Arbitrary Salvation?

Unfortunately Acts 10:34 doesn't address reject of Jesus or the Gospel.Peter just realized that God accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.In verse 43 Peter does say that everyone who believes (to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in) in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name, but I don't see Peter addressing damnation for rejection of the gospel or Jesus.This message has been edited by purpledawn, 12-26-2005 01:42 PM

---

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

I take the following from your post:1) One who truly believes in Christ will invariably commit good works.2) Good works are, by themselves, worthless when it comes to salvation. Their only function is to serve as evidence of said salvation.True believers may indeed practice good deeds, but that isn't really the point. Atheists, for instance, may live a life full of comparable or even better deeds, but still fall short of salvation. The reason? They don't believe in Christ. Personally, I see something unjust about that. I understand that it might be just as far as God is concerned, but if that's the case, then my problem is with his criteria.The same situation keeps arising in my mind. Two people lead identical lives, their religious beliefs being the only difference. God accepts one into his kingdom and rejects the other. The line drawn between them is arbitrary.

The correct way to communicate with God might be better for another topic. I'd like to keep this one focused on the OP.

You are under the false impression that it is possible for atheists and believers to "live identical lives." Good works in love of God versus good works in rejection of God are entirely different things. Like most people you have the whole thing backwards. You are under the illusion that human beings deserve something from God. The fact is that we all deserve Hell, but because He is a God of love He has chosen to save some of us, not for any merit in us, that's for sure, but just because it pleases Him to save some. We'd rather He saved you than that He didn't. Christians no doubt pray for you.All I can say to your feeling it is all so unjust is that you will have the opportunity some day to tell it to the Judge. I hope you will have changed your mind by then.

quote:

---

You are under the false impression that it is possible for atheists and believers to "live identical lives."

---

What is false about it? An atheist can lead an identical life to a Christian in terms of good works. Indeed, some lead better lives in that respect. This other groups isn't limited to atheists either. It can include members of other religions as well. Ghandi, for instance, led a better life than many Christians.

quote:

---

Good works in love of God versus good works in rejection of God are entirely different things.

---

Good works in rejection of God? I know of no such thing. I know about good works in love of my fellow man. If there is a difference in the good works in love of God, it is to their detriment for those works would be done to serve someone other than their fellow human beings.

quote:

---

You are under the illusion that human beings deserve something from God. The fact is that we all deserve Hell, but because He is a God of love He has chosen to save some of us, not for any merit in us, that's for sure, but just because it pleases Him to save some.

---

Explain to me why we all deserve hell. Why? I've done nothing to deserve eternal damnation. Is the entire human race doomed because of Adam and Eve. Seems a bit unfair to punish all of us for something we had no part in.

quote:

---

We'd rather He saved you than that He didn't. Christians no doubt pray for you.

---

I know that they are sincere in their belief and concern. I appreciate such gestures.

quote:

---

All I can say to your feeling it is all so unjust is that you will have the opportunity some day to tell it to the Judge.

---

I cannot lie to myself. I have reasons for my lack of belief, and if called to explain them, i'm prepared to state my case to the best of my ability.

You HAVE done things to deserve Hell. That's the point. We have lost our sensitivity to how completely at odds with God's nature we are since the Fall, the infinite requirements of the Law, of God's nature. We think we are good when we are not. Simply doubting God is a tremendous sin. But I don't suppose this will persuade you either.

If you have not already, you might find the book by Richard Elliott Friedman entitled "Who Wrote The Bible" interesting. It deals with the Documentary Hypothesis.You will find that the sacrifical laws are a later addition to the Jewish religion.Prior to that God forgave sin for those who turned from their "wicked" ways. The sacrifices themselves were only for unintentional sins anyway. Personally I think it was more of a political thing or "cash cow" so to speak.

quote:

---

Good works in rejection of God? I know of no such thing. I know about good works in love of my fellow man. If there is a difference in the good works in love of God, it is to their detriment for those works would be done to serve someone other than their fellow human beings.

