Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?

It appears the big guy disagrees with you. "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

​

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

​

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

​

"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

​

"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

​

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Why would a heathen even think about hell?Brian.

Unfounded insults do not strengthen your case.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Let's take a look at this, shall we?With a little context:

quote:

---

(v. 12)Don't let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts, (v.13) nor yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin; but yield yourselves to God...(v.14) For sin shall not have power over you, for you are not under law, but under grace...(v.16) Don't you know that to whom you yield yourselves as servants to obey, you are his servants whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness? (v.17) But God be thanked that you were servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of teaching which was delivered to you...(v.21) What fruit did you have in those things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. (v.22) But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants to God, you have your fruit leading to holiness, and its end, eternal life. (v.23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

---

The entire chapter talks about choices and results of those choices. The results are called fruit, wages, and ends. You choose whom you will obey, and the result is either sin and death or righteousness, holiness, and eternal life.To take one word, gift, and to create a whole theology that ignores everything said about the gift is madness. The wages of sin is death. If you yield yourself a servant to sin, you will die. The gift of God is eternal life, a gift given to those who yield themselves to God as servants, resulting in righteousness and holiness, the result of which is eternal life. That gift is not given to anyone else.Just a little bit earlier in the letter, we read, "God will repay everyone according to their deeds: to those who, by patiently continuing to do good, seek after glory, honor, and immortality, he will repay eternal life. But to those who...do not obey the truth...he will repay indignation and wrath" (Rom 2:6).Eternal life, to Paul, is always a reward for good deeds. For example:

quote:

---

But thou, O man of God, flee these things and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith and lay hold of eternal life (1 Tim 6:11,12).

---

A quick lesson on grace:Grace is a power, assistance, or help coming from God to change a person and help them overcome sin. That is why grace is always attached to trying in the Scriptures. Rom 5:21: "Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, so that as sin reigned through death, so grace might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."Rom 6:14, which we've already looked at, which says grace causes sin not to have dominion over us, is one good verse, and Heb 4:16 is another to explain grace: "Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we might obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need."It's common to confuse grace and mercy in modern Christians who base their theology on an incorrect definition and description of gift. They're not the same, and we are saved by grace, not mercy. Grace is a power, freely given, that enables us no longer to be slaves of sin, so that it is possible, by denying ourselves and yielding to God, to live a life of holiness and righteousness which results in eternal life. Mercy is the pardon of sin. Mercy doesn't save us. Grace saves us.It is also common to confuse John's use of eternal life--he sees it as a present possession of the saints--with Paul's. Paul always describes eternal life as a future reward. Rom 2:6,7 is not unusual usage, but the norm for everyone but John.(Hat's off to John, though. I love his letters and his Gospel. Theology wasn't the issue then, as it is now, and resolving eternal life down to a system was unnecessary. It is necessary, though, to know what someone is saying to you, and that means defining eternal life differently for John and Paul. It's a life from God for John, and it's immortality for Paul.)

I suppose the main problems I have with this oft-quoted passage are twofold:a) Good works are associated with the righteous of that there is no doubt. But what is not made clear here is whether righteousness is a consequence of good works or whether good works are a consequence of rightousness. I suggest that scripture indicates the latter. For example, Paul frequently makes comparisons between the righteous and the unrighteous and in Romans 8:8 we are told that those that are 'in the flesh' (ie: who are not in Christ) CANNOT please God. Good works please God, bad works displease God. But a person who is not of Christ cannot please God thus whatever they might consider their works to be, they are all seen as bad by God. For example "all your (own) rightousness are as filthy rags"Which would indicate that in order for works to be seen as good by God they must of a type. They must be viewed from a certain perspective. They must be done while a person is in Christ. But if a person is in Christ, we see from Romans 8:1 "there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.... (and what is the characteristic of these people?)...who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit).If no condemnation for a person because they are in Christ then a person in Christ cannot be a goat and thus condemned. So whilst the passage is ambiguous on it's own, Romans shows in Christ is where no condemnation lies. The question then would be I suppose, does one get in Christ by works or not..b) The passage includes Christ referring to the sheep doing stuff for "these brothers of mine" To be Christs brother one would have to the fathers (adopted) son. And only certain people are given the right to be called sons of God. This passage can't simply be seen in the light of general good works = salvation. The righteous (who are already adopted as sons) did stuff for other (adopted) sons. But when it comes to the goats there is no reference to brothers.For those reasons I reckon there is a bit more to this passage than that it is straightforward mechanism of salvation stuff

