Questions of Reliability and/or Authorship

Anglagaard,Thanks for providing this link with the other links you referenced from the Apologetics Index:The Testimony of the Local Churches and Living Stream Ministry Good work Anglagaard!Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Thirty years of devotion, and you need to ask an infidel to show you where to find the words of your prophet! Fortunately for you, this infidel is a saint.

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Sooner or later, you have to be made God, either in the church age or in the coming kingdom age. All of God’s redeemed people will eventually become gods as the very God in life, in nature, and in appearance but not in the Godhead. The New Jerusalem is the God-men who have been transformed, glorified, and mingled with the processed and consummated Triune God.

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Witness Lee, The Practical Points Concerning Blending, fifth printing, 2001 (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1994), p. 46. Read your prophet here!(First paragraph)

Yep. Thirty years and thousands of thousands of pages, hundreds of messages, lots of repetitions.Do you mind if I get the reference? Oh! I see. Lee said "All of God's redeemed people". I thought Alnglagaard was insituating that only an elite few at Living Stream Ministry were to participate in this. You know, only those under a Right Wing authoritarian conspiracy?Oh! I see. Lee said " BUT .... not in the Godhead". I thought Anglagaard was insinuating that some people at Living Stream Ministry were going to somehow put God out of business or something, replacing God.Oh, I see. He is talking about a collective and corporate city - New Jerusalem as God's goal rather than a million individual new Gods replacing the one God.Well, the New Jerusalem is called the Bride and the Wife of the Lamb in the Bible. That must mean that the New Jerusalem must MATCH Christ in some way. And we believe that the Bible says that Christ is God-man.So if the God-man is going to marry a Wife and Bride she must be LIKE HIM in some profound way. Is that LSM's concoction or is that what the Bible says? See Revelation 21 and 22 please.Processed and consummated Triune God? Yes I understand that. I have heard that the Word Who was God became flesh (John 1:14). I have heard that the last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)Do you have a problem with any of this? Lee is just elaborating on what is right there in the Bible.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Instead of tossing links back and forth why not discuss with me what you want to talk about?This is a Discussion Forum and a Bible Study.What in the first paragraph has you troubled? I looked at the outline of the first chapter. I am not sure what you meant by "first paragraph".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Jaywill it seems that you have been having a very interesting discussion here I am not familiar with the group to which you are asscociated. Do you have a specific website that will set out its exact beliefs and positions?As I am a member of the Church of Christ, you know that other cult, ha ha. i would be interested in what you believe the bible states about how one enters the Kingdom of Christ.I have challenged Phat and Anglangaard to state what it is that they expect an "Spirit Filled" person to or act like and they have moved away from thier assertion. I have also, challenged them to state in no uncertain terms thier positions on these matters, but they seem to not want to debate but quibble.Anywho, Ihpoe you dont mind me asking these questions.D BertotI

I'd be honored. I have enjoyed your solid articles very much.Since the opposition arose many articles have a polemic flavor to them. I will try to include links which do not have that understandably defensive posture.Here is something onChristian Websites set up by the workers Christian Web SiteThe Scriptures - The Scriptures - Source & History: refs. include Witness Lee, Watchman NeeGod's Economy - God‘s Economy: recovered by Witness Lee, enjoyed by local churchesChrist's Incarnation - http://www.christincarnation.orgRegeneration - Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regenerationPray Reading the Word - Pray-reading: refs. include Witness Lee, Watchman NeeWitness Lee - Witness Lee A Bondslave of Jesus ChristWatchman Nee - Watchman Nee A Seer of the Divine Revelation LOL!I am somewhat familiar with the Princetom NJ Church of Christ. And I have been to Bible Talks at the Boston Church of Christ.A long time ago I was immersed by some brothers from the Church of Christ in Princeton NJ. That was around 71 or 72. This is a problem. We can learn from one another if we are honest and up front and willing to learn.I have learned some things from people with whom I did not agree on this Forum. That is some things. I don't mind.Browse around on those websites. I highly recommend that you search for a theological publication from LSM called Affirmation and Critique. That magazine is specifically tailored for those a little more versed in theology education or church history.Affirmation & Critique - A Journal of Christian ThoughtYou can ask me about my own experience or anything else if I can be of help.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You asked for the reference, nitwit, so I gave it. I have no wish to discuss your idiotic superstitions, and my original post was a joke at your expense. It doesn't trouble me any more than the ramblings of any other self-appointed holy man. It's mumbo jumbo, but no worse than St. Paul or Mohamed.

A "Spirit Filled" person would heal the sick, feed the poor, and bring peace, as stated here in Matthew 25:31-46:

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25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

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25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

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25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

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25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

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25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

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25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

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25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

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25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

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25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

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25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

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25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

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25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

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25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

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25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

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25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Now I'm sure like all good judges, you can quote mine other parts of the Bible that support a faith-only, behavior don't count, version. Of course by doing so, you will not only show how the Bible contradicts itself, but also show how one will censor the Bible to support the cheap grace position.Want Biblical justification? Try Matthew 7, as in all of it.

