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Author Topic:   Evolution has been Disproven
Siguiendo la verdad
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 301 (215852)
06-10-2005 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Jazzns
05-06-2005 11:24 AM


Faith without evidance
Jazzns said:
When you accept something by faith you do so in the absence of evidence. I believe in God without any evidence. In fact, the Bible specifically states that you are more blessed if you have faith in God without any evidence. It is expressly telling you it is better to believe without proof. John 20:29
I believe each one of these statements to be incorrect, but I will deal specifically with the last, which references John 20:29 by using words of someone far more knowledgeable of this matter than I:
(v. 29): "Thomas because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed, and it is well thou art brought to it at last upon any terms; but blessed are those that have not seen, and yet have believed.’’ Here, (1.) Christ owns Thomas a believer. Sound and sincere believers, though they be slow and weak, shall be graciously accepted of the Lord Jesus. Those who have long stood it out, if at last they yield, shall find him ready to forgive. No sooner did Thomas consent to Christ than Christ gives him the comfort of it, and lets him know that he believes. (2.) He upbraids him with his former incredulity. He might well be ashamed to think, [1.] That he had been so backward to believe, and came so slowly to his own comforts. Those that in sincerity have closed with Christ see a great deal of reason to lament that they did not do it sooner. [2.] That it was not without much ado that he was brought to believe at last: "If thou hadst not seen me alive, thou wouldst not have believed;’’ but if no evidence must be admitted but that of our own senses, and we must believe nothing but what we ourselves are eye-witnesses of, farewell all commerce and conversation. If this must be the only method of proof, how must the world be converted to the faith of Christ? He is therefore justly blamed for laying so much stress upon this. (3.) He commends the faith of those who believe upon easier terms. Thomas, as a believer, was truly blessed; but rather blessed are those that have not seen. It is not meant of not seeing the objects of faith (for these are invisible, Heb. 11:1; 2 Co. 4:18), but the motives of faithChrist’s miracles, and especially his resurrection; blessed are those that see not these, and yet believe in Christ. This may look, either backward, upon the Old-Testament saints, who had not seen the things which they saw, and yet believed the promise made unto the father, and lived by that faith; or forward, upon those who should afterwards believe, the Gentiles, who had never seen Christ in the flesh, as the Jews had. This faith is more laudable and praise-worthy than theirs who saw and believed; for, [1.] It evidences a better temper of mind in those that do believe. Not to see and yet to believe argues greater industry in searching after truth, and greater ingenuousness of mind in embracing it. He that believes upon that sight has his resistance conquered by a sort of violence; but he that believes without it, like the Bereans, is more noble. [2.] It is a greater instance of the power of divine grace. The less sensible the evidence is the more does the work of faith appear to be the Lord’s doing. Peter is blessed in his faith, because flesh and blood have not revealed it to him, Mt. 16:17. Flesh and blood contribute more to their faith that see and believe, than to theirs who see not and yet believe. Dr. Lightfoot quotes a saying of one of the rabbin, "That one proselyte is more acceptable to God than all the thousands of Israel that stood before mount Sinai; for they saw and received the law, but a proselyte sees not, and yet receives it.’’
In conclusion: The bible clearly speaks to those who would reduce all proof, fact, or truth to that which we can only surmize through one of our senses, by saying that life and belief are based on far more than our senses allow us to know. Which is, I think, at the bottom of so much of the debate between evolutionists and creationists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Jazzns, posted 05-06-2005 11:24 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Jazzns, posted 06-13-2005 1:58 PM Siguiendo la verdad has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 228 of 301 (216520)
06-13-2005 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Jazzns
05-06-2005 11:24 AM


