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Author Topic:   Works, Faith, & Salvation (for Iano)
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 61 of 106 (271265)
12-21-2005 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jaywill
12-20-2005 7:21 PM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
Hi, Jaywill. I'm going on an out of town trip in half an hour. I'll get back to you tomorrow.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2005 7:21 PM jaywill has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 62 of 106 (271399)
12-21-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by truthlover
12-20-2005 1:14 PM


Onto Galatians...almost
iano writes:
then at the end the Galatians suddenly get a vital doctrine introduced out of nowhere. Paul spent half an epistle on justification by faith...
tl writes:
Paul spent half an epistle telling the Galatians how to be justified...
When I said half an epistle on justification: how it is not obtained (works) every persons need for it, Jew (or people who believe in God) or Gentile (or people who don't believe in God), how it is indeed obtained (through faith), objections that are raised in the light of justification by faith (shall we continue in sin?...)and consequences of being justified both in terms of assurance of final salvation (if/then) and how one should behave in the light of that(walk in the spirit) - I wasn't referring to Galatians - I was referring to Romans. Half an epistle spend forming and expounding on a doctrine. My question was, if Paul spent such meticulous effort forming a doctrine and examining it from various angles then where is the equivilent effort put into forming the doctrine of a second salvation?
Paul spent half an epistle telling the Galatians how to be justified. For you, that means he told them what they could do to get God to pretend they are righteous, even though they're not...
I'm not sure what you mean here TL. To clarify: what I hold is what the first half of Romans explains and exposits: the doctrine of justification by faith and the results thereof. This is not pretend justification. It is real. Although righteousness is not the same thing as justification it does go hand in hand with it. Faith also is the means by which a person has righteousness booked to their account. Not works. The Galatians is an epistle of 6 chapters as opposed to Romans 16. Paul only touches on elements of justifcation by faith, limited as is by both space and the lack of necessity to exposit the full workings of the doctrine of justification by faith - the Galatians have already heard it - it's reminding they are getting not doctrine from first principles.
Then a couple of verses tucked in to support the doctrine of second salvation. I suggest that if we look elsewhere that such support in other epistles will be equally paltry. Why did Paul spend so much time on justification by faith if second salvation by works (the only one that matters in the end) gets (comparitively in both Romans and Galatians) ignored.
The central thing Paul is reminding the foolish Galatians, or at least those of them who are looking to the law for their justification) is the doctrine of justification by faith, Righteousness by faith.
quote:
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
You see, to Paul, being justified and becoming perfect, complete, or mature were the same thing. A justified person is made righteous, which is what the Greek literally means.
What is the basis for this statement TL? I mean, on what basis do you say that justification is anything to do with 'being made perfect' or that justification is a process . Justification appears to be a past event for the person - not a continuous one
Romans 5:1
quote:
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9...our old friend
quote:
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!
Let us look too at this linking of yours...
quote:
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
So Paul spent the first half of the epistle telling them that they will never become righteous people by the keeping of the Law. They will become righteous by the Spirit.
But we can see from Galatians 5:5 the following:
quote:
But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.
Whatever is meant by righteousness we can see that it is by faith. It is awaited for also - not worked for. Just like Abraham was counted as righteous by faith Paul has made the point in Romans that this applies to everyone. Note that hope is not necessarily a hope of the "I don't know if it will happen but I hope it will" variety.
A person can know something has happened and look forward in hope to its full expression. "Will it be as good as I think it is going to be?" That is hope too. It is similar to a person being declared a citizen of heaven. They aren't there yet but can look forward in hope to the time when they take up residence there. A heir can look forward in hope to the time when they recieve their inheritance etc. A person can be declared righteous and look forward in hope to the day when the can experience what it is to be righteous.
It is a bit like that old chesnut: work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Not all fear is craven fear, not all trembling is terrified trembling. Ever pay for a roller coater ride? Excited fear, trembling with pleasure.
I'll be back on the rest of your post including Galatians (you may be glad to know). Whilst not rejoicing in my sin it should be said that I am nursing a Christmas party induced hangover at the moment. One of the sins of the flesh which the Galatians were 'warned' about incidently...
Could I ask you, whilst I consider my approach, to respond to my questions regarding if/then statements and how these fit in with a conditional second salvation by works. The Romans 5:9-10 verse and say this one...
Romans 6
quote:
5 If we have been united (past tense - just like justification) with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin” 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
This message has been edited by iano, 21-Dec-2005 08:57 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by truthlover, posted 12-20-2005 1:14 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 9:19 AM iano has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 63 of 106 (271638)
12-22-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by jaywill
12-20-2005 7:21 PM


