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Author Topic:   Condemn gay marriage, or just gay rape?
jt
Member (Idle past 5597 days)
Posts: 239
From: Upper Portion, Left Coast, United States
Joined: 04-26-2004


Message 1 of 573 (489711)
11-29-2008 1:53 PM


With the issue of gay marriage being so relevant right now, I figure it would be a great time for a fresh discussion of what the Bible truly says about the issue.
Modern translations of the Bible into English make it clear as day that engaging in homosexual behavior is sin. But some people say that these translations are not accurate, and that the original phrasing in Greek and Hebrew only condemns gay rape, prostitution, temple rites, etc. From this viewpoint, the Bible is silent on the issue of same-gendered marriage.
Is it valid historical, linguistic, and cultural scholarship to interpret the Bible in this way? Or is it needlessly complicated hand-waving that explains away a valuable teaching and shoehorns human reasoning into scripture?
See a biased take here: Religion, the Bible and same-sex marriages
Edited by jt, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 573 (489822)
11-30-2008 8:51 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 3 of 573 (489889)
11-30-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jt
11-29-2008 1:53 PM


Hello JT,
It seems like this thread is getting off to a slow start.
As a Christian I will reply as to my understanding of the scriptures. First and foremost, the laws and commandments of God are made to help man. They are not made for a hinderance to trap man or bring condemnation to him.
Modern translations of the Bible into English make it clear as day that engaging in homosexual behavior is sin.
Yes, actually virtually any translation makes this clear. But so what? The Bible also clearly defines heterosexual behavior as sinful. In fact, there are significantly more verses addressing heterosexual sin than there are homosexual sin. The point is that there is only one sexual activity that is blessed, and that is sexual activity between one man and one woman within a marriage relationship. All other heterosexual and homosexual activity is condemned.
But some people say that these translations are not accurate, and that the original phrasing in Greek and Hebrew only condemns gay rape, prostitution, temple rites, etc. From this viewpoint, the Bible is silent on the issue of same-gendered marriage.
Yes many people say alot of things about the Bible. However the scripture is not silent on marriage. Marriage has had a definition in every known cultural language including the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic of the Bible. Many passages address marriage, and they are excusively related to a relationship between a man and a woman as is the definition.
Is it valid historical, linguistic, and cultural scholarship to interpret the Bible in this way? Or is it needlessly complicated hand-waving that explains away a valuable teaching and shoehorns human reasoning into scripture?
I think it is the second statement. There is an intrinsic value in marriage that cannot be achieved naturally in a homosexual relationship. (multiply and fill the earth) God makes man aware of that value over and over again in scripture. There are also diseases associated with all types of sexual activity outside of a mariage relationship. Again, God's laws are for the good of man.
Gay marriage is not something new. Reference to this concept occurs within the Roman Empire before 100AD. However, the Romans got the concept from the Greeks long before, and it was probably practiced during those times as well. It is interesting to note that the most often quoted New Testament passage against homosexuality is in the book of Romans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jt, posted 11-29-2008 1:53 PM jt has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by kuresu, posted 11-30-2008 6:03 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied
 Message 5 by bluescat48, posted 11-30-2008 6:09 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 4 of 573 (489898)
11-30-2008 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AlphaOmegakid
11-30-2008 5:28 PM


There is an intrinsic value in marriage that cannot be achieved naturally in a homosexual relationship. (multiply and fill the earth)
Of course, as we're all well aware, marriage is not a requisite to "multiply and fill the earth". Just how many marriages are a result of a pregnancy? And how many bastards are there (using the original definition)? Marriage is not required to increase human population. It really is nothing more than a form of social, legal, and political control.
There are also diseases associated with all types of sexual activity outside of a mariage relationship.
And you can still get those diseases within marriages. For christ's sake, you don't even have to kiss to spread oral herpes. Just drink out of the same cup with someone who has a cold sore. Then your partner catches it from you (in the marriage, no less). Marriage does not give you immunity from STDs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-30-2008 5:28 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-30-2008 9:32 PM kuresu has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 5 of 573 (489899)
11-30-2008 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by AlphaOmegakid
11-30-2008 5:28 PM


I think it is the second statement. There is an intrinsic value in marriage that cannot be achieved naturally in a homosexual relationship. (multiply and fill the earth) God makes man aware of that value over and over again in scripture.
So then it should be illegal for a woman past menopause to Marry? Or For a man who had his testicles blown off in combat?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-30-2008 5:28 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-30-2008 9:38 PM bluescat48 has replied

AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 6 of 573 (489920)
11-30-2008 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by kuresu
11-30-2008 6:03 PM


