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Author Topic:   The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible. Which came first?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 31 of 90 (266225)
12-06-2005 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ramoss
12-06-2005 9:37 PM


Ugarit
Much of the Torah was in fact translated and modifed from the ugartic texts, which are far older.
i'm going to go out on a limb here, and tentatively say that i disagree. i see some sharing of tradition (not sure who got what from whom, although there is a lot of stuff that seems to be the root of judaism in ugaritic religion). but i think that saying the torah stems somewhat directly from the ugarits might be a bit extreme.
the languages share a lot of interesting cognates, and it's used very similarly, yes. what information do you have about the similarities of texts, and their respective ages?
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 12-06-2005 09:45 PM

אָרַח

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Replies to this message:
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Theus
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 90 (266464)
12-07-2005 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by arachnophilia
12-06-2005 9:45 PM


Re: Ugarit
A distinction should probably be drawn between correlation and causation concerning ancient religious scriptures. The Torah and Ugartic works may stem from similar cultures in a similar environmental condition and be otherwise unrelated. One doesn't have to "cause" the other, but a working relationship can still be established.
Could statistical analysis of reoccuring idioms or sentence structure be used to test such a hypothesis?
Vale,
Theus
P.S. Anyone know where to pick up copies of the Ugartic texts? They're few and far between in Wyoming.

Veri Omni Veritas

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 90 (266483)
12-07-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Theus
12-07-2005 3:05 PM


Re: Ugarit
A distinction should probably be drawn between correlation and causation concerning ancient religious scriptures. The Torah and Ugartic works may stem from similar cultures in a similar environmental condition and be otherwise unrelated.
or even have both come from another source.
Could statistical analysis of reoccuring idioms or sentence structure be used to test such a hypothesis?
probably not. from what i hear, the languages are so full of cognates and similarities in structure (parallelism, for example) that it really wouldn't matter.

אָרַח

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 34 of 90 (266515)
12-07-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ramoss
12-06-2005 9:37 PM


Re: You need to be more critical Ray.
ramos writes:
Interinal evidence for Genesis shows there were 4 different authors.
I'm sorry, but with all due respect to Friedman, that is somewhat simplistic. Current critical scholarship runs the gamut from dispensing with JEDP to extending it to incorporate such speculative entities as Dtr(1), Dtr(2), Dtr(3), etc. See, for example,
ramos writes:
Much of the Torah was in fact translated and modifed from the ugartic texts, which are far older.
Nonsense. You may wish to read

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 35 of 90 (266517)
12-07-2005 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Cold Foreign Object
12-06-2005 8:12 PM


Re: You need to be more critical Ray.
Herepton writes:
A fundy is the bad element in any given good (religion); like Darwinists, who are the bad element/Fundies of Science.
Herepton writes:
Second, yes we know Moses wrote major portions of the Torah, however.
It brings to mind the movie "Dumb and Dumber".

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 36 of 90 (266551)
12-07-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by arachnophilia
12-06-2005 9:45 PM


Re: Ugarit
From http://www.phoenicia.org/ugarbibl.html
I probably overstated. Many of the psalms were rewritten, and many of the various names in for god in the torah are different gods in the ugartic pantheon.
As for an example that understanding the ugarartic equivilant help understand somehting in the torah
quote:
One example of this is found in Proverbs 26:23. In the Hebrew text Mygys Psk is divided just as it is here. This has caused commentators quite a bit of confusion over the centuries, for what does "silver lips" mean? The discovery of the Ugaritic texts has helped us to understand that the word was divided incorrectly by the Hebrew scribe (who was as unfamiliar as we are with what the words were supposed to mean). Instead of the two words above, the Ugaritic texts lead us to divide the two words as Mygysps k which means "like silver". This makes eminently more sense in context than the word mistakenly divided by the Hebrew scribe who was unfamiliar with the second word; so he divided into two words which he did know even though it made no sense.

