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Author Topic:   The lies behind the Miller experiment
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 151 of 226 (161232)
11-18-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by jar
11-18-2004 3:12 PM


Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.
jar writes:
It is interesting because they do not post their curiculum. They do post their core beliefs though.
Not true.
Here is their high school curriculum. Go here for other things about their courses.
Notice that they actually teach creation in their science classes.

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 3:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 11-18-2004 6:40 PM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 153 by CK, posted 11-18-2004 6:49 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 152 of 226 (161235)
11-18-2004 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 6:33 PM


Mea Culpa
Thank you. I apologize. I had not found that on their site. But it does make my point that JF is somewhat handicapped by limitations in the information available.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 6:33 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 153 of 226 (161237)
11-18-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by coffee_addict
11-18-2004 6:33 PM


Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.
Thanks for that Lam - the set text for their earth sciences courses
Text: Earth Science: Geology, the Environment, and the Universe. Hess, Francess. (Glencoe/McGraw Hill; 2002).
A book that does not link evolution with this experiment.
JF - any luck finding a quote that supports your position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by coffee_addict, posted 11-18-2004 6:33 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 154 of 226 (161239)
11-18-2004 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Lithodid-Man
11-18-2004 6:32 PM


Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.
Right! The thing is, I have even caught myself doing that sometimes. You don't think before you speak and you are so sure of something that you support what you say with something that sounds like an analogy in your head but comes out sounding like a total lie. Then instead of admitting to it you just color it and massage it until it gets forgotten.
What I think we need to do is give people who have obviously caught in this situation way out by making it seem less confrontational to admit that you were mistaken. Comments like, "Put up or shut up", "show me the money or retract your claim" are very confrontational and probably do nothing to actually convince the person that this is a safe place to be wrong every once in awhile.
Not to say that someone wouldn't still just dodge and juke their way out of the hole they dug. It just feels extreme sometimes the way everyone plays "pile on the creo" when they are obviously trying to shy away from a mistake. It seems that very calm and constructive coaxing by guys like Percy are often overshadowed by a whole bunch of people all demanding the same thing just less....eloquently.
Of course much of this may also be in my imagination as it is difficult sometimes to get the intended tone of a post. I have mostly just been a lurker. It may very well be that we already have environment that is welcoming to admission of error here and that I am seeing it wrong. Maybe others have an opinion?

-Nasser

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Lithodid-Man, posted 11-18-2004 6:32 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 155 of 226 (161244)
11-18-2004 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Jazzns
11-18-2004 6:56 PM


Update the forum Guidelinse?
I think Jazzin has braught up an excelent point!
I think this may even be a point of mederation. People who are confrontational to the point of antagonizim, should be reprimanded. I see it alot in those threads that turn into a creo bash fest.
Lot's of "put up or shut up", or Rhain's ever popluar "Liar".
Heck, I have even done it at times. I think this may be a reason why alot of the creos feel the way they do about the evos. Maybe we should chainge the guidelines to bar this kind of behavior, and make the forum a place where it's ok to be wrong?
What do you think?
Im going to double post this into Suggestions and ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2004 6:56 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 6:51 AM Yaro has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 156 of 226 (161288)
11-18-2004 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Jazzns
11-18-2004 6:56 PM


Re: Fear of being caught in a lie.
I think everyone has done this to some extent. Where it becomes embarrassingly apparent is when you make the assumption that the person you are speaking to is as confused as you are. I had a relative approach me one with something like (heavily paraphrased but basically accurate), "I started reading Darwin's Origin so that I could learn about evolution. I saw on the first page he said that the human eye proves evolution wrong and the only way anyone would believe evolution is through blind faith". For whatever reason they seemed to believe that Origin is such an obscure work that I probably never read it. Or they believed that their pastor was such an honest man that his claim to have read it must be true. Either way, wrong story to convince the wrong guy.
I admit that my knee-jerk reaction to the above is to yell "liar!!!". I mean, the person would seem to saying "I think you are so stupid that you will believe this ridiculous untrue statement I am about to make." But, I recognize the wisdom in Jazzns' and Yaro's suggested approach. Maybe we should start by gently pointing out that this or that misconception is widely held but has been answered here and here. Let them know delicately that they have been deceived and that we will be happy to discuss it if they are interested in learning more. If they persist, and don't offer evidence (when possible), after a certain amount of time then gloves off?
As I mentioned earlier in my "life is not a Chick tract" rant, I think that the creationist leadership are convincing their followers that not only is evolution incorrect but that with only a few assertions you can destroy even the staunchest evolutionist argument. All it takes is watching a Hovind video or 'debate'. He repeatedly claims that this or that scientist debated him, admitted that evolution was without evidence, then claimed that they have to believe in evolution or admit they are sinners. I know that these events didn't occur, but the message to his flock is the entire evolutionary argument is based on a handful of disproven evidences and that any one of the audience members can point these out and convert an evolutionist. So maybe if they first are gently informed that this is not the case they will research enough to present legitimate arguments for their case.

