Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Sola Scriptura? Is it actually in the Scriptures?
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 106 (253899)
10-21-2005 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by DorfMan
10-21-2005 9:40 PM


Re: What does scripture mean?
Yup, read it. Laughed a lot.
Somehow you still seem to be missing both the obvious and impossible to refute point.
When you see the word Scripture used in the Bible it does not mean the Bible. It cannot. There was no Bible when those words were written.
The whole Sola Scriptura movement is based on a fallacy.
'Created canons' is a great call and description of what they are, for created they were.
Yes, the Bible is created, the work of man, and it's contents vary from sect to sect. Not only is there no such thing as THE Bible, the Bible is not Scripture as mentioned in the Bible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by DorfMan, posted 10-21-2005 9:40 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by DorfMan, posted 10-21-2005 10:00 PM jar has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 47 of 106 (253903)
10-21-2005 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
10-21-2005 9:47 PM


Re: What does scripture mean?
quote:
Yup, read it. Laughed a lot.
Somehow you still seem to be missing both the obvious and impossible to refute point.
When you see the word Scripture used in the Bible it does not mean the Bible. It cannot. There was no Bible when those words were written.
The whole Sola Scriptura movement is based on a fallacy.
'Created canons' is a great call and description of what they are, for created they were.
Yes, the Bible is created, the work of man, and it's contents vary from sect to sect. Not only is there no such thing as THE Bible, the Bible is not Scripture as mentioned in the Bible.
Indeed! And which part amused you best?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 10-21-2005 9:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 10-21-2005 10:15 PM DorfMan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 106 (253907)
10-21-2005 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DorfMan
10-21-2005 10:00 PM


Re: What does scripture mean?
Indeed! And which part amused you best?
I think the funniest part is the idea that Scripture is only the Bible and that when Scripture is mentioned in the Bible, it's refering to the Bible.
First, there is no single Bible. I'm not refering to translations, there is no one list of what books make up the Bible.
Second, since the Bible didn't exist until hundreds of years after the books that ended up being included, the reference to Scripture could not be refering to the Bible.
Third, the term Scripture at the time the books of the NT were being written refered to things that were to be learned, written and oral.
Fourth, there are NO writings from Jesus. All of his message was transmitted orally. If you are going to limit scripture to what was written, you can throw Jesus out.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by DorfMan, posted 10-21-2005 10:00 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by DorfMan, posted 10-22-2005 8:15 AM jar has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 49 of 106 (253961)
10-22-2005 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
10-21-2005 10:15 PM


Re: What does scripture mean?
quote:
Indeed! And which part amused you best?
I think the funniest part is the idea that Scripture is only the Bible and that when Scripture is mentioned in the Bible, it's refering to the Bible.
First, there is no single Bible. I'm not refering to translations, there is no one list of what books make up the Bible.
Second, since the Bible didn't exist until hundreds of years after the books that ended up being included, the reference to Scripture could not be refering to the Bible.
Third, the term Scripture at the time the books of the NT were being written refered to things that were to be learned, written and oral.
Fourth, there are NO writings from Jesus. All of his message was transmitted orally. If you are going to limit scripture to what was written, you can throw Jesus out.
So, you are saying that the RCC-originated treatise is wrong and they need not even worry about scripture? I wonder if they know that. Yours is a clear act of mercy and pardon. Remarkable!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 10-21-2005 10:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 10-22-2005 10:34 AM DorfMan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 106 (253970)
10-22-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by DorfMan
10-22-2005 8:15 AM


Re: What does scripture mean?
So, you are saying that the RCC-originated treatise is wrong and they need not even worry about scripture?
Well, perhaps you'll be kind enough to point out just where I said that?
Or maybe stop trying to put words in my mouth?
What I have said is that there is no justification for the idea that the only source for knowledge about GOD is the Bible and that when the term Scripture is used in the books of the Bible it is referring to far, far more than the Bible, no matter which version (version not translation) is chosen.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by DorfMan, posted 10-22-2005 8:15 AM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by DorfMan, posted 10-22-2005 9:43 PM jar has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 51 of 106 (254089)
10-22-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
10-22-2005 10:34 AM