Re: Growth and Saturation of Eternal Life
First let’s see if the verses about growing to saturation with God’s life are all just talk
I never said any verses about growing with God's life are all talk. I said the things you were saying were just talk, because you gave no reason for them. You are giving reasons now, and though I don't think any of those reasons are applicable to Gal 6:7-9, I won't call it "just talk" if you're giving reasons.
”My children, with whom I travail again in borth until Christ is formed in you.” (Galatians 4:19).
Is this just talk? They have received Christ but Paul labors that Christ would be formed in them. You don’t think that has anything to do with the growth of eternal life?
No, I don't think this has anything to do with the growth of eternal life. I went through verses on eternal life, every one that's used by Paul in the NT, and I showed you that he speaks of eternal life as a future reward very clearly in most of them.
Now, you are giving verses on growth. That's fine, but surely you didn't think I don't believe in spiritual growth, do you? None of the verses you gave mention the growth of eternal life in a person, and thus they don't apply to Gal 6:7-9.
quote:
God is not mocked. Whatever a person sows, that shall he reap. He who sows to the flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. He who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap everlasting life. Let us not grow weary in doing good, then, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.
"In due season" means at some appropriate time in the future. So this verse says that at some appropriate time in the future we will reap eternal life if we don't grow tired of doing good, which will be accomplished, of course, by continually sowing to the Spirit (and growing in it, I agree).
Let's put growing and later reaping eternal life in its proper order with a passage that describes this well in 2 Pet.
quote:
Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge...and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are in you and are increasing they will cause you to be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Master Y'shua the King....Therefore, brothers, give diligence to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble, and in this way an entrance will be supplied to you into the everlasting kingdom of our Master and Savior Y'shua the King.
Here there is growth, but there is not growth in the possession of an entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Y'shua. You grow in other things, and if you have those things and they are increasing then you will be supplied, as a result, with an entrance into the kingdom.
It's the same way in Gal 6:7-9. If you sow to the Spirit you will grow. If you continue in well-doing and don't lose heart, you will grow. But you will not grow in your possession of eternal life. Eternal life is what you will reap as a result of growth in other things, like virtue, knowledge, self-control, patience, perseverance, brotherly kindness, and love.
This is the list of verses you provided. I did not say that the shades of meaning of eternal life are specifically seen in these verses. But we will look at one or two of your (not my) candidates.
Right, you didn't supply any verses in your post. And since you said we're supposed to grow in eternal life, the verses on eternal life seemed like the appropriate ones. I had no idea that you would want to simply say that if we grow, it must be in eternal life. That's not something that follows logically, so there was no way for me to guess that you'd want to use verses on growth to prove your point.
If Timothy received eternal life upon being having Jesus Christ as in First John 5:12
I told you, you can't mix John and Paul's usage of eternal life. John ALWAYS uses eternal life as a present possession. Paul NEVER uses it as a present possession. So when you say "if Timothy received eternal life upon having Jesus Christ," then we have to stop there. If you're referencing a letter Paul wrote, then the answer is, Timothy didn't.
All who believe that Jesus is the Son of God have eternal life.
This is only true to John, not Paul. You can't use Paul's verses in this way.
My explanation for this is as follows, but first, remember that whether my explanation is right or not, the fact is true. John always uses eternal life as a present possession, and Paul never uses it as a present possession. So whether my explanation is right, you still have to deal with what Paul wrote, not mix Paul and John because you wish they could mix. Mixing Paul and John's usage of eternal life is part of the reason people get so confused on this subject.
So here's my explanation: John says, "This life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life, and he who does not have the Son does not have the life." John practically equated eternal life with Y'shua. He talked about the Word of Life that was from the beginning being manifested, then seen by the apostles, and then he says, "we show you that eternal life, which was with the father, and was manifested to us."
That eternal life, according to John, belongs to the Son and is in the Son. If we have the Son we have eternal life. If we don't, we don't have eternal life. Only John speaks of eternal life this way. Matthew and Peter use it as a future reward, the way Paul does, but John was very mystical, and he was also combatting gnostic teachings, which separated Christ, the Word, eternal life, and several others into separate beings.
I like to speak in such a way as to agree with both, which I believe fits well with what was written by those in the apostles' churches over the next century. We have eternal life now, because we have the Son. At the judgment, however, the reward of eternal life (or immortality, as Paul calls it in Rom 2:7) is given to us. Then we have eternal life, because we have eternal life, not just because we have the Son. The eternal life will be in us, not just in the Son.
This is actually a pretty major point in the early church writings, because having eternal life or immortality meant to them that they would then be eternal, like God is. Such a gift, such a reward, was too precious--and dangerous, because you could be creating eternal and evil beings if that gift was given to the wrong people--to be handed out willy nilly. It was given only to those who are worthy (which is the exact word Y'shua used in Rev 3:4).
Eternal life or immortality is not a big deal to modern Christians. They believe that everyone is eternal. That's not what the apostles' churches believed, so immortality was an unspeakably wonderful gift, worth enduring to the end and worth suffering for.
Clearly we are to enjoy eternal life in some aspect as soon as be become believers.
No, that's not clear; not from any of the verses you provided. I'm saying Paul used eternal life a certain way, and even when you look at every verse he used eternal life in, it is consistent.
” . that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body” (2 Cor. 4:10)
Yes, Paul, too, believed that one receives the life of Y'shua when he or she receives Y'shua. But he never calls it eternal life. Eternal life or immortality is always a future reward to him, which was a hope that was to be "obtained," and clearly, the means to obtaining this reward was to persevere in good works.
The ZOE life is by definition the eternal life.
Maybe to you, but Paul does not use the "Zoe" of Y'shua and "Zoe aionos" interchangeably, and we're talking about Paul's writings, not yours. (Too long since Greek class; I don't remember the gender of Zoe, nor the proper ending to put on aionos, even if I did know the gender.)
Paul doesn't call it eternal life until we receive it, and it's in us as well as in the Son, and we don't receive it until the judgment as a reward for good deeds (which come by continuing in the faith and walking by the Spirit).
Reward he did speak of. But reward is not gift. So when Paul speaks of reward he is not talking about eternal redemption which saves a person eternally. That is not a reward. That is a gift
So say you, but not Paul. You quoted Eph 2:8-10 here, which I have already addressed. Paul is speaking in the past tense in Eph 2:8,9, and he is talking about being justified by faith. This is the act of justification that cleanses your past sin, brings you into the King, and makes you righteous. He is not talking about entering the eternal kingdom after the judgment or receiving the reward of eternal life, which happens at the judgment and by works.
To be eternally saved from the second death is a gift of God and not of ourselves. Here again it is clear:
No, there's nothing in Tit 3:5 either about being saved from the second death. Tit 3:5 is all past tense. You need to read my first couple of posts in this thread. When Paul speaks in the past tense, it is always about salvation from sin and it is always by faith in the King and through the deliverance wrought by the death of the King. When he speaks in the future tense, it is always about salvation from the judgment, about entering the kingdom, about receiving eternal life, and it is by works done by walking in the Life and Spirit of the King.
It is very consistent, and you are doing a good job of helping me prove it bringing up all these past tense verses.
Reward from works of righteousness then has nothing to do with eternal redemption.
This isn't true. Reward from works of righteousness has nothing to do with salvation from the power of sin that happened in the past. Reward from works of righteousness has everything to do with eternal redemption.
How can he speak of those who are mature and those who are carnal and infants (1 Cor. 3:3) unless there is levels of growth of the life that they have received?
The person can grow in faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, and love. This does entail growing in the life of Christ, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that eternal life is a reward at the judgment, except that this sort of growth is what is necessary if you are to reap that reward at the end of your life.
Again:
quote:
God is not mocked. Whatever a person sows, that shall he reap. He who sows to the flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. He who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap everlasting life. Let us not grow weary in doing good, then, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.
I don't think any verses you gave address the fact that this verse says that in due season you will reap eternal life, and you will reap it by not growing weary in doing good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 12-20-2005 7:21 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jaywill, posted 12-23-2005 10:19 AM truthlover has replied
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 12-23-2005 3:19 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 64 of 106 (271639)
12-22-2005 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-20-2005 8:56 PM


