God of the Bible as Flawed Human

Ever heard of the proverb "a stitch in time"Apparently not.("God calling Iano, God calling Iano. Come in Iano. I have a proverb for you too. You know it well enough by now, you fool. God calling Iano...")

your posts have broken down into nothing besides utter nonsense. do you intend to make a point?i'll repeat.

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both proverbs say "according to his folly."

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you cannot say that this is the difference -- that we are to answer fools, but not according to their follies. BOTH proverbs say "according to his folly." one says "answer according to his folly" and the other says "don't answer according to his folly."this is the "reading comprehension" bit we were talking about. the words on the page are important, iano. you can't just pretend that some of them aren't there, or that there are more there that everybody else sees.

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Just a closing comment - my last quip wasn't the way to end it given the effort we both put in.I've made my closing comments already but had to fill in yours from what I could gather was your positionIf you fancy it, write your own Heads closing position (say around the same length as mine with links to other stuff if you like). Cut and paste the Tail argument from my post (including the link to post 96) and post the lot as a final statement for posterity to any others who might want an opinion on what the proverbs are said to be saying/doing/achievingIanEdited by iano, : Edit out rats ass (obliquely blasphemous)

again, you missed the point. actually, ironically, misunderstanding the proverbial saying in the process.i do not make heads or tails.Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.

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If you like, write your closing position on the debate: your take on what should be done in approaching the two proverbs and and call it what you want.head and tails simply represents opposing views: yours and mine.

see Message 93. yes, but i was using it to describe the two opposing viewpoints of the proverbs in question. i asked you to make heads or tails of them. you made "tails" by way of arguing that "heads" wasn't real.Edited by arachnophilia, : can we move on now?

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It's the Book of Proverbs , not the Book of Prohibitions.It's about advice, not commandments. Different situations require different advice, so there's no problem with having two conflicting proverbs. Why all the wasted effort trying to reconcile them?

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because i stupidly asked him to, because i thought it would demonstrate this obvious fault in his reasoning. but evidently, not to iano -- who cannot see past his preconceptions, even in light of evidence that contradicts them.the bible is the word of god, and god is consistent, so two verses that say exactly opposite things must in fact actually agree. nevermind that they don't.

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back in Message 8, before i hopelessly sidetracked this thread trying to teach iano to read, i mentioned the story of moses convincing god to not destroy the israelites for worshipping the golden calf. god is suckered into sparing the israelites from his "justified" wrath and jealousy, out of ego. moses says,

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Exd 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

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what will the egyptians think? moses tries another tactic as well.

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Exd 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

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guilt. should god do it, he would be guilty of breaking his promise. you will find that this is a common theme. in genesis 18, there is a classic account of a prophet pleading with god -- and manipulating god out of guilt.

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Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

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abraham then bargains god down on the number of righteous to be found in the city for god to spare it. here's another less famous example, but maybe more clear. in amos 7, god is going to send a plaque of locusts to israel. amos argues:

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Amo 7:2 And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.

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and it works:

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Amo 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

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god starts fires, and amos again argues

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Amo 7:5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.

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and it works:

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Amo 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

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but, god eventually wins out:

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Amo 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:

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Amo 7:9 And the high places of Isaac shall be desolate, and the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste; and I will rise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.

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amos uses guilt to convince god that he should pity israel, reminding him of his promise -- one which he was not required to keep. israel had sinned, and god's "righteous jealousy" fully allowed (and even commanded) their punishment.and important thing to notice: god wavers. he goes back on his decision twice, and goes against his word. he is manipulated by guilt of an unfulfilled prophecy and a broken promise -- and the slaughter of innocents. something he had no problem with in egypt, and has every right to do.why can god be manipulated by mankind's persuasion? why can a prophet guilt god into doing something? why does god feel guilt for wanting to do something entirely justified? god, in these examples, is portrayed as a very human character, subject to changing his mind and emotions like guilt, and jealousy, and pity.

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You mean a proverbs advice won't include a prohibition - like this Chinese proverb does?

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Do not fear going forward slowly; fear only to stand still.

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Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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i arrived at my conclusion by looking at the source critically, for what it was, (something you no doubt see as an assumption, but is actually based on analyzing the text), and by logically demonstrating how such phrases were used.

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Arach, I wonder if one of us (er, meaning you, probably) could do this with some other non-Bible text, perhaps with Shakespeare, as a demonstration?Maybe some of Hamlet's speeches would do?Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

There is no need to. The assumption that the Bible is the word of God is not required in my own analysis of these proverbs. That I attribute the wisdom to him arises out of a not-central-to-analysis assumptionThe assumptions required to arrive at what I arrived at are:- that we are dealing with two proverbs
- that a piece of wisdom or advice was contained within each
- that each proverb stands on its own. Although if combined they may lead to a greater wisdom than the sum of their parts.
- that all the words in the proverb were relevant to the message contained.I can't recall Arach providing a clear, stand alone statement of what he felt either of the proverbs were saying. I do recall (as late as message 93) Arach referring to his reading of Pr 26:5 There is nothing in the text indicate 'better'. When challenged on this. Silence.
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While I'm at it. Any response to msg 96?http://EvC Forum: God of the Bible as Flawed Human -->EvC Forum: God of the Bible as Flawed Human.It attempts to deal with your opinion that the proverbs contradicted each otherEdited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Of course that Chinese proverb doesn't contain a prohibition. Fear is certainly not something that can be prohibited.Do you really not understand the difference between advice and prohibition?

1. It is illegal to drink alcohol.
2. It is a bad idea to drink too much alcohol.

Can you really not see the difference?The two proverbs (in Proverbs) can conflict without diminishing the value of the Bible. The fact that they are side by side suggests that the authors were trying to make that point (or that they had a sense of humour ).

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I agree. Prohibit is not the right word. "Advised against...lest" is correct in the spirit of a proverb. Thanks for pointing out the minor error Of course they can only conflict if they do conflict. If they don't then they cannot

removedEdited by arachnophilia, : post withdrawn, ringo did a better job anyways

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