Re: What does scripture mean?
quote:
they need not even worry about scripture?
Well, perhaps you'll be kind enough to point out just where I said that?
Or maybe stop trying to put words in my mouth?
What I have said is that there is no justification for the idea that the only source for knowledge about GOD is the Bible and that when the term Scripture is used in the books of the Bible it is referring to far, far more than the Bible, no matter which version (version not translation) is chosen.
I believe you said you read the treatise and concluded that the RCC need not have wasted time on such a study. If that is not the outcome of your effort, then please explain. What do you mean, exactly?
Here is the meaning of the word scripture: Middle English, from Late Latin scriptura, from Latin, act or product of writing, from scriptus. You say scripture refers to far, far more than scripture. I am, however, not familiar with additional meanings of this word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 10-22-2005 10:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 10-22-2005 10:02 PM DorfMan has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 106 (254092)
10-22-2005 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by DorfMan
10-22-2005 9:43 PM


Re: What does scripture mean?
IIRC the actual origin of the term Scripture came from the Greek word theopneustos which means God Breathed. It refers to anything that was inspired by GOD, written or oral.
But regardless,when we see the term Scripture in the Bible, it does not refer to the Bible. The Bible did not exist at the time they were written.
In addition, there is no one universal Bible today. The common Canon found in the RC and most Protestant churches is only one of many canons. Other Christian Churches have different Canons and so different books are included in the Bible.
A good example is the Book of Enoch, 1 Enoch. It was Scripture at the time the NT was written, quoted in Hebrews. But it never made it into the accepted canon of the Roman Catholic Church (and thus into the Protestant Canon) but IS included in the Canon of the Ethiopian Christian Church.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by DorfMan, posted 10-22-2005 9:43 PM DorfMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by DorfMan, posted 10-23-2005 10:28 AM jar has replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 53 of 106 (254142)
10-23-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by purpledawn
10-21-2005 8:10 AM


Re: Isaiah 8:16
So do you feel that it indicates that the Scriptures are the only reliable means -- or is this an example of a clear instruction for this time only but not necessarilly implying all the time?
Or is there something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by purpledawn, posted 10-21-2005 8:10 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 10-23-2005 8:32 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 54 of 106 (254148)
10-23-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-23-2005 8:01 AM


Re: Isaiah 8:16
quote:
or is this an example of a clear instruction for this time only but not necessarilly implying all the time?
Bingo!
It is very distinct instructions from Isaiah. Pack up the prophecy he (Isaiah) has written and the Torah. He will wait out the disaster that is coming.
Although, I'm sure he also packed a few of his belongings before going into exile.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-23-2005 8:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-23-2005 8:40 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 55 of 106 (254152)
10-23-2005 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by purpledawn
10-23-2005 8:32 AM


Re: Isaiah 8:16
Hope he didn't forget his band aids.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by purpledawn, posted 10-23-2005 8:32 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 56 of 106 (254171)
10-23-2005 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
10-22-2005 10:02 PM


