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Author Topic:   Can we really create self replicators?
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5054 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 16 of 17 (167143)
12-11-2004 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Denesha
12-10-2004 3:13 AM


Re: Life or not life
The opening head began with this ping/pong:
quote:
these molecules can evolve as well.
And if so, what does this do to the abiogenesis objections by YECs? Or am I just
.
What do we/you or I think this means. What did it mean for a "molecule" to evolve. If the standard is the history of biology, I would like to look at how Aggasiz came to understand fish BETTER ('evolve') by orgranizing them according to position in the geological rocks. He had expected that he was only going to find that he could compare fish better using the arrangement according to which rock it was in to hopefully have given a better "contrast". This positioning established, the icthyologist would be in a place of view, to provision again, a prior classification. This Ag was able to do with fossil fish but he maintained that this was an "intellectual coherence or comprehension" (I forget exactly which or what was his word) and NOT A MATERIAL PRINCIPLE. Louis had thought the Siberian Mammoth to have been FROM A PRIOR CREATION before he worked on the fossil fish.
Well the issue of if a "molecule" evolves not only crosses Kant's impossible but transendent heteronomy but it would be in the same thought on biochange BE a materiality that Ag denied existed a hundrend and 50 years ago.
What seems important to me is if we can say something about THIS without having to refer to actual data. I increasingly find it thinkable that we are doing this. But in the process I end up thinking more about the academic strech between, in this thread, what Kant named as physico-theology and ethico-theology. L.Aggasiz used the word "physio-philosophy" apparently combining what Kant had seperated. Whether this was due to influence by Oken on him, I dont know. He also thought women superior to men. I dont know if the difference of a couple of letters obviates my reading.
I still wrote this rather quickly but in the future you all can expect a better "look" to my posts as I just got a laptop and a scanner so... I hope to be able to send some of my own digrams in order to decrease the wordyness of my posts.
This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 12-11-2004 08:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Denesha, posted 12-10-2004 3:13 AM Denesha has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5054 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 17 of 17 (167159)
12-11-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Denesha
12-08-2004 4:41 AM


Re: Life or not life
This is what I was not told at Cornell. It is crucial for there may be a critical possibility if fish systematics when ordered by the rocks depends phenotypically on Georgi's difference of closed vs qusi-closed isolated biological objects. I finally found it in 1885 book by ECAgassiz. I wrote a college scholar thesis trying to explain missing information which I see was missing because 20th cetury REVERSED the motion discussed in 1900s. Will Provine should have told me this, admitted he did know and or protect me from being involutarily cofined for it was not my fault that history had turned this discussion around. I knew something like the following MUST exist in the literature but when I wrote my undergraduate thesis I could not find it.
This is a letter from Humbolt to Agassiz,
"I see by your letter that you cling to the idea of internal vital processes of the earth, that you regard the sucessive formations as different phases of life, the rocks as products of metamorphosis. I think this symbolical language should be employed with great reserve. I know that point of view of the old "Naturphilosophie;" I have examined it without prejudice, but nothing
seems to me more dissimilar than the vital action of the metamorphosis of a plant in order to form the calyx or the flower, and the successive formation of both of conglomerate. There is order, it is true, in the superposed beds, sometimes an alternation of the same substance, and interior cause, -sometimes even in successive development, starting from a central heat; but can the term life be applied to this kind of movement? Limestone does not generate sandstone. I do not kow that there exists what physiologists call a vital force, different from or opposed to , the physical forces which we recognize in all matter; I think the vital process is only a particular mode of action, of limitation of those physical forces; action,the nature of which we have not yet fully sounded. I believe there are nervous storms (electric) like those whichset fire to the atmosphere but that special action which we call organic, in which every part becomes cause and effect, seems to me distinct from the changes which our planet has undergone. I pause here, for I feel that I must annoy you, and I care for you too much to run that risk. Moreover, a superior man likeyourself..."
It is very hard to say if some"agent" is involved in this community of motion emprically observed or observable. Kant's post-judgement depends really on only one or many substaces without an ability to reason a particular NUMBER as I think Agassiz did with the four types of animals sytematically. This is how it is that I suspect that Gladyshev's law might challenge this enumeration taxogenically. I still see no reason to accept Gould's default UNTIL after it is clear what the community of this motion is theoretically bounding, which is why i think it possilble to find some of this work doable before all the data is in. Please try to realize that the change is orginally IN THE ROCKS , not the flesh. So ... if molecules "evolve" (say intermolecularly to supramolecularly) this must be IN HUMBOLdT's Sense not Provine's or any modern evos claim (excepting perhaps some here at EVC). Regardless I did not need to be ostracized for creationist strategy or religiously as showing me this quote would have been all I needed to read to stop me from complaining about my professors NOT doing their job evolutionarily. So the reason that there was NO DISCUSSION OF THE VITAL FORCE in 20th century biology was not in fact because there is none but in order to advance a view contrary to A's classification of FISH (irregardless of his writing on the CREATOR)! Creationism DOES a service to the student if only to show that THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED in the biological community not that creationism is actually challenging the comological choice of science or creationism. It may be but then the philosophy would need to be synthezied as I have analyzed the preDNA view on mutation here.
Found in Louis Agassiz His Life and Correspondence edited by Elizabeth Cary Agassiz In Two Volumes Vol. I.1886
The new view is that there IS NOT a contradiction or opposition here, but this is very hard to get across even with the regulars here at EVC. Much work needs to be done on the limits, mathematically, perhaps in a different organization of physical data where more than one real number system is set up. Guess what, I HAVE pushed science into the 21st! We dont have this yet but it is coming.Georgi's notions might combine Humboldt's "special action" through heirarchical thermodyanmics not respective to life only. Instead we keep talking about stem cells and life on mars. Oh how I wish otherwise. The point is that despite their differences Humboldt and Agassiz got along but Will Provine and I could not. Instead I have to recieve slander my parents accepted and assertions of rape in the same oscillation that might only have been Mt. St Helen's erupting. The cause was an academic inversion the innocent, children and classes of students are susecptible of. I ran into these problems becuase I knew the truth, may our world have the courage to realize that Gladyshev's treatment of me was the proper same as Humboldt and Agassiz but my lover, in order to maintain a claim of "rape" asserts that he must be a SPY. Oh, how silly the years wear on. What is so strange in all this biochemistry is that the mother of my children is only trying to inform my son about my mother's phony acceptance of Cornell slander but using clinical data she suggested I attempt to collect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Denesha, posted 12-08-2004 4:41 AM Denesha has not replied

  
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