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ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6238 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 37 of 90 (266756)
12-08-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ramoss
12-07-2005 7:47 PM


Re: Ugarit
ramos writes:
I probably overstated.
You certainly overstated ... and, and we'll see, you continue to do so.
ramos writes:
Many of the psalms were rewritten, and many of the various names in for god in the torah are different gods in the ugartic pantheon.
That one can find traces of West Semitic mythology in early Biblical writings is an underwhelming fact. But to assert that "many of the [Ugaritic] psalms were rewritten [as Hebrew psalms]" demonstrates a significant misinterpretation of the evidence. So, for example ...
ramos writes:
As for an example that understanding the ugarartic equivilant help understand somehting in the torah
quote:
One example of this is found in Proverbs 26:23. In the Hebrew text Mygys Psk is divided just as it is here. This has caused ...
It should come as no surprise to anyone that studying West Semitic languages and writings should provide insights into the paleo-Hebrew language and writings of the nascent Israelites. But you seem to be reading something much more into the quote.
ramoss, it's frequently easy to find one or more websites laced with inane rhetorical questions (e.g., "Were Parts of the Old Testament (the Torah) Plagiarized from Ugaritic Literature?") supporting any fringe position one can imagine. You might wish to become somewhat more critical of your sources.
This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 12-08-2005 09:18 AM

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 38 of 90 (266790)
12-08-2005 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
12-04-2005 2:08 AM


Re: some analysis
well actually. there is nothing wrong with citing yourself if your statements were published in a peer reviewed journal. however, i'm sure this 'ancient american magazine' or whatever is not one of those. namely by the use of the word magazine. which also is a holder for bullets. a crude, coward's instrument of destruction. destruction often brings confusion and we're back at bab'el.
haha i play word games too.

i'm worldwide bitch, act like ya'll don't know.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 39 of 90 (266792)
12-08-2005 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
12-04-2005 8:34 PM


noah's diary
dear like journal,
i was ssooooooooooooooooooo drunk last night roflchopper.
i was apparently rolling arond naked. my kids saw me. h0w em-bare-assing. haha get it? anyways. now i gotta make nice with the wife. maybe i'll get some fruit from the orchard and sweet talk her. poppa be gettin the lovin tonight.
gotta run. gotta dry out the field lol.
noah

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 40 of 90 (266799)
12-08-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
12-06-2005 4:35 AM


Re: You need to be more critical Ray.
So, the Egyptians were monotheists were they?
some of them were. but then they all got killed or something.

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 Message 22 by Brian, posted 12-06-2005 4:35 AM Brian has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 41 of 90 (266801)
12-08-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
12-07-2005 3:51 PM


Re: Ugarit
or even have both come from another source.
some mythical common ancestor maybe?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 42 of 90 (266802)
12-08-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by arachnophilia
12-04-2005 11:30 PM


Re: even more analysis
um. actually modern times refers to 1450 (well 1500) to current. why? think about it.
“garden of jeweled trees,”
i can't believe you missed that.
garden of jewelled trees. kinda like the tree of knowledge and the tree of life? shit no. how dumb is this guy that he doesn't see that?
a story can talk about times and places long ago and in galaxies far far away, but that doesn't mean that's when and where it was written.
NOOO!! princess laia was totally real and you're just a hater.
They fail to see the parabolic textual meaning
i think he means parable.
also, the ark in genesis was 300x50x30 cubits. the one in gilgamesh was 120 cubits, cubed. (because it was a cube...)
OMGZ gilgamesh are borg. i knew star trek was real.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 90 (266920)
12-08-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ConsequentAtheist
12-08-2005 9:17 AM


Re: Ugarit
i think it's probably far more accurate to seem them as part of the same group of semitic religions. correlation is not causality.

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 90 (266921)
12-08-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by macaroniandcheese
12-08-2005 10:26 AM


Re: some analysis
namely by the use of the word magazine. which also is a holder for bullets.
and from arabic.

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 90 (266922)
12-08-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by macaroniandcheese
12-08-2005 11:01 AM


Re: Ugarit
some mythical common ancestor maybe?
yes. did you forget how to quote, dear?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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