical basis for this? This isn't very clear. "The law is about the outward things we do". Could you clarify. If I were to take our man made law and say "The law is about the outward things we do" I would not be making sense. "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation". It is God who leads someone to Christ. And he does so with his gospel. Doing good works may cause one to wonder as to the reason why the person did it. They may reply "Because Christ lives in me and has changed me to conform more to his image". That may cause the person to investigate. But for a person to come to Christ the person needs God to do the work.I think works are important as in the above example. But they have nothing to do with my salvation. Which is the issue being discussed here In order to fulfill the function of being a rigid body onto which componants can be fixed the engine doesn't need to work. It can fulfill the purpose of efficiently converting chemical energy into rotational energy but without a gear on the end of its crankshaft to transmit force to the transmission it is not going to result in the motorcycle going anywhere

This comes under the category of non-rocket-science. "Thou shalt not kill" is pretty straight-forwardly outward. Jesus expanded it to say don't hate each other either, but that doesn't change the primary outward nature of the law.And "thou shalt not kill" is clearly for our benefit. Our man-made law only makes sense in terms of the outward things we do. They can't arrest you for thinking about killing somebody. Our man-made law applies only to deeds/actions/behaviour. You're the one who brought up the concept of "leading someone to Christ". If you're not a good example in your behaviour (like many of the professing Chistians on this board) you are more likely to repel people from Christ. Jesus disagrees with you. He said:

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Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

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Even more explicitly, He said:

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Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Pretty straight-forward: don't take care of the poor and you're cast into the fire. Behave correctly and you get eternal life.And not one word about "beliefs".As I have been saying all along, if the behaviour is not there, the "belief" is a sham. Exactly. And a motocycle engine that doesn't go anywhere is just as useless as a "Christian" who doesn't behave like a Christian.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Ringo316,==========================
"The law" is about outward things that we do, not about what we inwardly believe, or claim to believe.
==========================Well, not completely. The last of the ten commandments was "You Shall not Covet..."Now this was a catch all. It is a commandment against a feeling, and inward motivation. It is really a commandment saying that you shall not feel that way inwardly.So some self righteous ones may think that they have kept all the other nine commandments. But God includes this tenth one which no one can escape. All have coveted or wanted jealously what another person had.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-06-2005 10:52 PM

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Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
================================It is true that these saved "sheep" are justified based on thier treatment of "these the least of My brothers." But this justification does not apply to anyone reading this discussion today.The time of this judgment is after the Lord comes to sit on the throne of His glory to judge the nations who are left alive after the last few years of this age before He establishes His millennial kingdom.Those nations which followed the last intense rebellion against God led by the final Antichrist will persecute the people of God who are unfortunate to have to live through that time of great tribulation. These persecutors are the goats.Those nations which were considerate to the refugees among God's people who are fleeing the realm of Antichrist will be the sheep who will be saved and transfered into the millennial kingdom.Jesus Christ said that some who are kind to a prophet or a righteous man would receive a prophet's reward. Right here He teaches this:"He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whoever gives to one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward" (Matt.10:41-42)The justification of the sheep in Matthew 25 is because they have been kind to the Lord's persecuted prophets, and disciples, and righteous men, and little ones, and even the least of these His brothers. This will take place during the last days of the great tribulation. And it would be extremely unwise to expect today that you could escape eternal perdition as an one who rejects Christ's gospel of salvation. We are commanded to put faith in Him as the Lord and Savior.There are three groups of people in the Matthew 25 passage:1.) Those unkind to the least of the Lord Jesus' brothers - the goats to perish.2.) Those considerate to the least of the Lord Jesus' brothers - the sheep who will people the earth during the millennial kingdom.3.) The least of these the brothers of the Lord Jesus - the persecute people of God destitute and suffering under the Antichrist.The passage refers to a transitional time just before the second coming of Christ to establish a new age on this earth. And the passage does not nullify the need for us, in the gospel age, to believe in the resurrected Christ as our Savior and judicial righteousness before God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-06-2005 11:32 PM

Ah, nice try. But not what the Bible says. Before him will be gathered ALL Nations. Not some remnant. All Nations.In fact, a reading of Matthew 25 shows that the goats will be followers of Jesus, Christians while the sheep will most likely be Atheists, Agnostics and other assorted Pagans.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That interpretation is not supported by Matthew 25. There are no "three groups of people" mentioned - only the sheep and the goats. And the only distinction between them is based on what they do - not on what they say or "believe".Some would say that that interpretation is supported by Matthew 24, but others would say that it is not supported anywhere in the Bible.In any case, the "millennial kingdom" and the "Antichrist" are not the topic of this thread. The topic is "Right Behaviour Inherits Eternal Life".

