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Author Topic:   Evolution in the VERY beginning
david12
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 58 (247115)
09-28-2005 10:33 PM


The study of evolution is focussed so much on going from the bacteria to the human being. A question, that I find unable to answer, is how did those first components arrive? I am not very educated in the mixture of gases and materials to form different substances under energy or whatever it is. I just want to know how an evolutionist can explain the beginning. How would there just "be" something if it was not made? If possible(which seems unlikely on this forum) i would like strict answers to the question rather than tangents. Thanks.
This message has been edited by david12, 09-28-2005 10:58 PM

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 58 (247120)
09-28-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by david12
09-28-2005 10:33 PM


Hi David
I'd like to promote this topic, it is much shorter and better focused then your first attempt at a new thread.
I'm not sure where to put this though, evolution has nothing to do with abiogenesis, and they are two different fora here.
If you want to discuss abiogenesis please reply with an edited post and I will move it to the Origins of Life forum.
If you want to discuss early evolution, bear in mind that origins of life would be off topic in the evo forum. If you could make it more clear where you are going with this, I will promote it.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by david12, posted 09-28-2005 10:33 PM david12 has replied

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david12
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 58 (247127)
09-28-2005 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
09-28-2005 10:47 PM


if you could post it under abiogenisis then, i edited it as well

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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 4 of 58 (247131)
09-28-2005 11:08 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 58 (247132)
09-28-2005 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by david12
09-28-2005 10:33 PM


I just want to know how an evolutionist can explain the beginning.
Why ask biologists for answers to problems in chemistry and physics?
At any rate, your question isn't very clear. What "components" are you referring to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by david12, posted 09-28-2005 10:33 PM david12 has replied

Replies to this message:
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david12
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 58 (247133)
09-28-2005 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
09-28-2005 11:09 PM


Im asking for someone to explain to me how evolution could start. So lets just say hypothetically that evolution is true, how did it start? how did the first bacterias get there? If they were somehow formed by certain matter, how did that matter get there? At some point in time if you go back far enough there had to be a creation. Im using general terms (certain matter, first bacterias) because I am not well versed in scientific reactions and early life forms. Because as far as I know, it is not possible for something, to come out of NOTHING, if it was not created

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 58 (247134)
09-28-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by david12
09-28-2005 11:17 PM


Im asking for someone to explain to me how evolution could start.
It starts once you have a population of organisms that undergo decent with modification.
How does that happen? Ask a chemist. Abiogenesis is a problem of chemistry, not biology.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 8 of 58 (247135)
09-28-2005 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by david12
09-28-2005 10:33 PM


Explaining abiogenesis is not strictly an evolution question.
The two most common hypotheses appear to be:
  • Spontaneous generation. The chemical reactions in the early earth happened to created suitable organic material. Whether the first proto life would have required DNA or RNA is not certain. Perhaps it just started with a mix of proteins.
  • Panspermia. The earth was seeded from organic material that happens to be floating around in outer space.
There really isn't much evidence to go on. If space explorations reveal other earth-like planets (in other star systems), then whether there is life on those planets might give us information on how life started here.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 9 of 58 (247137)
09-28-2005 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by david12
09-28-2005 11:17 PM


origins of life
As you might find in lots of other places here at EvC -- the utterly correct answer to how near-enough-to-"living" things arose is : "I dunno".
However, we have a lot of clues as to how simple replicators could possibly arise and some hints of how cell-like structures might form.
Because as far as I know, it is not possible for something, to come out of NOTHING, if it was not created
Why on earth would you pick "NOTHING" as a starting point?
It is obvious that one can construct scenarios where something like "living" things could arise on their own on an early Earth.
The challenge is to nail down one or a few detailed pathways. There are good hints but nothing firm enough yet. Picking a specific path and saying "That's it!" is probably going to remain impossible. We are 4 billion years from the event and it involved some comparitively simple chemistry.
If you are talking about the origin of matter and the Earth. That is, again, a separate topic. This forum is about life arising on a suitable planet not the formation of stars and planets.
If you don't like the idea of something from "nothing" then you can decide God made whatever came before the big bang. Just be ready to toss your idea out if the cosmologists resolve that one too. You can see lots of discussion on the big bang in the appropriate forum. -- This ain't it!
If you could prove that something can't come from nothing without a creator and you could prove that there was 'nothing' as a starting point you would make absolutely no difference to any discussion of evolution
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 09-28-2005 11:33 PM

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david12
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 58 (247147)
09-28-2005 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NosyNed
09-28-2005 11:29 PM


Re: origins of life
well, i pretty much heard what I thought I would hear. But as far as the comment why would you choose nothing as the starting point... When counting, you start at 0. When building anything you start with nothing but an idea. Before birth you were nothing. The very word start is beginning, your progress is nothing, and your are starting. If you can find the starting point of life besides nothing, how did you come up with it? This seems more rational than just saying, "Lets start with an earth. And some stars. And wait, dont forget the bacteria."

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 11 of 58 (247148)
09-28-2005 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by david12
09-28-2005 11:51 PM


Re: origins of life
You could start by cleaning up your grammar and spelling. Normally, I don't mind simple honest mistakes, but yours seem to be persistent and consistent.

This message is a reply to:
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david12
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 58 (247150)
09-29-2005 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by coffee_addict
09-28-2005 11:54 PM


Re: origins of life
thank you Jacen, you have greatly influenced the debate.
This message has been edited by david12, 09-29-2005 12:06 AM

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david12
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 58 (247151)
09-29-2005 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by coffee_addict
09-28-2005 11:54 PM


Re: origins of life
h
This message has been edited by david12, 09-29-2005 12:15 AM

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 14 of 58 (247154)
09-29-2005 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by david12
09-28-2005 11:51 PM


starting points
The topic here is "evolution in the VERY beginning". If you go back to "nothing" you are before the beginning of evolution; way before!
It isn't conducive to coherent discussion to be unable to focus on one area at a time. It is very useful to find the right boundaries of inquiry. If you have trouble with this concept you will have a heck of a time getting your head wrapped around anything of any complexity.
Evolution happens to have very easy boundaries. It only discusses 'living' things. It isn't intended to discuss anything else.
(Note: 'living' is a bit tricky mind you. No one has defined that very well as far as I know. It's a bit of a "I'll know it when I see it." thing. Of course, this isn't totally true since there are differences of opinion when some of the "greyer" areas are encountered.)
If you can find the starting point of life besides nothing, how did you come up with it?
Obviously no one expects life to arise from nothing. I can't figure out what you are on about here. It is however, clear and agreed to by all that life arose from something other than nothing.
Once there was an earth without life. I and the Bible both agree on that. Then at a later time there was life on earth. We both agree on that. The details are under some minor dispute.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 09-29-2005 12:25 AM

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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 58 (247155)
09-29-2005 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by david12
09-29-2005 12:02 AM


Re: origins of life
You're welcome. I try.

This message is a reply to:
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