Of course, as we're all well aware, marriage is not a requisite to "multiply and fill the earth"
Nobody said it was....strawman
Just how many marriages are a result of a pregnancy?
Do you see out of wedlock pregnancies as an overall plus or a minus to society? God sees it as a minus. Your connotation makes me think you agree with Him.
And how many bastards are there (using the original definition)?
Quite a few the last I checked. Again, I will ask you, do you think bastardized children are an overall plus or minus to society?
It really is nothing more than a form of social, legal, and political control.
Then why would homosexuals want it? Or for that matter, why would you, or anyone else want to legislate this control on them?
And you can still get those diseases within marriages.
Not unless at least one partner has had sexual relations outside of marriage.
For christ's sake, you don't even have to kiss to spread oral herpes. Just drink out of the same cup with someone who has a cold sore. Then your partner catches it from you (in the marriage, no less). Marriage does not give you immunity from STDs.
I guess you don't understand the difference between oral herpes (HSV-1) and genital herpes (HSV-2). Genial herpes is considered an STD. HSV-1 is not.
Sex only within marriage by both partners guarantees no STD's. This includes virginity before marriage.

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AlphaOmegakid
Member (Idle past 2876 days)
Posts: 564
From: The city of God
Joined: 06-25-2008


Message 7 of 573 (489921)
11-30-2008 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by bluescat48
11-30-2008 6:09 PM


So then it should be illegal for a woman past menopause to Marry? Or For a man who had his testicles blown off in combat?
How much straw do you need for this strawman?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by bluescat48, posted 11-30-2008 6:09 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 8 of 573 (489922)
11-30-2008 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by AlphaOmegakid
11-30-2008 9:38 PM


If a person is going to say that marriage is solely legal between a man & a woman because homosexuals marriages can't produce children then the items I mentioned should also apply. Stupidity works both ways.
One more thing, provide one non religious reason that shows any reason why homosexuals should not be allowed to marry each other.
Edited by bluescat48, : added line

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

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 Message 7 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-30-2008 9:38 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 9 of 573 (489923)
11-30-2008 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AlphaOmegakid
11-30-2008 9:32 PM


I guess you don't understand the difference between oral herpes (HSV-1) and genital herpes (HSV-2). Genial herpes is considered an STD. HSV-1 is not.
except both viruses cause herpes in both places.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 11-30-2008 9:32 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 10 of 573 (489928)
11-30-2008 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by bluescat48
11-30-2008 9:43 PM


marriage by definition relates to male/female relationships ... it did so in the bible, and it does so in every nation on earth today
if gays want to create a word that defines their own relationship, they should do that
most of them are fairly creative people... surely they can put their heads together and come up with something

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by bluescat48, posted 11-30-2008 9:43 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:44 PM Peg has replied
 Message 12 by anglagard, posted 11-30-2008 10:44 PM Peg has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 11 of 573 (489930)
11-30-2008 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
11-30-2008 10:37 PM


quote:
marriage by definition relates to male/female relationships
50 years ago, marriage by definition didn't include whites marrying nonwhites in most states. Why didn't they just come up with something different?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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 Message 10 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 10:37 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 10:59 PM subbie has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 12 of 573 (489931)
11-30-2008 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
11-30-2008 10:37 PM


Fact over Fantasy
Peg writes:
marriage by definition relates to male/female relationships ... it did so in the bible, and it does so in every nation on earth today
Wrong
Same-sex marriage - Wikipedia
quote:
The Netherlands was the first country to legalize same-sex marriage in 2001. Same-sex marriages are also legal in Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, and Norway...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 10:37 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 11-30-2008 10:54 PM anglagard has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 573 (489935)
11-30-2008 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by anglagard
11-30-2008 10:44 PM


Re: Fact over Fantasy
same sex marriage has all happened in recent times
keep it in context please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by anglagard, posted 11-30-2008 10:44 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by anglagard, posted 11-30-2008 11:02 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 17 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:07 PM Peg has replied
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 14 of 573 (489937)
11-30-2008 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by subbie
11-30-2008 10:44 PM


the color of a persons skin wasnt an issue until the slave trade
your clutching at straws

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 10:44 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by subbie, posted 11-30-2008 11:04 PM Peg has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 15 of 573 (489938)
11-30-2008 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
11-30-2008 10:54 PM


Re: Fact over Fantasy
Peg writes:
keep it in context please.
Sorry, I have a thing about making factual statements that goes beyond strict adherence to the letter of the original post.
{ABE} In other words, if you don't want me calling you out because you stated something as fact that is obviously not true and that can easily be checked, then don't do it.
Simple as that.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
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