Eternal Life in John
I'd be interested in hearing this when you have the time.
This is concerning why John uses eternal life as a present possession of the believer and Paul doesn't. I ended up having to address this in my post to jaywill, but here's it clipped out:
**********************
So here's my explanation: John says, "This life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life, and he who does not have the Son does not have the life." John practically equated eternal life with Y'shua. He talked about the Word of Life that was from the beginning being manifested, then seen by the apostles, and then he says, "we show you that eternal life, which was with the father, and was manifested to us."
That eternal life, according to John, belongs to the Son and is in the Son. If we have the Son we have eternal life. If we don't, we don't have eternal life. Only John speaks of eternal life this way. Matthew and Peter use it as a future reward, the way Paul does, but John was very mystical, and he was also combatting gnostic teachings, which separated Christ, the Word, eternal life, and several others into separate beings.
I like to speak in such a way as to agree with both, which I believe fits well with what was written by those in the apostles' churches over the next century. We have eternal life now, because we have the Son. At the judgment, however, the reward of eternal life (or immortality, as Paul calls it in Rom 2:7) is given to us. Then we have eternal life, because we have eternal life, not just because we have the Son. The eternal life will be in us, not just in the Son.
This is actually a pretty major point in the early church writings, because having eternal life or immortality meant to them that they would then be eternal, like God is. Such a gift, such a reward, was too precious--and dangerous, because you could be creating eternal and evil beings if that gift was given to the wrong people--to be handed out willy nilly. It was given only to those who are worthy (which is the exact word Y'shua used in Rev 3:4).
Eternal life or immortality is not a big deal to modern Christians. They believe that everyone is eternal. That's not what the apostles' churches believed, so immortality was an unspeakably wonderful gift, worth enduring to the end and worth suffering for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-20-2005 8:56 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 12-22-2005 10:39 AM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 65 of 106 (271647)
12-22-2005 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by iano
12-21-2005 12:01 PM


