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Author Topic:   The lies behind the Miller experiment
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 166 of 226 (161479)
11-19-2004 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by NosyNed
11-19-2004 10:59 AM


Count Me Out
Ned,
quote:
You might ask for a vote count on those conclusions.
I demand a recount!
regards,
Esteban "Green Party" Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by NosyNed, posted 11-19-2004 10:59 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
John A. Davison 
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 226 (161535)
11-19-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by NosyNed
11-19-2004 10:59 AM


Re: Conclusions
Nosy Ned
Call for a poll. I would be interested in the results. The more the merrier I say.

John Amerpohl Davison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by NosyNed, posted 11-19-2004 10:59 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by NosyNed, posted 11-19-2004 5:12 PM John A. Davison has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 168 of 226 (161547)
11-19-2004 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by coffee_addict
11-17-2004 1:57 PM


Re: Who lies about the Miller-Urey Experiment?
Permit me to remind everyone of the true purpose of this thread.
Admin writes:
JF writes:
I was talking about message 29 where you asked me if this was the book
Hi JESUS freak,
I'm not sure why we're experiencing difficulties here. It would be greatly appreciated if you would read the very recent messages from me and Charles more carefully and give us a meaningful response. You claim to have a text book that misrepresents the Miller/Urey experiment. Please provide the text of that mispresentation.
Let me try to be very clear by repeating this: Please provide the text of the misreprentation of the Miller/Urey experiment from your earth science text book.
Also, please provide the text of the other misrepresentations you have mentioned, such as the February, 2004, issue of Popular Science, or the March, 1998, issue of National Geographic.
If there's something about this request that you don't understand or that you need help with then please just let us know.
Still patiently, but getting close to running out of patience, waiting for anything that JF or his breathrens can come up with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by coffee_addict, posted 11-17-2004 1:57 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 169 of 226 (161554)
11-19-2004 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by John A. Davison
11-19-2004 3:26 PM


Polls
Perhaps people could record their opinions at the end of your thread about the PEH (or whatever).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 3:26 PM John A. Davison has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by AdminAsgara, posted 11-19-2004 6:25 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 170 of 226 (161579)
11-19-2004 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by NosyNed
11-19-2004 5:12 PM


Re: Polls
I will work on setting up an actual polling place. Can others give me suggested wording for the question and answers?

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by NosyNed, posted 11-19-2004 5:12 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 171 of 226 (162043)
11-21-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by RAZD
11-15-2004 7:43 PM


Re: An explanation of evolution
hmmm ...
old reply to JesusFreak:
http://EvC Forum: Information
no answer, = no refutation ...
(sigh)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
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JESUS freak
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 226 (162298)
11-22-2004 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jar
11-18-2004 10:21 AM


The point is that they don't mention that the origional atmosphere was wrong in my text book. I should have a quote from it availible the thursday after this one. They did mention that the atmosphere was wrong almost in entirerty, as Miller used a hydro gen rich atmosphere, in the issue of Pop Sci that I quoted, but just mention that methane may not have existed in earth's early atmosphere. no lie there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 10:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by CK, posted 11-22-2004 9:52 AM JESUS freak has not replied
 Message 174 by jar, posted 11-22-2004 10:02 AM JESUS freak has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 173 of 226 (162301)
11-22-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 9:44 AM


But you still don't seem to be proving your original point - that the experiment was used to provide evidence for evolution.
are you EVER going to provide any evidence for this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 9:44 AM JESUS freak has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 174 of 226 (162305)
11-22-2004 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 9:44 AM


JF
The point is that they don't mention that the origional atmosphere was wrong in my text book.
But that really doesn't matter, does it.
First, it WAS what some thought the atmosphere might be like at the time the experiment was done. So even if it was incorrect, it was not dishonest. It was a valid, successful experiment.
Second, the beginnings of life are not part of the Theory of Evolution. The TOE simply is our best theory of what happened after life began and is continuing today. It too may well be wrong, that's the way science works. And if a better explaination comes along, that will not make the TOE a lie, simply wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 9:44 AM JESUS freak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 1:54 PM jar has replied