Re: *sigh*
When you accept something by faith you do so in the absence of evidence. I believe in God without any evidence. In fact, the Bible specifically states that you are more blessed if you have faith in God without any evidence.
This is a misreading of the text, imo. Jesus, for example, tells His followers to share their testimony, their evidence in their lives of their experience of Jesus Christ, and that through these means, people can believe.
To say you should believe without any evidence at all is wrong.
It's true that one should believe without physically seeing the Resurrection of Jesus, but there's something deeper going on here that a lot of people miss. God created and maintains the universe through faith. His faith precedes and causes to be the existence of all things. That's what the Bible teaches.
So God requires for some reason that mankind learn to do a little of the same, to believe first and create out of that faith.
The whole thing is related to spiritual mechanisms. One develops faith by "hearing it" on the inside first. It's more like an intuition than an objective measurement. And that's because the place where people connect with God is through their spirit, and believing by just seeing what you beleive on the outside does not necessarily teach one how to hear and believe God from the inside out, which is how it has to be.
According to Jesus, God is a Spirit, and requires that we worship Him in spirit and truth, and we cannot do that without developing some spirituality, and without intuitive faith and reason, one has a very weak spirituality or maybe not much at all.
Objective reasoning has it's place in the world, but is indeed somewhat over-rated. Much of how we actually live is of necessity first governed by subjectivity, and indeed what we call objectivity is just a subset of out subjective experience, an area of subjective experience we have learned to isolate and compartmentalize in order to produce great gains in this world, and maybe even the one to come.
But it's illusory to think of subjectivity and objectivity as dichotomy or opposites. Objectivity is just a subset of subjectivity, which is the reality of our human experience.
Take the idea of falling in love and marrying. Falling in love is not objective, for the most part. Nor is even choosing a mate, but both of these things can and should be tempered by objective analysis. You need to be careful and make sure you marry the right one, and objective reason is very helpful, and positive subset of the necessarily subjective process involved with choosing the right person and making that commitment.
The fallacy of scientific basis for belief is simple. Science is way too primitive. The technology is so primitive that even scientists themselves make claims such as testing for whether God did something is way out of the reach of science, maybe by definition.
As such, one should be highly suspicious of basing any beliefs, other than how to do something in a highly tailored technical situation on science.
As far as evolution, it by definition is going to be riddled with errors because evolutionists a priori exclude any possibilities of God being involved with the process, and exclude any reasonable attempts to detect God's handiwork or methods as off the table.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Jazzns, posted 05-06-2005 11:24 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2005 8:35 AM randman has replied
 Message 232 by Jazzns, posted 06-13-2005 1:54 PM randman has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 229 of 301 (216562)
06-13-2005 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by randman
06-13-2005 2:51 AM


God created and maintains the universe through faith.
Faith in what?
Seriously, did this make any sense to you when you wrote it? What could God possibly have faith in that he wouldn't already just know? It's impossible for God to have faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 2:51 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 231 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 11:47 AM crashfrog has replied
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 301 (216566)
06-13-2005 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by crashfrog
06-13-2005 8:35 AM


quote:
God created and maintains the universe through faith.
Faith in what?
Seriously, did this make any sense to you when you wrote it? What could God possibly have faith in that he wouldn't already just know? It's impossible for God to have faith.
OT comment, crazyfrog crashfrog, but that comment really hit the spot!
This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 06-13-2005 08:47 AM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 231 of 301 (216621)
06-13-2005 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by crashfrog
06-13-2005 8:35 AM


God has faith in Himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2005 8:35 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2005 9:42 PM randman has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 232 of 301 (216652)
06-13-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by randman
06-13-2005 2:51 AM


Re: *sigh*
Jesus is specifically talking about objective evidence. He says that it is better if you believe without ever experience physical proof like the disciples had yet still were in disbelief:
Jesus in John 20:29 writes:
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
There is no way to misinterpret that statement. Throughout the new testament it focus is on faith in Christ; not proving that Christ was real.
Maybe you could show your bravery and go back and respond to the rest of the post which had substance worth debating rather than focusing on contradicting this rather blatant and obvious tennent of Christianity.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 2:51 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 233 of 301 (216654)
06-13-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Siguiendo la verdad
06-10-2005 10:43 AM


Re: Faith without evidance
Thanks but I like to let the Bible speak for itself. That verse it pretty clear that:
1. Jesus is talking about physical (i.e. objective) evidence.
2. Jesus says that you are blessed, moreso than his audience, if you believe in him without the need of physical (i.e. objective evidence)
To take it any other way is to disregard a position of Biblical literalism.
{ABE}
I offer the same challenge to you as I did randman. Go back and respond to the substance of that post for which this thread is on topic.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-13-2005 11:59 AM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Siguiendo la verdad, posted 06-10-2005 10:43 AM Siguiendo la verdad has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 234 of 301 (216663)
06-13-2005 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Jazzns
06-13-2005 1:54 PM