Re: Onto Galatians...almost
My question was, if Paul spent such meticulous effort forming a doctrine and examining it from various angles then where is the equivilent effort put into forming the doctrine of a second salvation?
In the first half of Romans, he is addressing a Jewish misconception. He didn't have to address the same misconception about the judgment, which is a very simple concept.
The concept of justification by the blood of the King is simple, but it is not simple to explain. The disciple has two extremes to avoid. One is to turn the grace of God into licentiousness, and the other is to begin to live in "do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which is of no value against the work of the flesh.
It was a huge issue for Paul, a pharisee among pharisees, to preach righteousness apart from the Law of Moses. Was he promoting sin? No, he had to say he wasn't. If he was promoting righteousness, what righteousness was he promoting, and how could one be righteous apart from good works. All very confusing, and all requiring a great deal of explanation.
The one thing everyone agreed on, and that wasn't difficult to explain, was that everyone would stand before the judgment seat of the King, and they would be judged according to their works, whether good or bad.
Paul does address this, pretty extensively, but not in the long explanations that he devotes to obtaining righteousness through faith, because it wasn't as difficult or controversial.
To clarify: what I hold is what the first half of Romans explains and exposits: the doctrine of justification by faith and the results thereof. This is not pretend justification. It is real. Although righteousness is not the same thing as justification it does go hand in hand with it.
Until you are willing to say that the unrighteous are also unjustified, and that they have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, then this is just empty bleating on your part. You say this when it suits you, and you back off whenever the rubber meets the road. You believe in a justification, where God calls a person righteous even if they have no noticeable good works or change in their life at all, and that is pure pretense, not justification at all.
If you don't believe it, then say it where it matters. Tell us that all drunks, adulterers, and divisive people are unrighteous and unjustified and will never attain to the kingdom of God unless they repent. Otherwise, yes, you are saying that God is willing to pretend that unrighteous people are righteous, and that is the justification you are preaching.
When we started all these discussions, you were saying that justified persons might never change at all in any noticeable way to them or others until maybe even after they die, yet they would be justified, and thus "righteous."
Whatever is meant by righteousness we can see that it is by faith. It is awaited for also - not worked for.
You're not very good at applying your own context issues to yourself. Gal 5:5 goes on to say, in v. 6, "...for neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith WORKING through love."
We don't just wait and do nothing. We spend our waiting time working. As Paul said, "I buffet my body and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."
I mean, on what basis do you say that justification is anything to do with 'being made perfect' or that justification is a process . Justification appears to be a past event for the person - not a continuous one
On the basis I gave you, which was Gal 3:3.
However, I do have to grant you that justification is indeed a past event for a person. There is an ongoing growth, an adding to faith and a being made perfect (2 Pet 1:5 & Gal 3:3), and while I do believe that's part of the justification process, we've got enough to argue about without that. We'll just leave it as using justification only for the past tense event.
A person can know something has happened and look forward in hope to its full expression. "Will it be as good as I think it is going to be?" That is hope too. It is similar to a person being declared a citizen of heaven. They aren't there yet but can look forward in hope to the time when they take up residence there.
This is all true, but it really doesn't address how this is worked out. The Scriptures teach this is worked out by living in the Spirit and thus patiently continuing to do good. Those who do this will inherit the kingdom, and those who don't will inherit corruption, indignation, and wrath.
5 If we have been united (past tense - just like justification) with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin” 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
You highlighted "we will certainly" in your quote of this. However, this is not talking about the future resurrection and judgment. It is talking about if we are experiencing his death, which puts to death our old man, then we will certainly experience his resurrection as well, the putting on of the new man and receiving his life. I think the context of Rom 6 (and this passage is Rom 6:5-7) is not questionable here. We're not talking about future judgment, punishment, and rewards, but living above the power of sin by the life of the King within us.
Finally, on Rom 5:9,10, I don't believe that's a certain if, then statement. If that was the only passage in Romans or in the Bible, then it could well be interpreted that way, but since other passages address the whole issue directly, I think it's apparent that Paul is not saying if you've been reconciled, then you'll most certainly be saved from wrath in the end. No, you have to endure to the end, and if you've been reconciled, he most certainly has the power to save you from wrath in the end as well. But you have to continue in it.
It's said in just those words by Paul in Colossians:
quote:
And you....has he reconciled...to present you holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight; IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 12-21-2005 12:01 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 01-04-2006 2:47 PM truthlover has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 66 of 106 (271672)
12-22-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by truthlover
12-22-2005 8:48 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
quote:
We have eternal life now, because we have the Son. At the judgment, however, the reward of eternal life (or immortality, as Paul calls it in Rom 2:7) is given to us.
I wonder if you could clarify "life" for me as used by John in your explanation?
I understand eternal life when used as immortality, but am confused since you have shown that John speaks in present tense.
Is John talking about immortality or is he refering to the continued existence of a new way of living so to speak?
Thanks

