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Author | Topic: Increase in Natural Disasters? Prophesied? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Phat writes: OK DOKIE....Buz? Paul wants to debate nicely now...I believe he has toned down his personal attack and is back on the issues...can you respond to his links? I was typing my post as you did yours, so hopefully we're back on track. Thanks for moderating. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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Phat Member Posts: 18652 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
Buzsaw writes: Thanks, Buzsaw and I appreciate your honesty. As noted above in the past few threads, I've tried to get this topic back to the issues. I didn't realize that I was being too emotional.Lets reiterate the Opening Post: Asgara writes: Can it be shown that natural disasters are increasing since 1948 and does this fulfill biblical prophesy and suggest the imminent end of this world. I suggest that an increase in natural disasters must be shown before a claim can be made for the accuracy of biblical prophesy. Perhaps you can bring up the precise scriptures that suggest such a correlation. Personally, I believe that there will be an eventual "end of the age", but I don't see humanity as necessarily a train wreck just yet. I DO see a cyclical rise in the intensity and frequency of hurricanes for the next ten to twenty years...and this will be grevious and harmful. Many have suggested that there have been an unusual amount of natural disasters recently---just after this recent tornado, some official on T.V. news was lamenting the fact that F.E.M.A. was overwhelmed! I guess that my point is that there is a difference between cyclical increases which turn into decreases down the road and imminent Biblical prophecies that culminate in a crashing finale of the end of an era. Cases could be made that moral decadence is on the increase. Can it be shown that this is an ever worsening phenomenon? Wars and rumors of wars have always occurred. Christians have not yet been persecuted on a large scale basis in our part of the world....do you see any evidence to the contrary? This is an interesting topic for discussion, and I am a Christian who hopes to remain an optimist!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
It appears that we need to refresh our minds as to what the specifics of the original topic really was and hopefully keep the focus on that.
The topic was whether Pat Robertson, as per the quotes in the original OP, correct in:1. His observation that natural disasters appear to be emerging on a frequency increasing trend. 2. If so, whether this thrend fits Biblical end time prophecies. There's something, imo, that we need to keep in mind as we proceed in this debate. That is, that the topic is about natural events which have been disastrous, and not about all climatogical and geological, et al, events, perse. To be disastrous, the event does not necessarily need to cause horrendous structural damage and loss of life, but can also include horrendous ecological damage, such as loss of crops, forest, et al. We've been somewhat sidetracked on hurricane statistics which do not necessarily address the specifics of the topic, when the ones we really need to focus on are the disastrous ones, especially those which moved inland with horrendous flood damage as well as wind damage. Perhaps I was remiss in focusing on landfall perse, rather than those landfall ones which caused the real natural disasters. Likely a number of quite intense storms which did reach landfall were not major disasters. Then too, some which did not reach the US mainland, as per our discussion, did do major damage in the islands and elsewhere. So, in short, the topic is whether bonafide natural disasters have been on the increase in recent decades. Pat Robertson was correct in his comments on that. The debate, of course, is also whether there is corroborating evidence that other events which have been prophesied in Biblical scriptures have come to pass in a reasonable timeframe as the increase of natural disasters. I believe I have shown that some significant ones have, such as events in the Middle East, including the rebirth of the nation of Israel and such as modern technology capabilities implied in some prophecies; capabilities heretofor impossible, et al. |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Thanks Phat. Again, we were posting simultaneously, and hopefully I'm heading in the direction you are suggesting as per topic. I need to go for now, but will hopefully be able to address some of your concerns soon.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
1) The chart I used represents the numbers of hurricanes per decade. It includes a a breakdown by intensity (dividing between category 1 & 2 and category 3+)
2) The question of landfall does not seem to be especially significant, compared to the overall occurrence.But if it IS important then you should be using the list Asgara posted in theoriginal thread and in Message 45 which specifically states that it refers to hurricane strikes on the U.S. 3) I doubt very much that you have caught any of your opponents making such blatantly false statements with no excuse - which is the best that could be said of your statement. And before you get on your moral horse don't forget that I cna point to false accusations you've made quite easily/ 4) There's nothing wrong with the NOAA list. And the only reason you beleived it was what you wanted was because the webpenny's author made claims about the list that weren't true - NOAA didn't make those claims. And I will add that nobody is complaining about your initial use of the list (although you should have known that it was not a source that should automatically be trusted). The problem is your continued use of the webpennys report AFTER evidence that it was inaccurate had been posted and AFTER it was revealed that the NOAA page did not back up webpenny's assertions about the nature of the list). [Edits to points 1 & 2] This message has been edited by PaulK, 11-08-2005 10:57 AM
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Phat writes: Perhaps you can bring up the precise scriptures that suggest such a correlation. I've done that, citing prophesies of the Middle East, including the rebirth of the Nation of Israel, as per the prophets of both the Old Testament and the New, including Jesus himself. I've cited the prophesies on the Middle East, modern technology heretofore impossible, global warming, and other in the book of Revelation, et al. I've shown where the nation of Israel must be in re-established with Jerusalem occupied again by Jews, before it can be said that the end times are here. It appears that it would do well for you to go back and read these things.
Phat writes: Personally, I believe that there will be an eventual "end of the age", but I don't see humanity as necessarily a train wreck just yet. Since Israel has become a nation, as per the prophets, it can now be properly said that the end times are beginning to emerge on the world, according to the prophets. Natural disasters are just one of the phenomena prophesied for the end times.