Re: *sigh*
Sure, "objective" evidence in the sense of empirical proof, but that's not what you wrote. You wrote beleiving without evidence, and did not qualify that. Additionally, testimony is accepted in a court of law as evidence.
So what he was talking about was simply what He said, believing without seeing. That does not mean there is no evidence involved in the process of believing, but just not seeing Him physically for themselves.
Jesus puts no qualifications really on the type of evidence, except seeing Him for oneself, that is more blessed. In other words, he upbraids doubting unless you have an equal experience of seeing and touching the Risen Jesus in the flesh.
But considering the objective evidence is fine for someone to do.
This message has been edited by randman, 06-13-2005 02:35 PM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 235 of 301 (216972)
06-14-2005 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by randman
06-13-2005 11:47 AM


God has faith in Himself.
You're just repeating yourself. How can God have faith in himself? The need for faith comes from imperfect knowledge of self. God's perfect knowledge removes the need for faith because there's no doubt of his success.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by randman, posted 06-13-2005 11:47 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 236 of 301 (216996)
06-14-2005 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by crashfrog
06-14-2005 9:42 PM


The need for faith comes from imperfect knowledge of self.
So you say, but that's far from proven. I think faith comes from knowledge more than ignorance. Faith in a lot of ways is a perspective. Biblical faith is God's perspective. So it increases with knowledge, not decreases.
God with perfect knowledge would have perfect faith.
This message has been edited by randman, 06-14-2005 11:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 237 of 301 (217017)
06-15-2005 1:29 AM


Totally off topic
I haven't read back to figure out how things got so far off topic. But one more post in this line and this gets closed for a bit.

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 238 of 301 (217025)
06-15-2005 1:51 AM


Replay of message 1 - This was originally an "abiogenesis" type topic
This topic probably should have been shut down after after about 20-30 messages. Its essential theme was one of abiogenesis vs. evolution. Thus the "Evolution has been Disproven" title in the "Origin of Life" forum.
Message 1 in its entirety:
Hi. Evolution has been disproven for over 100 years, and here's why:
1. Evolution requires that life comes from non-life. The first living cell is supposed to have come from non-living organic material in the oceans.
2. Life coming from non-life is called spontaneous generation. The dictionary confirms this: "Supposed production of living from non-living matter as inferred from appearance of life (due in fact to bacteria etc.) in some infusions..." [Oxford Concise Dictionary]
3. Louis Pasteur disproved spontaneous generation back in the 19th century when he placed a sterilised beaker with a straight entry tube alongside one with a crooked tube. Bacteria collected in the straight-tubed beaker but not in the crooked-tubed one, where instead they lodged in the bends of the pipe. He concluded that life only comes from life. This is now known as the law of biogenesis.
4. Since evolution requires life from non-life (spontaneous generation or abiogenesis), and Louis Pasteur disproved this, evolution has been rendered impossible on account of life not being able to generate from non-life.
Adminnemooseus

THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 301 (221353)
07-02-2005 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by crashfrog
06-13-2005 8:35 AM


Faith in what?
That is totally incorrect. The Bible calls God the "author of our faith"...so how can He not have faith? In Mark 11 Jesus states "Godlike faith". The issue is that you don't seem to understand what faith is.
You said faith in what? Huh?
In Hebrews the writer states that "Faith is the 'substance' of things hoped for. Faith, according to Jesus, healed the sick, raised the dead,...etc.
In Mark 11 Jesus states , " If you SAY to this mountain...and BELIEVE...it shall happen." Faith is an authoritative belief.
Genesis says that God did exactly what Jesus told us to do. "...SAY to this mountain...and BELIEVE...it shall happen." .....God SAID "let there be light, and there was light"
So yes God DEFINITELY has FAITH. We were created in His image and likeness. So do the math.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by crashfrog, posted 06-13-2005 8:35 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 240 of 301 (221354)
07-02-2005 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by THEONE
07-02-2005 2:27 PM


Re: Faith in what?
What Math? I fail to see any math.
Could you show your working again?

This message is a reply to:
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THEONE 
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 301 (221355)
07-02-2005 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by AdminNosy
06-15-2005 1:29 AM


Re: Totally off topic
Administrator, I'm a new member but I have been reading the evc forum and I'm wondering why is it that many of the threads that seem to disprove the evolutionist belief tend to be closed and unpostable? Is this a website where there is bias? Just wondering because I notice that some discussions are actually being argued between members and some administrators about the topics at hand. I notice some warnings by some administrators...but it always seems to be on one side?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 251 by coffee_addict, posted 09-30-2005 1:42 AM THEONE has not replied
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