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 8:48 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 10:56 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 69 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 11:23 PM purpledawn has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 67 of 106 (271797)
12-22-2005 5:41 PM


Only God's life is truly life
Purpledawn's question was not addressed to me. But here is a reply for the general reader which addresses some of the matters.
There are three words denoting the English word life in the NT.
ZOE - life - the divine, eternal, uncreated and indestructible life of God. Every man should have this life in their God created spirit.
PSUCHE - life - soul - the God created human soulish life
BIOS - life - the God created physical life of man
Only the ZOE, the life of God is counted in the Bible as that which is REALLY life. PSUCHE and BIOS are merely created life. They are weak and temporal. Only the life of God, ZOE, is divine, eternal, and indestructible.
This is the life of the Divine Being the Bible calls "The Father". And this God is "from everlasting to everlasting" (Psa. 90:2). That is the only One and the only life that is uncreated - that always was and always will be.
Before all others life existed the uncreated ZOE life of God was and always will be.
Two verses below show that unless man has the life of God he does not have life. Meaning he does not have the truest life which is REALLY life.
”He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life” (John 5:12)
”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life.” (John 3:36)
These verses show that in the eyes of God, only His life is life; beside that, no other life can be counted as life. Only the life of God, the ZOE is divine and eternal, uncreated and indestructible.
PSUCHE and BIOS are not divine. Divine means being of God, having the nature of God, or being transcendent and distinctive from all others. Only God is God. Only God has the nature of God. And only God is the ultimate transcendent and distinctive life.
When man has this ZOE life he has the divine person of God.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-22-2005 05:46 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-22-2005 05:47 PM

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 68 of 106 (271855)
12-22-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by purpledawn
12-22-2005 10:39 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
I understand eternal life when used as immortality, but am confused since you have shown that John speaks in present tense.
I've found that the key is to remember that when John speaks of eternal life, he is using eternal to describe a type of life, not to describe our possession of it. That life, that "thing" if you will, is an eternal sort of life. That life is in the Son, and the Son is immortal. Eternal life and immortality do go hand in hand, but not necessarily in us.
For example, if the Son is in me, and the Son possesses eternal life, then I have eternal life, because I have the Son in me. If, however, the Son departs, then I no longer have that eternal life, because it was in and belonged to the Son, not to me. So eternal describes the life, not my possession of it.
Is John talking about immortality or is he refering to the continued existence of a new way of living so to speak?
Neither. He is talking about a "thing." It's an intangible, mystical, ethereal kind of thing, because it is Life, but it is nonetheless a "thing." That "thing," Life, is eternal, so it is eternal life.
The concept is really pretty simple, once you get it in your mind, but it's hard to explain.
I want to add something, but I'll do it in the next post.