Let me try my hand on this. There is something to be said for the idea that good works are a consequence of righteousness. But then we have "there is none righteous" so this might be an impossible requirement.The usual argument is phrased in terms of faith vs. works. Those who emphasize faith would probably say that faith is the way toward righteousness. The "works" school would probably say that works is the way toward righteousness.Let's try an analogy. No doubt you will say it is a bad analogy. All analogies look bad if you don't agree with the implication. So much for the analogy. My suggestion on the faith vs. works issue, is that the real solution is in a change of life style. You would need to develop a lifestyle such that doing good works becomes second nature to you. If you occasionally do something bad, or miss an opportunity to do a good deed, that will be largely corrected for by the way you carry out your changed way of living.I suspect that when jar say the important thing is "trying", he is really talking about such a changed lifestyle.

Hi TruthloverFor context you put up a section of Romans 6, starting at verse 12: "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies.." Your version didn't include the word 'therefore' whereas 3 versions I have include that. No big deal except words like therefore (and they are well worth looking out for should anyone be a biblical novice like me) etc point us back to something Paul has previously said. IOW he is making his current points in your quote as a consequence of something that has gone before. Which starts at verse 1 of the chapter.... Paul has presented the gospel and has concluded it in chapter 5 with assurance of salvation for believers. Although talking to Christians in Rome, he is also going to deal with a common objection when someone hears the gospel: assured salvation by grace through faith. "Hey, you mean I can sin all I like and still get to heaven. Hey Ho lets go - I'll have a piece of that!!!" A couple of things of note:- Pauls use of incredulity at the very thought of Gods grace being treated thus.. "How can we.." "Do you not know that all of us..."
- baptized into Christ
- the concept of born again
- certainty of resurrection (tying together nicely with "No condemnation for those who are in Christ" Romans 8:1) Paul is explaining why the Christian shouldn't for a moment think he is now free to sin as he likes. He is explaining the positional change that has happened (into Christ (out of Adam)). He talks elsewhere of citizenship/sonship/servanthood/heirs...of God. He is explaining to the Christian in technical terms, what has actually happened to him. He is pointing out the them how ludicrous it is to act in anyway contrary to the position they now hold. "Sin as you please?? - are you nuts - do you not know what you are??!! Your a son, an heir, a citizen of heaven, an adopted son, completely righteous etc "Only in the light of the above should the following exhortation be read... Mortal body and spirit are two separate things (covered amply in Romans. He talks here as elsewhere about where sin resides in the Christian. Not in the eternal spiritual bit but in the mortal, going to die, body. "You" - not mortal bodies but you the actual person who is you. You, spirit. And a person not under law cannot, obviously, break the law or be judged by the law. "If the son sets you free, you will be free indeed" This is a truism. The question is whose servant are you...? To paraphrase:
Sin? How can you? Do you not realise what has happened to you? You were trapped under law, in sin, dead to God but you have been translated out of that into something else - out of Adam and into Christ. Sin remains but now only in your mortal body. It's going to die but resist it precisely because of what your spiritual position is: a son, an heir - certain of heaven (which I've already just explained to you in chapter 5). Realise how glorius is this gospel - and start acting what you are. And lest you forget: remember that it is through Jesus that eternal comes to you - "it is not by works - lest anyone should boast"

But Jesus said:

quote:

---

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

---

And what is the will of God? "Love thy neighbour as thyself."Jesus was not talking about "adopted" brothers. He was talking about everybody who does the will of God. And who does the will of God? Well, that isn't for us to judge, is it?Therefore, it seems pretty clear that Jesus was talking about everybody being His brother - i.e. He was talking about general good works.The point of the passage is that those who claim to be "sons of God" will not be recognized. Only those who act like sons of God will be recognized.As I have said before, external works are a symptom of internal salvation. If the externals aren't there, neither are the internals.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

As I was reading the analogy I was seeing exactly how you would see it that way, but not agreeing with it's appropriateness. Until I got to this summation. The fact is that people try and try and try the diets and yet they slip back. They may gain a level of control by sheer force of will.What they need to succeed is a complete change of lifestyle. And this is where the gospel comes in. Gospel means Good News. What is this good news: is it yet another new fad diet, the torture of applying willpower, the despair of another failure to diet and the perpetual fear when one is on the wagon that one could so easily fall off the wagon, Hardly. It's more like torture...How about if someone came in and simply took your old lifestyle from you. Erased all the tendency to overeat, erased all the desire to overeat, who gave you the figure you always wanted - a perfect figure. Who did it all for you without you having to do a shred of work yourself.Now THAT would be good news. And that's the gospel too. God only knows why people want to make bad news out of it (well, it's kind of obvious but that would be another threads work. Speaking of which - this is all getting a bit off topic....ain't it