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

If right behavior gives us eternal life, then we're all up a creek without a paddle. But of course if you ask any of us if we are good, most of us will answer "yes." That's because we conveniently forget that we have all at one time, lied to our parents, friends and neighbors, taken money when we could have given it to the poor, neglected to feed the hungry, cursed people on the freeway, coveted our neighbor's cars, houses, looks, talent, intelligence, etc. and on and on. So no, as Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." We are not capable of being honest about our wrongdoings and therefore are not qualified to judge our "goodness." Only Christ's death has paid the price for our sins so we can be pure enough to see God.This message has been edited by Carico, 12-07-2005 12:33 PM

jar,================================
Ah, nice try. But not what the Bible says.Matthew 25 writes:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:Before him will be gathered ALL Nations. Not some remnant. All Nations.
==================================In the book of Revelation MANY of the nations die. Since the setting up of the throne of Christ's glory is after this time "all the nations" would mean all the nations which are left alive. It is quite logical.The words "at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory" refer to the throne of David (Luke 1:32-33), which will be in Jerusalem (See Matt. 19:28; Jeremiah 3:17).This is the time of "the restoration" and would refer to the millennial kingdom. And this judgment is at least 1,000 years before the great white throne judgment to occur AFTER the millennial kingdom. And in that judgment He is not on the throne in Jerusalem. Rather heaven and earth have fled away and the entire population of dead human beings stand suspended before Him who judges.The two judgments are separated by a length of 1,000 years - one being in the beginning of the Messianic kingdom of the Son of Man and the other being at the end of the Messianic 1,000 year kingdom.Matthew 25 therefore refers to Christ's judging of the living nations left at the time of His second coming before the millennium (Acts 10:42; 2 tim. 4:1) .It differs from His judgement of the dead at the great white throne after the millennium (Rev. 20:11-15)===================================
In fact, a reading of Matthew 25 shows that the goats will be followers of Jesus, Christians while the sheep will most likely be Atheists, Agnostics and other assorted Pagans.
===================================You started off slightly plausible. But with this latter comment you have departed into something wildly off.The goats have done what they did without knowing that it was done to Christ. The sheep also have done what they did without knowing that it was done as to Christ. So neither one bare the marks of followers of Jesus.The followers of Jesus in the passage should be "the least of these His brothers." It should also include some Jews preserved by God during that time as is indicated in Revelation chapter 7.The passage has its parallel in the parable of Matthew 13:47-50 which speaks of the same event.In the three parables of Matthew 13:44 through 50 -Verse 44 concerns a parable of Christ's dealing with Israel.Verses 45-46 concerns a parable of Christ's dealing with the church.Verses 47-50 concerns a parable of Christ's dealing with the Gentiles.The third parable (47-50) corresponds to Matthew 25:31-46. Here is the same event told in parabolic form:

"Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net cast into the sea and gathering from every species, which, when it was filled, they brought onto the shore, and sat down and collected the good into vessels; but the foul they cast out.

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So it will be at the consummation of the age: the angels will go forth and separate the evil from the midst of the righteous, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (Matt.13:47-50).The sheep in Matthew 25 correspond to the good species from the sea in Matthew 13. And the goats of Matthew 25 correspond to the bad species from the sea in Matthew 13.The plain teaching is in Matthew 25 is given in the form of a prophecy. And in Matthew 13 the same event is told us in parabolic form.This is Christ's dealing with the Gentile nations who remain alive at the end of the great tribulation just at the time Christ establishes His millennial throne in Jerusalem.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 02:51 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 02:53 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 02:57 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 04:07 PM