"Statistics are like a bikini. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital." Aaron Levenstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Jazzns, posted 11-18-2004 6:56 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 157 of 226 (161415)
11-19-2004 6:18 AM


Back to the original topic...
I was researching a proposed topic and ran acroos this, totally on topic and worthy of discussion.
Chick.com: Big Daddy?
Oops, I forgot about naked links. This is a discussion of abiogenesis that while incorrect is at least well written and somewhat well-reasoned. JF- may spawn some good arguments for you? Some points to discuss that may get you (and this topic) out of boot camp? I totally disagree with you but also want you to participate in this forum.
This message has been edited by Lithodid-Man, 11-19-2004 06:30 AM

  
John A. Davison 
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 226 (161425)
11-19-2004 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Yaro
11-18-2004 7:24 PM


Re: Update the forum Guidelinse?
Yaro
I love your terminology, Creos and Evos. The reason they hate each others insides is because they are both wrong and secretly know it but pride prevents them from admitting it. The Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis is the answer. Trust me.

John Amerpohl Davison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Yaro, posted 11-18-2004 7:24 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Yaro, posted 11-19-2004 8:46 AM John A. Davison has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 159 of 226 (161442)
11-19-2004 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by John A. Davison
11-19-2004 6:51 AM


Re: Update the forum Guidelinse?
?
Whats wrong with my terminology? I just used whats popular on the forum. I think the term evolutionist is silly actually. It's not like evolution is some sort of essoteric sect or something, it happens to be widely accepted amongst just about everyone.
I don't think 'evos' and 'creos' are both wrong. I think evolution is a scientific fact (a theory supported by a preponderance of evidence) whereas creation, at least the biblical 6 day kind, has been ruled out entirely.
'The Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis' - I don't know what this is. I know there was a thread about it a while ago, but it didn't hold my interest. Maybe I will look at it again to enlighten myself on your statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 6:51 AM John A. Davison has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Mammuthus, posted 11-19-2004 9:24 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 165 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 11:20 AM Yaro has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 160 of 226 (161447)
11-19-2004 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Yaro
11-19-2004 8:46 AM


Re: Update the forum Guidelinse?
quote:
'The Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis' - I don't know what this is
I'll save you the trouble of reading through a long thread of flaming. It is the idea that all biodiversity is explained by the release of suppression of existing sequences in the "genome" from bacteria to humans. No support for it is supplied other than diatribes against Darwin and "Darwinists" and a long list of quotes from a group of dead mostly 19th century naturalists who opposed evolution (though the quotes are cherry picked as it does not reflect all of their views on evolution). It is falsified by genetics, genomics and molecular biology not to mention just about every other discipline of biological science. But hey, let's not get stuck in the details

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 10:55 AM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 164 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 11:17 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
John A. Davison 
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 226 (161465)
11-19-2004 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Mammuthus
11-19-2004 9:24 AM


Re: Update the forum Guidelinse?
I see that Mammuth has to poison the intellectual well in advance. He did the same thing when I introduced the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis some time ago. There is only one reason for such action. It is summarized in a single word. Fear. I am sure that every member of this forum is quite able to draw their own conclusions. I am delighted with his action as it proves my point beyond any doubt. Thank you Mammuth.

John Amerpohl Davison

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 Message 160 by Mammuthus, posted 11-19-2004 9:24 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by NosyNed, posted 11-19-2004 10:59 AM John A. Davison has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 162 of 226 (161467)
11-19-2004 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by John A. Davison
11-19-2004 10:55 AM


Conclusions
I am sure that every member of this forum is quite able to draw their own conclusions.
You might ask for a vote count on those conclusions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 10:55 AM John A. Davison has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 11:05 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 166 by MrHambre, posted 11-19-2004 11:27 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 167 by John A. Davison, posted 11-19-2004 3:26 PM NosyNed has replied

  
John A. Davison 
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 226 (161470)
11-19-2004 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by NosyNed
11-19-2004 10:59 AM


Re: Conclusions
If I were so naive as to believe that the truth was determined by majority vote, I would. A lifetime of experience has taught me otherwise.
"When all think alike no one thinks very much"
Walter Lippmann

John Amerpohl Davison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by NosyNed, posted 11-19-2004 10:59 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
John A. Davison 
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 226 (161474)
11-19-2004 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Mammuthus
11-19-2004 9:24 AM


Re: Update the forum Guidelinse?
Mammuth
Mammuth
Your post # 160 is utter nonsense. Every one of my sources was a convinced evolutionist. To indicate otherwise is a flagrant and deliberate lie. You must be even more terrified of the truth than I have imagined. Darwinian mysticism is not a synonym for evolution. Allelic mutation and Natural Selection, the very cornerstones of Darwinian gradualism, never had anything to do with the emergence of new life forms. To continue to insist that they ever did or now do is the epitome of self-denial. Thank you again Mammuth. You are performing beautifully. Keep it up. It is music to my ancient ears.

John Amerpohl Davison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Mammuthus, posted 11-19-2004 9:24 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
John A. Davison 
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 226 (161476)
11-19-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Yaro
11-19-2004 8:46 AM


Re: Update the forum Guidelinse?
Yaro
I like your terminology. It defines the problem perfectly. Please ignore the revealing warnings by Mammuth. Read and draw your own conclusions.

John Amerpohl Davison

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Yaro, posted 11-19-2004 8:46 AM Yaro has not replied

  
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