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1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

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3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

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4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

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5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

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7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

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8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

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9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

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10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

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11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

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12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

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13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

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14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

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15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

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16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

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17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

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18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

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19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

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20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

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21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

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23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

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25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

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26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

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27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

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28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

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29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

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As for any matter you choose to debate, just ask. If you want to call everything I state a quibble to make yourself feel better, feel free.Also, I work for a living. Don't expect me to always be there every waking moment simply waiting to respond to your posts as your seemingly inflated ego appears to demand. I have other, more important issues that come first.Edited by anglagard, : Include Matthew 25, for those who won't follow links.Edited by anglagard, : discovered a to in place of the.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Then why use the same word "God" to confer two different concepts? Isn't the English language confusing enough without adding to the problem?Besides, even should one insist on using the term "God" in this context, couldn't one use a qualifier, such as becoming a servant of God, or becoming what God intends us to be, instead of just saying "becoming God," that brings up some serious questions concerning one's humility in defining their role in the universe?Also, how is claiming to be "God" or "as God" something less than declaring oneself 'saved' and therefore above any and all rules of conduct as the cheap grace crowd would have it? Well, one would have to ask a Christian Scientist about what they consider their relative roles, not me. As for either Mary Baker Eddy or John, neither are Christ, a point apparently easily missed. If you were to take out the independent and near-co-equal aspects of this teaching and instead state one is or becomes a part of God, you would be accused of pantheism.Please feel free to elaborate further as I am unfamiliar with this, to me, strange and unusual doctrine.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Had you actually read the link I provided to Altemeyer's research, you would realize his term 'right-wing authoritarianism' has little or nothing to do with the terms 'right wing,' republicans, or conservatives in general except where they have authoritarian leanings and instead has everything to do with authoritarianism in general, whatever its source. I would provide a direct quote but the files are in pdf and I am presently too tired and lazy to see if I can convert them to something I can quote directly. Maybe later.It was not only a debate point but also a test to see if you would read any links I may put up.Sorry, you flunked.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

See Message 308Perhaps you should include Matthew 7 and 25 in your 35 years of study. Actually I made a mistake by stating this as not all versions of the Bible actually even include the New Testament nor am I able to reference more than 20 versions. What I should have said was all New Testaments of which I am familiar. As for essential teachings, I would include the golden rule or even that part about "judge not lest ye be judged." Now supporting this point will involve an unusually long post. Is that what you demand?As to self-righteousness, I just admitted I made a mistake. Time will tell if you can do the same.Also, it would help move the debate process along if you can tell me which translation of the Bible is the one you consider infallible and 'inspired by God' as there are several different versions, as I have pointed out.And a minor point, could you and jaywill please learn how to use the spell checker in Firefox or at least Google. Your posts with all those misspellings make you two look as if you lack a proper grasp of the English language.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Hey, you get tired too? So likewise I didn't stop and read through every article in your link when I'd rather discuss our topics here.And if YOU had read your link to Apologetics Index you might have realized that it included a thorough defense and confirmation from Fuller Theological Seminary saying that the local churches were in fact, NOT a cult.F to you too. You didn't read it yourself. You pointed me to some information. I pointed you to some likewise.No. I didn't spend the next half hour reading a bunch of things that I have pretty much heard elsewhere for some years now. It was like left over chop suey. Real big deal - "I'm in a cult." Sure. You too. And stop lying. You're not "sorry" at all.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Anglagaard,Your reference to a Spirit filled person from Matthew 25 is in error.Actually those to whom Christ is speaking in Matthew 25:31-46 who represent the "sheep" are not Spirit filled and are probably not even Christians.There are three parties at that judgment scene:1.) The sheep
2.) The goats
3.) These the least of the brothers of Christ.The brothers of Christ, Who would be the ones Spirit filled, are the criteria against which the sheep and the goats are judged. If they are the criteria related to how the sheep and goats are to be judged then they cannot themselves be in either catagory.So the sheep are not the least of the Lord's brothers. But they are examined as to how they TREATED the least of the Lord's brothers.This is a judgment of the living nations who are on the earth at the time of the conclusion of the Great Tribulation and the commencement of the millennial kingdom.To have nations for the saints of God to rule over there must be some nations preserved from the church age and transfered into the age of the millennial kingdom - the kingdom prepared for the sheep from the foundation of the world.That is unless you think that for the saints to reign means that they reign over each other, which is not very logical.The sheep nations then are restored to a condition of Adam before the fall of man - innocent and with no particular reason to die. That is the kingdom prepared for the sheep "from the foundation of the world."We can discuss this further if you don't understand.Now you can kind of "borrow" the passage because so many things in it are commendable. But actually it does not refer to Christians. It refers to the Gentile nations which do not follow Antichrist as the goats did, in the end times.

I intentionally used semiquotes when using the term cult to indicate that I do not believe this moniker should be applied to your religious denomination.It is clear to me that with some 100,000 converts, a lack of desire to commit mass suicide, and no record in my research so far, that your denomination uses force to prevent converts from leaving 'the fold,' it does not meet the usual definitions of a cult.Evidently you are unused to how I use semiquotes to confer my use of non-standard definitions I do not agree with.The end deal is you have and still refuse to read what I link to while I am currently studying your take on Christianity and will shortly be perusing the links you yourself have provided.Of course posts such as this one will likely make me lose interest as "ye shall know them by their fruits." Judging me as an unworthy liar is indeed easier than Matthew 7:1.Is this what we can expect from your self-proclaimed near-equality to God? A person unable to control their emotions despite a claim to near-perfection?I am indeed sorry for you that despite any claim to such massive scholarship involving Christianity, that once confronted with the actual words of the Sermon on the Mount, you still deny many fundamental lessons in the NT, IMHO. Edited by anglagard, : add IMHO as I do not declare myself the arbiter of truth.

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Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis BaconThe more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

Anglagard writes; I also work for a living. Also how do you debate with someone that makes two fatal mistakes, that of assertion and piety. You gave me nothing to respond to initially. Secondly, now you quote verses and assume I and others are not following those quotes. Again how do you decide or determine people are not doing this without knowing them?I believe your initial argument was that your secular firends act no different than christians so how do you tell the difference? Now you are chainging it to a question piety. So how do I proceed?D Bertot