Re: What does scripture mean?
quote:
IIRC the actual origin of the term Scripture came from the Greek word theopneustos which means God Breathed. It refers to anything that was inspired by GOD, written or oral.
But regardless,when we see the term Scripture in the Bible, it does not refer to the Bible. The Bible did not exist at the time they were written.
In addition, there is no one universal Bible today. The common Canon found in the RC and most Protestant churches is only one of many canons. Other Christian Churches have different Canons and so different books are included in the Bible.
A good example is the Book of Enoch, 1 Enoch. It was Scripture at the time the NT was written, quoted in Hebrews. But it never made it into the accepted canon of the Roman Catholic Church (and thus into the Protestant Canon) but IS included in the Canon of the Ethiopian Christian Church.
You maintain your tangent and choose not to answer my question(s). You don't need my permission to do so.
There is actually nothing wrong with oral traditions, and everything wrong with sacred tradition that bears no resemblence to original content. It is that deviation that prompted Sola Scriptura and the rejection of sacred tradition.
Mark 7:7-9, 13 "Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own
tradition...Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
II Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
These people did decidedly not know what they were talking about.
Since the plan of salvation is designed for all to understand, I insist that scripture means the written word and nothing else. The rest is mayhem, chaos, confusion.
B. Documentation
Vatican Council II Documents
No. 58, Dei Verbum, 18 Nov. 1965, Vol. I,
Sec. 10, p. 756 "It is clear, therefore, that, in the supremely wise
arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, sacred Scripture and the
Magisterium of the [Roman Catholic] Church are so connected and
associated that one of them cannot stand without the others."
Imagine it! The Bible cannot stand on its own and that is/was God's arrangement.
The Roman church alone is able to interpret scripture. That leaves you out and everyone else NOT the magisterium.
Sec. 10, p. 755 "But the task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the [Roman Catholic] Church alone."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 10-22-2005 10:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 10-23-2005 11:39 AM DorfMan has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 106 (254184)
10-23-2005 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by DorfMan
10-23-2005 10:28 AM


You Insist?
You maintain your tangent and choose not to answer my question(s).
Then perhaps it's because I haven't understood your questions. If you will list them for me I'll try again.
There is actually nothing wrong with oral traditions, and everything wrong with sacred tradition that bears no resemblence to original content.
That's good because most of the Bible was transmitted orally for a long, long time before being written down.
But that statement seems contradicted by...
Since the plan of salvation is designed for all to understand, I insist that scripture means the written word and nothing else.
When I combine those two conflicting statements with the paragraphs that preceeded the later...
Mark 7:7-9, 13 "Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own
tradition...Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."
II Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
These people did decidedly not know what they were talking about.
I really have to ask just what it is that you are saying.
It seems to me that you're saying oral traditions are okay but that only written material will be excepted excluding the writings of Mark and Paul because those two don't know what they are talking about.
Beyond the absolute absurdity of you insisting that only certain material may be considered, you still have not specified what is to be included in Scripture.
Is the Bible Scripture?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by DorfMan, posted 10-23-2005 10:28 AM DorfMan has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 58 of 106 (254431)
10-24-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
10-20-2005 3:40 PM


Re: Use your head
Jar writes:
Jesus says that you should use the brain your given and not check it at the door. He says "If your donkey falls in a ditch on the Sabbath only a damn fool would wait until the next day to haul it out".
I know I'm only a nubie in your eyes so I looked and looked and I couldn't find this quote. I take it then that your paraphrasing. Which is not the same thing as having scripture demonstrate it.
This is a bit like your doctrine "we are expected to try our best to obey the law". It is assumed of scripture rather than being shown to be so. "It's the obvious conclusion...." is not a tack that can be taken in this, a discussion about such things.
This message has been edited by iano, 24-Oct-2005 03:54 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 10-20-2005 3:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 10-24-2005 10:58 AM iano has replied
 Message 60 by ringo, posted 10-24-2005 12:19 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 106 (254434)
10-24-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
10-24-2005 10:54 AM


Re: Use your head
Yes, I'm paraphrasing. Notice I did not put it quotes.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 10:54 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by iano, posted 10-26-2005 9:10 AM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 106 (254462)
10-24-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by iano
10-24-2005 10:54 AM


Re: Use your head
iano writes:
... I looked and looked and I couldn't find this quote.
Since I have the old e-Sword out:
quote:
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
And also:
quote:
Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Took me less time to find it than to read your post.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by iano, posted 10-24-2005 10:54 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by iano, posted 10-26-2005 9:14 AM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024