Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?

The point I was trying to make is that you've ascribed (without biblical foundation) that 'only a damn fool' is the motivation behind Jesus criticising the pharisees legalism. Maybe there was more that could be said which you didn't say but I can only (try to) comment on what you write...

See post above to Jar. Ascribing something to scripture that isn't there occurs frequently but we can all do that and disappear in a haze of subjectivity. I would have thought it would be more interesting to try to see what scripture indicates these things meanBut with yourself and Jar I'm having a bit of a problem in that what scripture is itself is hardly established. There is no common foundation from which to push out from.On those grounds I'll finish up this discussion here

Thats the standard for debate around here, Iano. While you and I may believe that God is the source of all wisdom, truth, and enlightenment, evolutionists in general believe that humanity itself generates its own wisdom, truth, and discovery.Saying that the Bible is the source of truth will not convince anyone of the fact.In fact, I would not use the Bible as my source---I would use the internal unction of the Holy Spirit. But then, thats just me.

Ah, but you were suggesting that it wasn't there - claiming that you "looked and looked". I simply pointed out - for the benefit of lurkers mostly - that the passage not only exists (twice) but it's very easy to find.I would advise you to actually look at the Bible before you make assertions about it - and don't forget the gospels.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I wouldn't dream of using such a statement in a vacuum. The problem here is that Jar and Ringo and others frequently quote parts of the bible in making their point. And when another part of the bible is used to refute the point or make a counterpoint you get "but that's Pauls teaching" or " the bible is corrupted/of man etc" - which only seems to undermine their own point too.It seems as soon as you get into picking and choosing which is 'Gods word'(inerrant/accurate) and which is 'mans word' (potentially errant and inaccurate) then the discussion must cease. Like, whose to know which is which without getting into a quagmire of "it can never be shown one way or the other" subjectivityEither you stay within scripture to make a biblical case or it becomes a case of 'whatever your having yourself'. To which everyone is entitled I suppose.AbE: My own inclination is to think that there is no biblical case to be made for "trying" as a means to salvation /lack of 'trying' as a means to damnation. And that there is a case to be made for the sole purpose of the law being to condemn a man. But in order to avoid being exposed, the arbitary but useful "that is not the bible" ploy is pulled, rabbit-like, out of the hat when the need arisesThis message has been edited by iano, 26-Oct-2005 04:54 PM

Notice how quoting something out of context can twist the meaning? My quote-mine above suggests that you think quoting the Bible is a bad thing - which of course you don't.Similarly, quoting only Paul, for example, and ignoring what Jesus said is twisting the overall message of the Bible. So... where's the scriptural case for sola scriptura?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I would have no intention of ignoring Jesus. I would include parts from any part of the bible I felt was relevant to the case. You on the otherhand have decided to apply a (fairly arbitary sounding)weighting system. Which I can't see the basis for. That we haven't got common ground means we can't discuss the issue. Your talking imperial and I'm talking metric. A recipe for wasted time Your agreement that the bible was as if dictated by God - with which I concurred. I would have thought it would be sufficient. No matter. I haven't agreed to any other inerrant source so for the sake of the (ex-discussion) sola scriptura it was.Unless we agree to go outside sola scripture - in which case we could expect the IPU-ists to turn up in no time.I'd rather not....This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 10-26-2005 05:22 PM

We have plenty of common ground, but you choose to concentrate on the barriers. That's a really bad analogy. When I was in school, the metric system was taught as a curiosity. Now it's the law of the land. I'm equally fluent in both - to the point of sometimes switching back and forth in the same sentence. So, if there's an apples v. oranges problem here, it isn't on my side. Now you're getting confused again. That's a different thread. No such agreement exists in this thread. But sola scriptura is the topic here. And the question is: Does the Bible say that the Bible is the only source?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

And the answer to that is "The Bible cannot say the the Bible is the only source." That the Bible is the only source has always been a silly contention.There are several reasons.First, there is no such thing as THE Bible. The Ethiopian Christian Church Bible is different from the Roman Catholic Christians Bible. The Samaritan Christian Church Bible (which is probably the closest to what was meant by Scripture as known during the time of Christ) is unlike either of the others.Second, even the first Bibles were not compiled until hundreds of years after the content was written. Even then we have no idea of what the criteria was for selection or rejection or scripture.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Then how are we saved then?If our good actions are not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and if our bad actions are not a manifestation of our rejecting the Holy Spirit, then how exactly does God determine one's salvation?By the way, I did edit that previous post. here on this page...message 41

Actually, it can make that claim -- just as the Scriptures do make other claims about itself. The Scriptures, however, do not ever make that claim as far as I can determine.I'm not familiar with the Ethiopian Christian Church Bible or the Samaritan Christian Church Bible, but I don't think these "Bibles" ever make this claim either.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-27-2005 03:33 AM

Of course, silly me. I retract. As I'll point out to Mr X, I'll retract my arguments re: sola scripture. I'm pushing a 'trying' thread and am coming up short on time so...

Hi Mr XSorry for not returning to your counter to my counter to your OP. You did make very strong points, alas time constraints mean I can't go there right now so if you would, allow me to withdraw my argumentsOn the subject of trying, I've posed a thread on that subject so I may meet you there (although naturally in posing it I got to put some constraints in (just in case Ringo-the-cameleon trips across it )

Can we examinine that a little closer.Is 1 Enoch part of the Bible?Are the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John part of the Bible?At the time Jesus lived, what were the books of the Bible?What about when Paul was writting his Epistles?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Might as well get some practice in with a pro for the road ahead.How are we saved? By grace of course. Grace/gratis/graciousness. A free gift isn't a free gift if it has to be earned. Whilst the wages of sin is death (wages (in the form of damnation) being something earned) the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. The gift is from God. And like any free gift, it only has to be accepted. Not earned. In order to accept or reject the 'manifestation' of the Holy Spirit, one has to have the Holy Spirit in the first place. And having the Holy Spirit is limited to those that are in Christ, ie: those who are saved. Works subsequent to receiving the Holy Spirit don't have salvatory/damnatory value. Neither do works prior to having the Holy Spirit have salvatory/damnatory value - all who have not the Holy Spirit are damned anyway. IOW you get the Holy Spirit/are saved when you are put into Christ.Good deeds/works/trying your best/giving money to the poor etc etc has nothing at all to do with getting saved. So all you loose-living but back-of-the-mind-worried-about-hell heathens out there can relax as far as that goes This message has been edited by iano, 27-Oct-2005 03:31 PM