We were discussing Matthew 25.Matthew 25 says all the nations. Pretty clear.It really is as simple as that.This message has been edited by jar, 12-07-2005 01:51 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ringo316,==========================
That interpretation is not supported by Matthew 25. There are no "three groups of people" mentioned - only the sheep and the goats. And the only distinction between them is based on what they do - not on what they say or "believe".
==========================Ringo, you gunslinger you. There are three groups.Goats who treated these the least of His brothers.
Sheep who treated these the least of His brothers.
And these the least of His brothers.If the least of His brothers are the sheep, then when would they have time to do the good deeds? They are imprisoned and sick and destitute. So Christ is not talking about the least of these His brothers treating one another.There must be two parties free to act. And one party not free to act, upon which the other two act.I agree with you that they are indeed judged by what they do. We are in agreement there.But by what logic do you propose that either the sheep or the goats could at the same time be "these the least of My brothers?" Demonstrate your logic how this could be.=======================
Some would say that that interpretation is supported by Matthew 24, but others would say that it is not supported anywhere in the Bible.
======================I am willing to labor more to demonstrate that this is the proper understanding. If you would like additional proofs.============================
In any case, the "millennial kingdom" and the "Antichrist" are not the topic of this thread. The topic is "Right Behaviour Inherits Eternal Life".
============================This statement is rather lame. If your desire is to seek the truth of the interpretation of the passage, then other matters must be brought in.If I say in a discussion that the earth is flat and you respond by saying that certain scientists and navigators strongly demonstrated that the earth was round, should my response be "Well, those scientists and navigators are NOT the topic of this discussion."If additional matters need to be brought into the picture such as Antichrist and the millennial kingdom, to correct your erroneous exegisis of Matthew 25, then they support the discussion of the topic.If you don't care about the truth but only care about your topic, well then I guess we all just have to say "Whatever you say Ringo. Whatever you say."This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:12 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:19 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:28 PM

jar,================================
We were discussing Matthew 25.
Matthew 25 says all the nations. Pretty clear.It really is as simple as that.
================================It should be clear that the time and the place of the event are important.Jeremiah 3:17 says "At that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah, and all the nations will be gathered to it because the name of Jehovah is at Jerusalem ..."In this prophecy nothing is said about the resurrection of the dead. The clear meaning is all the living nations.The judgment of Revelation 20 is of all the dead. And there it does not mention nations."And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose face earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them."If earth and heaven fled away so that no place was found for them, then where was Jerusalem? You got it, I hope - nowhere.And it does not say the nations. It says ..." And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened; and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the DEAD were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works.

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And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works.

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And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

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And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire" The dead have judgment pronounced upon them according to their works. But they perish according to the absence of their names from the book of life.This is after the millennial kingdom, of the dead not the nations, and the perdition is based upon not having been recorded in the book of life.This judgment of Revelation 20 we may call "the last judgement." It is not the same as the judgment in Jerusalem, of the nations, on the throne of the King's glory, according to treatment to these the least of the Lords brothers. And the judge is the Son of Man, which title relates to the Messiah.The Bible says that God will judge the living and the dead. It does not say that He will do so at the same time.This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 03:57 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 12-07-2005 04:00 PM

True, he may do so on an ongoing basis. IMHO, probably does.But that still has nothing to do with the passage from Matthew 25.In there he gathers all the nations together. And divides them in two groups. Not three, two.He then goes on to talk about how the decision on separation is made, and it's on behavior. There is no direct mention of belief, but one very important alusion to it.The sheep are surprised that they were selected. Now if the groups contain belivers, then why the surprise? The sheep did not expect to be among the saved, they had no idea of why they were chosen, respond, "Are you sure?"The goats though are surpised that they are being excluded. They expected to be among the saved. They are shocked that they are not included and respond "Say What?"SO how can this be understood?I think it's pretty obvious that the believers, the Christians, will make up almost all of the goats. The sheep on the otherhand, never expected they would be saved. They are the Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Taoists, followers of Mencius, Confucious or Lao Tsu, pagans and satanists.Most of the Christians, those that think Christianity is some Get out of hell free card, that think they are saved, that they are different, they will make up the goats.It's really simple. Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