And what is not the will of God? Not loving your neighbour. Given that none of us can follow this COMMAND under our own steam the future don't look too bright. And if you are going to say (as I strongly suspect you will) "it means doing your best" then it would help if you could produce biblical backup for this positionAbE: John 1:12 "some however did receive Him
and believed in Him; so he gave them the right to be called children of God." seems to blow the "universal sonship" idea out of the water (and I didn't even quote Paul. Now that's a first This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 07:26 PM

Only an idiot or a sadist would demand 100% success from his children. Is God an idiot or a sadist?"The best you can do" is the only reasonable demand that a reasonable father would make. Why don't you produce Biblical evidence that God demands 100% success from us?Edit:Didn't see your edit at first. How so?This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-10-27 12:31 PM

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

[qs=Ringo]Only an idiot or a sadist would demand 100% success from his children. Is God an idiot or a sadist?[/]qsYou forget to include a completely righteous and holy God James 2:10-11, NIV. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.Right your turn. Biblical evidence of trying your best Some (not all) believed, recieved (action) "so he gave" (reaction). I don't see the problem - unless you are suggesting that we're all children of God but some get the right to be called it - like a special privilege or something.Go on Ringo, open the bible, lets use verses a little to make the points

Bingo. Some get to be called "brother" by God.We are not allowed to judge. Remember? Since we can not judge who is a son of God, or a brother of Jesus, we have to treat everybody as if they were.An analogy: suppose you are in a restaurant and the waitress makes a mistake in your order. You cuss her out, threaten to have her fired, etc. The next day, your brother introduces you to his fiance - the waitress.Moral of the story: Watch how you treat people because you never know who they are.You quoted:

quote:

---

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

---

That does not in any way imply that God required 100% success in obeying the law. It says exactly what I've been saying - that we can't be 100% successful and a "righteous and holy God" would not expect us to be.But what has all this got to do with sola scriptura?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

A timely point...seeing as my dinner is getting cooked too. Sorry all for the diversion.

I would interpret Matthew 25 as works before righteousness. I would concentrate on the Matthew passage where Jesus is speaking rather than promote Paul’s beliefs before Jesus’ words. I would say that to propose the latter is to suggest predestination, which I find difficult to accept as it means God created people in the knowledge that they would be eternally damned. But, Matthew 25 doesn’t hint at this, it looks as if Jesus is making general statements about good works. What you suggest, if I have read it properly, is that God is happy to see anyone doing good works but it is only if you have already accepted the Holy Spirit that these good works will be rewarded by God? But that then suggests to me that good works are not really that important. For example, once you have the HS then how many good works are enough? So someone who is in Christ has no motivation to do good works, or are they driven to do good works AFTER they are in Christ? It does indeed, and I think that to suggest that people have to be in Christ first smacks of predestination. Well I believe that Jesus, being a Jew, would view any Israelite as a ”son of god’ (Deut 14), so this may come down to the difference between this concept in the two testaments. Isn’t this suggesting that ”Christians’ are only blessed when they help other ”Christians’? I really don’t see where there is any discrimination between those who should be helped and those who shouldn’t in Matthew 25.But, not trying to be awkward here, I really think that Jesus is referring to ”brothers’ when He speaks of the goats. Look at the way it reads: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. When you do something for someone then you do it to Christ. This, IMO, means that when you DON’T do something for someone then you hurt Christ. When you do not feed someone you are doing something to them, you are keeping them hungry, and you are keeping Jesus hungry.
I would say that 25:14 is quite unambiguous ” Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.The “least of these” implies that they may not be in Christ, it suggests that they are people who are probably not well thought of or may not even be showing Christ like qualities. I think He sis still referring to brothers from v.40 Oh I don’t believe for a minute that it is straightforward, I also do not believe for a second that anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus as their Saviour, AND believe in the resurrection will be saved. The idea that an atheist will go to heaven is not something that I believe the Bible promotes, to me belief in your heart that Jesus conquered death will lead to correct works. I don’t think Jesus was as liberal as many people would like Him to have been.Brian.

Hi X,I think to answer the question you just need to ask yourself how people knew God before ANY scriptures were written.Think about all the prophets there were, take Othniel as an example, what was scripture at the time of the Judges?Brian.