  
JESUS freak
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 226 (162364)
11-22-2004 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by jar
11-22-2004 10:02 AM


So what if it was thought to be the right atmosphere then? That was fine then, but now, even though we arn't sure exactly what earth's early atmosphere consisted of, we are almost positive that it was not at all like the miller-urey experiment
Secondly, the miller experiment does have a lot to do with evoloution. Without a life form to multiply get through many generations get better suited for for his enviroment, evoloution is impossible. Without divine intervention, 0 multiplied by 5 billion years still =0

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by jar, posted 11-22-2004 10:02 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 11-22-2004 2:08 PM JESUS freak has not replied
 Message 178 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-22-2004 2:23 PM JESUS freak has not replied
 Message 181 by Loudmouth, posted 11-22-2004 5:17 PM JESUS freak has not replied

  
JESUS freak
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 226 (162368)
11-22-2004 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
11-18-2004 2:18 PM


Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.
A lot of material denied? Execpt for the tiny library, I get more material here than I did in public school, where I went for 9 years before coming here. If I wasn't able to resist them filling my brain with something, I would have been brainwashed by the pulic scools years before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 2:18 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by CK, posted 11-22-2004 4:49 PM JESUS freak has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 177 of 226 (162371)
11-22-2004 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 1:54 PM


So what if it was thought to be the right atmosphere then? That was fine then, but now, even though we arn't sure exactly what earth's early atmosphere consisted of, we are almost positive that it was not at all like the miller-urey experiment
Let's look at what you've said. If the conditions that they used were correct, to the best of their knowledge at the time, then the experiment was a success and not a lie. Surely even you must admit that?
Secondly, the miller experiment does have a lot to do with evoloution. Without a life form to multiply get through many generations get better suited for for his enviroment, evoloution is impossible. Without divine intervention, 0 multiplied by 5 billion years still =0
Why? The Theory of Evolution says nothing and has nothing to do with how life started. Even if the first life was through divine intervention, the TOE is still the best explaination of what happened since then.
Also, you sem to still hold the notion that evolution has to do with things getting better. That's simply wrong. Things change. There is no purpose to the change, no direction, no better. If the random change happens to help the critters survive to reproduce, then it's successful. But it is not directed, not better or worse. It is the critter lives and has children or doesn't.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 1:54 PM JESUS freak has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 178 of 226 (162373)
11-22-2004 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 1:54 PM


Life originated somehow
THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION DOES NOT CARE HOW LIFE ORIGINATED.
We can grant that God was behind the origin of life. His methodology may or may not have had anything to do with what was discover in the Miller/Urey experiment, or any subsequent simular experiments.
TWO SEPERATE STEPS:
1) Life somehow originated.
2) Life somehow evolved.
The fact and theory of the second does not depend on the hows of the first.
That is why the hypothesies/theories of lifes origins are a seperate issue relative to the hypothesies/theories of evolution.
So whether the Miller/Urey experiment was valid or not is a moot point, in the context of the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution does not care.
Moose
This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 11-22-2004 02:25 PM

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 1:54 PM JESUS freak has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 179 of 226 (162412)
11-22-2004 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by JESUS freak
11-22-2004 2:05 PM


Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.
quote:
A lot of material denied? Execpt for the tiny library, I get more material here than I did in public school, where I went for 9 years before coming here. If I wasn't able to resist them filling my brain with something, I would have been brainwashed by the pulic scools years before.
I can see that the brainwashing at the pulic scools never tooken.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by JESUS freak, posted 11-22-2004 2:05 PM JESUS freak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by JESUS freak, posted 11-23-2004 2:11 PM CK has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 180 of 226 (162414)
11-22-2004 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by jar
11-22-2004 2:08 PM


Are we back to "better/worse"? I was under the impression that we had done that early in the thread?
Are we chasing our tails?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 11-22-2004 2:08 PM jar has not replied

  
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