jar - On Christianity

Yes, without all those birth defects and deseases and accidents, in which innocents suffer and die, how on earth could we ever manage a smile?Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

Faith: Ecclesiastes is a great book. One of my favorites, too.But it is demonstrably not a 'quintessentially Christian writing.' It is a quintessentially Jewish writing. Its author was not a Christian. Its author had never heard of Christianity.The book was accepted as part of the Hebrew canon centuries before that came to be incorporated into the canons of Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Christian churches.Yeshua was not a Christian, either. Logically speaking, people who truly intend to be 'like Christ' should convert to Judaism.

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Also, controversial down through the years.

Fine, but how about all those births that are normal? If it wasn't for sorrow then joy would be just like gravity. All we've ever known is positive gravity. It is just what is and we never think about it one way or the other. If there was no sorrow we would have no pleasure in joy. It would be just like gravity; just the way things are.In addition as Christians we believe that this life is just a precursor to the next life. Why don't you wait 'till you get there before you criticize things too much? Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

robinrohan writes: You are talking about Buddhism with your mention of Nirvana. But your demand that Buddhism give you 'clear, distinct and definite doctrines' and an explanation of 'wickedness' is asking for a Western product from the outset.Eastern ideas seem vague to you at the moment because, most likely, you lack a sufficient vocabulary to render them. It's like using the language of computer science to describe astronomy. Square pegs and round holes and all that. The concepts of anything remain elusive to us if we have to translate them into inadequate and biased terms. This is very interesting. Before you insisted on 'clear, distinct and definite doctrines.' Now you say you like ambiguity.Nihilism is convincing to you because it offers 'uncertainty' and 'no very cogent explanation.' You find it credible because it does not try to explain everything. The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.But within the mysteries of nihilism you still have room for precision and clarity, don't you? You have science.How do you understand these two poles: your desire for clarity and the desire for mystery? Do you see them as something you must choose between? As something you can synthesize, perhaps as you are doing with science and nihilism? What do you think?

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ArcherAll species are transitional.

Anybody remember Al Franken's routines about the "Me" decade on SNL?
("How does that effect me - Al Franken?")Why is it that a thread entitled "jar - On Cristianity" turns into "How does that effect me - robinrohan?"

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Not what I meant. I was writing in a sort of shorthand style and did not provide clear transitions. What I meant was our moral feelings and the evolution of consciousness are problems for me as regards evolution. I don't "like" these question marks. The idea of nihilism is pretty definite. There is no God; life has no purpose. There's nothing particularly humble about nihilism. I have no desire for mystery. Now, it is true, mystery has a romantic aesthetic value, but that's not important here. That may be. If they are clear to you, in a way that can be discursively explained, let me know.Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

I'm not "criticizing." It would be rather foolish to criticize nature. I might as criticize the trees for losing their leaves in the fall, and I have to rake them up.

Self-absorbed egotism, probably.

I in my humble fashion try and provide the explanation. Then you say: You were criticizing jar's version of Christianity for not having an explanation. I try to give you one and then you basically say it doesn't matter because you don't believe in God anyway.One of the major objections that I hear from Atheists is the problem of a God who allows suffering. I have just provided my understanding of why we have suffering.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Oh, I thought you meant I was criticizing the fact that there are such phenomena as birth defects.I don't think your explanation of "if no sorrow, no joy" is a very good one. I don't see any reason why the Almighty could not produce a situation in which we can have joy without sorrow. I think that's supposed to be the situation in heaven, if I'm not mistaken.Why not reproduce that on earth?

I was hoping you wouldn't notice. I agree. Frankly I can understand why it exists here but I'm not sure how it cannot exist in the next world. I have to admit that for me it is part of the mystery of the next life and I take it on faith.The only possible explanation that I have heard, and you can take it for what it's worth, is that we retain memory of this life so that we have an understanding of sorrow in the next life. The only other thought that I have had on it, is that there are varying degrees of joy to be experienced.Obviously if we have eternal life there are no life threatening diseases, and no accidental deaths. Love will be all encompassing so there will be no crime or war. I guess it is a lot like life in the womb, we didn't have any understanding of what the next life would be then either. In the final analysis there are some things that we just won't learn until we get there.Greg

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Sounds really dull and boring. Sure hope it's not like that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You're hoping there'll be death and destruction are you? I think that we have to look at the things in this life that bring joy. As I understand things we still remain the same person but we just get a different mode of transportation that comes with an eternal guarantee.

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

So if Heaven supposedly has no pain or sorrow, etc. Then there would be no wonder or inspiration. All is revealed and there would be nothing left to look forward to.I guess looking forward to that type of heaven depends on whether one dislikes the life they have.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz