Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man

That is not the ancient thriving gloriously magnificent city-state of Tyre, which is buried under layers of later ruins.

in the same manner that manhattan is not the same manhattan that hudson founded in 1609. clearly, all the buildings are different.also, while we're at, you're not the same person you were two years ago.

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Not at all in the same manner. The whole cultural existence of Tyre, all its wealth and power, are buried under layers of Greek and Roman ruins.

Well, then we can make the same statment about all the ancient cities none of them have the wealth and power they had.If that is all this miraculous prophecy is about then I can safely make the same prophecy about New York, London and Paris. And to a some degree it is already partially true of London and Paris. New York will loose it's position in the world's economy in the next century or two and will decine in power and wealth. You can say you heard it here first.If that is all there is, it is a boring prophecy. Along the lines of "A hurricane will hit the gulf coast this year." Yea, so?

Rome is still Rome, but Tyre is not still Tyre the ancient wealthy Phoenician city-state. You ignored the point about its cultural existence. It was Greek and then Roman and now Lebanese.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Faith, the Prophecy was about bringing down the towers, the walls, the fort. It just didn't happen. For 13 years Nebbi assailed the fortress, and finally, he gave up went away. The "Rock" that was to be laid bare as a place to dry fish nets was the Island City of Tyre. And guess what? It was still there 300 years later when Alexander showed up.The Prophecy just plain never came true.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Read the passage again. It talks about many nations coming against Tyre in waves. That is what happened. Their ruins are all evident. Tyre the great Phoenician city-state is buried at the bottom of them all. The island part of the city is a place for spreading nets, just as the prophecy said.I'm content with these basic facts as sufficient to demonstrate the fulfillment of the prophecy but here's an apologetics site that goes into more detail than I've seen on this subject before.

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Background: Tyre was a major city-state of the Phoenicians, a people famous for their sea trade and technical skills. As a commercial center, we should think of Tyre as the Manhattan, Hong Kong, or Singapore of the ancient near east.15 The ports and main temples of Tyre were situated on an island 1/2 mile off the coast, making them impervious to attack. Like Manhattan and Hong Kong, Tyre was highly dependent on the mainland for its resources (water, food, wood) and land-trade routes.

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1) The first challenge to Ezekiel's prophecy involves his statement that Nebuchadnezzar would attack Tyre. While this argument had force at the turn of the century, Jacob Katzenstein notes: "The many doubts about the authenticity of Ezekiel's words concerning a siege of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar were shattered after Unger published a tablet which is an official receipt for provisions 'for the king and the soldiers who went with him against the land of Tyre.'"16 The wording of the tablet strongly implies that the king himself headed the campaign and at least part of the following 13-year siege.

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2) Once an external source confirmed the historicity of this siege of Tyre, skeptics focused on the next oddity: Nebuchadnezzar is described as attacking Tyre using land siege equipment! Walther Eichrodt ridicules this, noting the host of ancient references that describe Tyre as "an island in the midst of the sea," and he proposes that these verses are a "war song" added by later disciples to spice up the passage.17

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Archaeologists and historians are not so quick to dispose of these verses: Bikai stresses that, due to severe space constraints on the island, the majority of the population and most of Tyre's factories and warehouses were located on the mainland.18 Katzenstein discusses the letters of Qurdi-assur-lamur to Sargon which show the extensive interaction between the independent island port of Tyre and the Assyrian-controlled mainland.19

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Perhaps the best collaboration with Ezekiel's description of the Babylonian attack and siege of Tyre comes from a campaign report of the Assyrian king Esarhaddon, who mentions building earthworks against Baal king of Tyre and withholding from them food and water. Moreover, it appears that the descriptive phrase "in the midst of the sea" does not require that Tyre be exclusively an island city: Esarhaddon Prisms A and B refer to Tyre's neighbor, the Phoenician coastal city-state Sidon as a "fortress town, which lied in the midst of the sea."21 Also, Prism B includes Tyre in a list of cities located "on the coast of the sea." There seems to be some flexibility in ancient descriptions of coastal cities, so we should not try to press one description too far.

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3) Critics then move on to their most serious charge: Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy the island city of Tyre. Clearly the prediction failed, and this failure is even admitted by Ezekiel himself (29:17-21) when he predicts that God will give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar's troops as payment for their hard work in besieging Tyre.

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Before responding to this, we must note two features in the prediction. The first is the opening statement that God will bring "many nations" against Tyre, "like the waves of the sea" (verse 3). This is a clear indication that we should not expect one nation or one attack to produce the severe destruction and final state of desolation that Ezekiel predicts. Second, we note that the attacker changes from singular (he) to plural (they) between verses 11 and 12. Up through verse 11, Ezekiel describes Nebuchadnezzar entering the gates of the city, trampling its streets, and slaying people. Verses 12 and following describe later waves of attackers (they) who take booty, destroy the city, and throw its debris into the water.