---

I think the author of the Book of John agrees with you in a way: Although I think that this author also brought in the exclusionary concept.I mean how can one reject someone who doesn't talk to them?IMO, the gospel that Jesus preached has not been preached to people today. Jesus spread the good news about the kingdom of God being at hand. Repent.Paul preached his own gospel, but I don't feel that he ever said what that was in his authentic letters. He wrote to people he had already preached to or had planned on visiting. I'm not sure that his letters actually contained his gospel.

---

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

quote:

---

You HAVE done things to deserve Hell. That's the point. We have lost our sensitivity to how completely at odds with God's nature we are since the Fall, the infinite requirements of the Law, of God's nature.

---

What things? Was I just born with sin?Are all of us at odds with God's nature? What about those who do tremendous good in the world. If they are at odd with God's nature, what does that say about his nature?

quote:

---

We think we are good when we are not.

---

Define good. How do we know if we are good?

quote:

---

Simply doubting God is a tremendous sin.

---

Why? This has never made sense to me. Are we punished for exercising the reason we're endowed with?

quote:

---

But I don't suppose this will persuade you either.

---

Not to my satisfaction, no, but it's not because i'm unwilling to be persuaded.

I will certainly try to track down the book. Thanks for the reccomendation and input.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a matter of not being able because of the sin nature to love God as we should or love our neighbor as we should. No matter how good we are in some sense or other we are simply incapable of being good enough. It's in our nature. It says He is so amazingly holy that we can't even imagine what such holiness is. Whatever you think good is isn't really good. That's all I was saying. Our reason is FALLEN, we are not what we were created to be. At the Fall our first parents lost their spiritual life in God, and all their capacities began to die. Our life depends upon God but sin destroys our connection with God, destroys our lifeline, and that means all our abilities. Over the millennia since then the infirmities have simply accumulated in the human race. We don't think as clearly as we were originally created to think (if we did we'd all agree with each other about everything). Have you spent much time reading the Bible or reading CHristian books?

quote:

---

No matter how good we are in some sense or other we are simply incapable of being good enough. It's in our nature.

---

If it's in our nature, what's the problem? It would be unfair to punish a lion or rabbit for acting according to their nature.

quote:

---

It says He is so amazingly holy that we can't even imagine what such holiness is.

---

Well, what I meant was, someone that does great things for people couldn't be "at odds" with God's nature. You can say they don't live up to his standard of excellence, but I fail to see how they could be at odds.

quote:

---

Whatever you think good is isn't really good. That's all I was saying.

---

Two people feed and shelter the homeless. One is a Christian and one isn't. It's the same act, but is it only good in the Christian's case? Again, the difference is arbitrary.

quote:

---

Our reason is FALLEN, we are not what we were created to be. At the Fall our first parents lost their spiritual life in God, and all their capacities began to die. Our life depends upon God but sin destroys our connection with God, destroys our lifeline, and that means all our abilities. Over the millennia since then the infirmities have simply accumulated in the human race. We don't think as clearly as we were originally created to think (if we did we'd all agree with each other about everything).

---

If that is the case, then my fallen reason is a result of Adam and Eve's actions, yes? If so, i'm being punished for something I had no part in. I also fail to see how conformity is evidence of clear thought.

quote:

---

Have you spent much time reading the Bible or reading CHristian books?

---

It was reading the bible, in part, that led me to hold the opinions of religion I have.This message has been edited by Madfish, 12-27-2005 09:49 PM

A good relativist might tell you that "justness" IS arbitrary. The reason you find it just is because your arbitrarily selected justness conflicts with that you view.For example, you seem to believe that an individual should be judged for their actions, not those of their ancestors. Or that an individual shouldn't be blamed for things that they cannot help but do (i.e. use fallen reason).I'd suggest those feelings are arbitrary.Looking forward to your thoughts.Ben

---

Walk for cure - support the JDF!

What can I say, you don't want to accept anything I've said so far, so I don't see any reason to continue at what is certain to be more of the same. You trust your own thinking process completely, and dismiss mine and most of the history of Christianity for that matter. That's your prerogative of course. I wish you the best.

faith, you have to realize that when you're talking to ex-christians, repeating the dogma they're questioning isn't an effective strategy."this doesn't make sense, here's why."
"well, that's because [original statement]."
"uh, that's what i'm saying doesn't make sense."
"i can't talk to you, you don't want to hear it!!!"

---

אָרַח

Stop lecturing me.