All men are brothers (and that doesn't exclude the women either).The least of Jesus' brothers refers to everybody. Sometimes we are the hungry, sometimes we feed the hungry, depending on the circumstances. The point is that we all have to help each other: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.The sheep and goats are the only two groups at the judgement. Either you're a sheep (eternal life) or you're a goat (torment). It depends on how you behaved toward your fellow man. That isn't the way it works around here. Topics are supposed to be quite narrowly focused. If you want to discuss the "tribulation" or the "Antichrist", that belongs in a different thread. I suggest that you use the search function and if you don't find anything, feel free to propose a new topic.I should also point out that, by tradition, threads are cut off at around 300 posts, so there isn't much time left to spend on tangents. (And while I'm in fake-admin mode: you can click the "peek" button in the lower right-hand corner to see how we do the "special effects" like quotes, etc.)On the other hand, if you can demonstrate that your interpretations change what Matthew 25 says about right behaviour, go right ahead.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Carico,==================================
If right behavior gives us eternal life, then we're all up a creek without a paddle. But of course if you ask any of us if we are good, most of us will answer "yes." That's because we conveniently forget that we have all at one time, lied to our parents, friends and neighbors, taken money when we could have given it to the poor, neglected to feed the hungry, cursed people on the freeway, coveted our neighbor's cars, houses, looks, talent, intelligence, etc. and on and on. So no, as Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." We are not capable of being honest about our wrongdoings and therefore are not qualified to judge our "goodness." Only Christ's death has paid the price for our sins so we can be pure enough to see God.
===========================================Most people do not understand the terrible holiness and perfection of God Almighty. I would say to anyone reading this discussion that if we have to answer to God for one sin - we'll never make it.I said, if we have to answer to an eternally perfect and absolutely holy God for one sin, just ONE, we will never be saved.Now here's the good news.JUSTICE AGAINST OUT SINS HAS ALREADY BEEN CARRIED OUT.On the cross of Christ justice was imputed against us IN Christ. It is not that God overlooked our sins. He does not say "I know you didn't mean it. Let's just forget about it." No He judged our sins on the cross of Christ.If we receive Christ as Lord, we agree. If we reject Christ as Lord we follow our leader Satan to his destiny.If we are in Christ, we will share in Christ's destiny. If we refuse to be placed in Christ we go down with our leader Satan, to his eternal perdition.Having said that, the title of this thread does have a place. And it will take time to explain it.Ringo316 does have a point (grumble grumble). But I am sure he doesn't understand it.Briefly, Adam before he fell into sin was created neutral and was "very good." (Gen 1:31). Before Adam sinned he was "very good." He was innocent.This "very good" man had no reason to die. He was told that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would surely die. He was created very good but neutral between God and Satan. God represented in "the tree of life" and Satan represented in the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"Had Adam not eaten of either source there is no reason to believe that the "very good" innocent man was under condemnation. He just could not fulfill God's eternal purpose.God will in His sovereignty preserve a portion of the human race to be restored to the neutral state of "very good" in which Adam was before he fell. These peoples are the peoples over which the sons of God who are born of God in His salvation will reign.The Bible says repeatedly that the saints of God will reign over someone, both in the millennium and in eternity. It is not logical that they reign over each other. There has to be people on the earth over which the saved saints can reign. These are the nations who are restored in the Restoration to be in the state of the neutral created Adam before his fall. They will be restored to be innocent and "very good."Some of the passages in the gospels, particularly Matthew, refer to these restored peoples who are the nations to be ruled over by the sons of God.The sons of God have eternal life imparted into them. God indwells them. But the New Testament speaks of peoples who will enter into the realm of eternal life. They are not born of God. But they enter into a restored state of Adam before his fall.So in this regard, indeed, there are some verses which indicate restored peoples entering into a realm of eternal life.In Revelation it speaks of those who eat the fruit of the tree of life and of those who are healed by the leaves of the tree of life.To eat of the tree of life is to take God's divine life into your human life to be born of God to be a son of God.To be healed by the leaves of the tree of life is to be restored to the state in which Adam was created before his fall. He was not born of God. He did not have the indwelling Spirit of God. But he was innocent, neutral, and pronounced "very good."Some skeptics notice these passages and use them to try to nullify the gospel of repentence and regeneration in order to receive eternal life.There's more to this. But I want to cut this post here. The Bible is not always a snap to understand. It is not always that simple. And some people who think that they have all the answers think so because they over simplify something which involves more than they want to explore.