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 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 12-22-2005 10:39 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 69 of 106 (271867)
12-22-2005 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by purpledawn
12-22-2005 10:39 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
There's actually a lot in jaywill's post 67 I agree with, so I left it alone. This will touch on some of the same subject, more by accident than on purpose.
The subject of immortality was a big deal to the early church, as I said in an earlier post. I'd like to expand on it a bit here, because it helps with the subject of John's use of eternal life.
To the early church, there was not only two kinds of life, as jaywill suggests, but also two kinds of matter. (note: I wouldn't translate psuche as life in the sense that bios and zoe mean life.) There was created matter and uncreated matter. Uncreated matter was the "stuff" God is made of.
Uncreated matter has always existed, and therefore always will exist, according to the early church. This is what the battle between Athenagoras (that started with Alexander) and Arius was really all about. "Was Jesus God?" was NOT the question the Council of Nicea met about in any sense that people argue about it now. The question was, did God take some of his own uncreated matter to form his Son, or did he create his Son from the created matter that all the rest of the universe was made of. Because if the Son was made from the substance (the "stuff" or matter) that God consists of, then the Son is eternal, with his matter having no beginning and thus incapable of having an end, and he is truly divine. If he was made from the same matter everything else, including the angels, were made from, then the Son is not truly eternal, and thus not truly divine.
Now that's all sort of mystical and complicated, but I'm telling that story for a reason.
If you can picture this "matter" than God is made of, which is uncreated and eternal in both past and future, and another matter which is created and thus can pass away. Then think of life the same way. There is an uncreated life that is like that matter. It is eternal in both past and future. This is the eternal life that John speaks of. It can come to earth, be manifested, and be seen and handled (1 Jn 1:1-4). It's almost like a substance itself.
That life is the life of the Son, who is of the uncreated matter of the Father. If he is in you, then you have access to that life. It is powerful, and it will affect and change your earthly life.
At the judgment, however, that uncreated, eternal life of the Son can be given to you as your possession, no longer just the Son's. You then will become eternal, like the Son is eternal. This is that greatest of rewards that the Father bestows, and he will only give it to those that are worthy. This is a gift worth working for.
I hope that wasn't all so ethereal and far out as to be not understandable. The concept helps to understand the underlying thought behind the verses on immortality and eternal life, but it's very hard to nail down into points one, two, and three as I like to have things nailed down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by purpledawn, posted 12-22-2005 10:39 AM purpledawn has replied

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 Message 70 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 12:22 AM truthlover has not replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 106 (271888)
12-23-2005 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by truthlover
12-22-2005 11:23 PM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Interesting way of looking at eternal life. Got me reading a bit of Athenagoras I found at CCEL.org

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by truthlover, posted 12-22-2005 11:23 PM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 12:36 AM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 106 (271892)
12-23-2005 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
12-23-2005 12:22 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Where your treasure is, Faith, there will your heart be also.

We are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.--Matthew Arnold
"It's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
Our Nada, who art in Nada, Nada be thy name. Hail, Nothing, full of Nothing, Nothing is with thee.--Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 12:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 12:41 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 72 of 106 (271894)
12-23-2005 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by robinrohan
12-23-2005 12:36 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Could you be persuaded to expand on the point?
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-23-2005 12:46 AM

Psa 14:1 of David. The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 12:36 AM robinrohan has replied

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 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 12:53 AM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 106 (271898)
12-23-2005 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
12-23-2005 12:41 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Could you be persuaded to expand on the point?
Your treasure is whatever you value in your heart, Faith.
That's heaven. That's it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 12:41 AM Faith has replied

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 Message 74 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:07 AM robinrohan has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 106 (271901)
12-23-2005 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by robinrohan
12-23-2005 12:53 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Your treasure is whatever you value in your heart, Faith.
That's heaven. That's it.
Thank you, that's clarifying. If your heart values the things of Hell, Robin, that's not heaven for sure, but it is where you will end up. To have eternal life you must value the things of eternal life.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-23-2005 01:07 AM

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 Message 73 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 12:53 AM robinrohan has replied

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 Message 75 by robinrohan, posted 12-23-2005 1:23 AM Faith has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 106 (271904)
12-23-2005 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
12-23-2005 1:07 AM


Re: Eternal Life in John
Thank you, that's clarifying. If your heart values the things of Hell, Robin, that's not heaven for sure, but it is where you will end up. To have eternal life you must value the things of eternal life.
Faith, lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
I was just trying to make a point that what matters are the spiritual things of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 1:25 AM robinrohan has replied

  
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