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A closer look at Ez. 29:17-21 reveals that God's (and Ezekiel's) stated concern is not that Tyre was not taken, but that the troops did not receive adequate pay for their efforts. The historical record is clear that Nebuchadnezzar finally subjugated Tyre even though he did not raze the island. Babylonian records refer to a new king ruling Tyre after the siege, to the royal family of Tyre living in Babylon (in exile), and to a Babylonian official who governs Tyre.22

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In summary we can reconstruct the following: Nebuchadnezzar, like Esarhaddon a century before him, waged a conventional land-based attack against the mainland portion of greater Tyre. He successfully captured the mainland, but not before most of the occupants had a chance to flee to the island fortress, taking the best of their goods with them. After a 13-year siege, the island was starved into submission, and became a vassal of Babylon. There was a change' of leadership and undoubtedly some tribute paid, but the island was not pillaged. Given the minimal return for their effort, God rewarded Nebuchadnezzar's troops by granting them success against Egypt. Ezekiel 29:17-21 is not "making lemonade out of a lemon" or trying to cover for a failed prophecy; it is simply rewarding the first of the many waves of nations that will follow.

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4) Alexander's attack against the island city of Tyre in 332 B.C. is famous in military history. While invading Persia and Egypt, Alexander did not want to leave his flank exposed to a possible counterattack from Tyre, a vassal of Persia and the strongest naval power on the Mediterranean. Rather than waste time besieging the island for years, he decided to build a land bridge out to the island and take it by direct attack. This dramatic venture is well documented in Arrian's Anabasis Alexandri.

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Many commentators feel that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled in Alexander's attack, and some liberal scholars argue for a late date for Ezekiel by claiming that later disciples inserted the material that describes Alexander's siege so well.23 Clearly, Alexander fulfilled the comments that the rubble of Tyre would be thrown into the sea, since the mainland ruins were used to build the land bridge out to the island.24 However Ezekiel predicts that Tyre would not be rebuilt, and that it would become a place for the spreading of fishnets. From Arrian's descriptions it is very clear that Alexander did not level the island fortress, in fact, he had Tyre rebuilt. Tyre remained an important trading and manufacturing center that was fought over by Alexander's immediate successors, the Ptolemies and the Seleucids.25

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Recent excavations at Tyre show how large the city was in Roman times. A hippodrome with a seating capacity for 60,000 people and a large necropolis were discovered on the mainland in the 1970's. Clearly in New Testament times, the prophecy of Ezekiel was not fulfilled: Tyre was a thriving commercial center when the First Testament was distributed throughout the Roman Empire by Jewish and Christian communities alike. Thus it seems strange for critics to propose that a late redactor inserted the material about Alexander "after the fact," but was so foolish to put in (or leave in) these obvious errors.

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5) Tyre served as a major trading and manufacturing center throughout the Byzantine and Muslim periods. During the Crusades, Tyre remained strong and well-fortified, surviving a siege by Saladin in 1187-88 A.D. Finally, in 1291 A.D., the last wave of the nations crashed against Tyre. The Mamluks from Egypt took Tyre, massacred the citizens or sold them into slavery, and destroyed the city as part of their "scorched-earth" policy to thwart any attempt by the Crusaders to return.26 The region then suffered under inter-sect Muslim rivalry, a major earthquake and plague. Several travelogues written during this period remark that the site was essentially abandoned.

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In the 1760's a small settlement at Tyre was encouraged by regional authorities, which grew into a small fishing village. Tyre finally became a place for the spreading of fishnets.

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6) Over the past 30 years the city of Tyre has grown in size, thanks to a new water supply and Lebanese efforts to develop the excellent beaches near the site as a resort and tourist attraction.27 However, the civil war and proximity to Israel make the region unstable today. Looting at the site is a major concern of archaeologists and historians. Despite this modest growth there seems to be no danger that Tyre will once again become the world-class commercial center and naval power that earned her the title of "Queen of the Seas".

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What ever makes you happy Faith. Make up whatever stories you need to make your worship of the Bible feel good.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Faith, It's also a sprawling metropolis, just like the rest of Tyre, in direct contradiction to the prophecy.Mark

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There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

Wow, I am amazed that this thread popped back up towards the top after weeks of languishing. Hmmm. Do you have Google Earth? If not download and install (it is nifty anyhow). In the search field type "Tyre Lebanon". You will zoom to the modern city. To the left of city center is the peninsula that I assume was originally the island part of the city. If you zoom in you can see the beach resorts and hotels covering that part. You can also see a harbor (with boats, some coming in as the photo was taken). From the eastern tip of the breakwater of the harbor look exactly 370 feet just slightly east of due north (1 o'clock). There is a tiny rock used by fishermen to dry their nets. The former island and city in no way is a desolate rock used to dry nets. The desolate rock is a desolate rock and probably has been so since before the prophesy was written. I mean, biblical era Tyre had fishermen, I would assume? So how does it's existence "makes a fine testimony to the fulfillment of the prophesy"?Anybody reading the account of Ezekial can clearly see that he meant that the great city of Tyre would be stripped bare and never rebuilt and the only use of the place forevermore would be a place to dry nets. No one then or now is going to read it as a prophesy that "Tyre will be attacked and sometimes win and sometimes be defeated but more or less persist and be continuously occupied for thousands of years until it becomes a popular Middle Eastern resort".More specifically, the Ezekial accounts says that "Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon" would do this and he didn't. The apologetics say that Alexander the Great fulfilled it, but he didn't do it either (he did conquer, but left the people and city relatively intact). So the prophesy never happened.I found an interesting website, 404 Not Found that has an interesting if not annoying interface but traces the history of Tyre from founding until now. The key message is continuous occupation. For thousands and thousands of years everyone living there knew they lived in Tyre, whether they considered themselves Phoenecians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Lebanese, etc.But all of that aside and to the point of my belief statement. My faith was lost because I was lied to. Not because of some statement of this is prophesy that didn't happen. The pastor of my church told us he went to Tyre and saw it was a bare rock fit only for fishermen to dry their nets upon. And yet to do that he had to have stayed at the Tyre Hilton (or whatever) and walked the breakwater or hired a boat to take a photo of the rock he showed us that he claimed was all that remained. That makes him a liar. And a fraud. Do you see the point?When someone lies to me and I catch them everything they say after that is immediately suspect. So I started looking at what else he had said, the things that seemed suspicious to me but I put those doubts aside. In a moment of clarity I saw that his beliefs, my Catholic upbringing, all of it, was a con. While I was just a kid at the time, I still see the con 25 years later and know THAT moment was the greatest moment of my life.

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

Here's an earlier part of the prophecy: It then goes on to detail Nebuchadnezzar's attack, but go back and pause at the line, "Will cause many nations to come up against you as the sea causes his waves to come up."This is not talking about one nation but a series of nations. This is in keeping with what Daniel not long afterward prophesied about the series of empires that would rise and fall in that area, who conquered much territory one after the other. This started with Babylon, followed by Medo-Persia, then Greece under Alexander, then the Roman Empire. I don't know about Medo-Persia but the others have certainly left their mark on what once was Tyre, a great civilization unto itself that is no longer. What do you see there even of ruins? Greek and Roman ruins. It certainly did become "a spoil of the nations." The ancient city of Tyre is buried deep.Also, in the language of prophecy it is possible that the following verses about Nebuchadnezzar incorporate the series of empires that followed him as well. I doubt your pastor lied. That degree of lie is just preposterous. He's not going to be denying the modern city, how could he? Anyone could easily prove him wrong if that's what he meant, so he just couldn't possibly have meant that. If he lied to that extent he'd be a delusional deranged demented disorganized psychotic beyond functioning in this world at all.I'm just amazed that people are so willing to call others liars at such a level. Impossible. He merely saw the bare rock which is there still, and did not regard the city that is now there to have anything to do with ancient Tyre.Which it doesn't. Tyre as I understand the prophecy no longer existed when the wealthy Phoenician culture with its own gods was no longer sovereign. How long that took I don't know. Waves of nations coming against it implies it happened in stages. But the bare rock is an emblem of its complete demise.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

That weakens your case.If you're talking about waves of nations attacking Tyre, you can't arbitrarily stop the waves at a point where Tyre was destroyed. Even King Canute couldn't do that.If the waves keep coming and Tyre rises up out of them again, the prophecy doesn't have any impact.Ezekiel strongly implies a "final solution to the Tyre problem". That prophecy has not been fulfilled.

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Tyre no longer exists. The point has been made. If you think some modern Arab city is Tyre you don't get it.

But it does.Don't ignore my point: The wave imagery in Ezekiel does not have a time limit.For the prophecy to be fulfilled, an instantaneous destruction of Tyre is not sufficient. It has to stay destroyed. There are no "rules" about it being continuously occupied by the same culture.Fact: Tyre exists.Fact: Tyre is still a threat to Israel.

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Whatever number of waves was needed to completely wipe ancient Phoenician Tyre off the planet has come and gone and done the deed.