Phat writes: I DO see a cyclical rise in the intensity and frequency of hurricanes for the next ten to twenty years...and this will be grevious and harmful. Many have suggested that there have been an unusual amount of natural disasters recently---just after this recent tornado, some official on T.V. news was lamenting the fact that F.E.M.A. was overwhelmed! I guess that my point is that there is a difference between cyclical increases which turn into decreases down the road and imminent Biblical prophecies that culminate in a crashing finale of the end of an era. You raise some good points here. However, unlike any other time in history, we have good reason to believe that this time it's not just another cycle. According to Revelation 16, the 4th vial prophesies serious global warming and it appears that global warming is not going away. global warming affects lots more than just hurricanes. Catastrophies like forest and grass fires, all kinds of weather problems, crop failures, severe drout, flooding and much more are emerging because of it. This all, coupled with the Middle East events, high tech, military capability and such seems to be pretty solid evidence for the veracity of the Biblical prophecies as per the Pat Robertson quotes in the original OP.
Phat writes: Cases could be made that moral decadence is on the increase. Can it be shown that this is an ever worsening phenomenon? I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel on these problems, short of the return and intervention of Jesus, the promised messiah. Do you?
Phat writes: Wars and rumors of wars have always occurred. But now that they're global events and military capability has become high tech, able to destroy so much seems to be just another piece of evidence to add to our list.
Phat writes: Christians have not yet been persecuted on a large scale basis in our part of the world....do you see any evidence to the contrary? All you need do is google Voice of the Martyrs, Franklin Graham's Samaritan's Purse and other relief organizations who are involved in relief to the suffering persecuted Christians in Islamic nations, Communist nations, Hopegivers International in Hindu India, et al, and you will become aware of the growing anti-Christian sentiment globally. Herw in the US, it's presently hate speech and hostile actions against traditional Christian values, but that will escalate into persecution, as per the prophesied great tribulation of Christian due to persecution. The sentiment towards Christian leaders like Jerry Falwell, Robertson, James Dobson, all good people who've done a lot of good, despite possible faults (they're human too), is telling us that Christianity will experience the next holocaust. Nearly 100 million were murdered by their own secularist communist governments last century in Europe, Asia, et al.
Phat writes: This is an interesting topic for discussion, and I am a Christian who hopes to remain an optimist! I'm Pesimistic on the here and now, optimistic on the future. Before the good comes the bad as per the prophets. The resurrection is our only hope. The planet is the Titanic and King Jesus is the lifeboat. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
From Phat's post.
Asgara writes: Can it be shown that natural disasters are increasing since 1948 and does this fulfill biblical prophesy and suggest the imminent end of this world. I suggest that an increase in natural disasters must be shown before a claim can be made for the accuracy of biblical prophesy. Phat writes: Perhaps you can bring up the precise scriptures that suggest such a correlation. Buz's reply:
Buzsaw writes: I've done that, citing prophesies of the Middle East, including the rebirth of the Nation of Israel, as per the prophets of both the Old Testament and the New, including Jesus himself. I've cited the prophesies on the Middle East, modern technology heretofore impossible, global warming, and other in the book of Revelation, et alI've shown where the nation of Israel must be in re-established with Jerusalem occupied again by Jews, before it can be said that the end times are here. It appears that it would do well for you to go back and read these things. If you go back to the oriignal thread you will see that these prophecies" generally do NOT fit the bill, and Buz's interpretation of them is highy questionable to say the least. Buz even admitted that the prophecies he was using were NOT about disasters You can see it starting here In other words Buz DIDN'T "do that"-- Buz evaded the issue instead. And now Buz is lying about it. And Buz can't claim to be an honest person inslulted at being called a liar since an honest person wouldn't have evaded the issue in the first place. You might also like to note that despite Buz's boasts of having deeply studied the Bible and having carefully read Ezekeiel 37 and having missed nothing he STILL managed to miss the obvious fact that Ezekiel 37 was talking about a reunification of the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah - he even claimed that this reunited kingdom was actually visible as the modern state of Israel which is neither a kingdom, nor reunified with the people of the Lost Tribes. Whether Buz is incapable of reading the Bible correctly, lying about having read carefully (or at all) or lying about what it said seems to be impossible to tell. Whichever is the truth it is clear that Buz can't be trusted to accurately represent the Bible - even in simple matters. This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 11-09-2005 07:44 AM
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Paul, when you swim with the sharks, you get bit! In other words, when you debate with Buzsaw, you need to expect to have complex verbal semantics in the course of your debate! I am neither attacking nor defending Buzsaw and NEITHER SHOULD YOU!
If you wish to continue to debate with him, you need to continue to patiently present your case and your points as best as you can. If you are tired of his counter-approach, it is best to leave him alone! Do NOT attack him personally, however! SECOND WARNING.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
quote: That's the lesson Buzsaw needs to learn. In short if he wants his own shortcomings to be ignored then he ought to refrain from attacking others. The more so since the attacks he uses are groundless attempts to avoid the issue. I'm being quite restrained in my criticism of Buzsaw - compared to my actual opinion of him. AND I can back up everything I say.
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
I realize this...and if Buzsaw is so problematic, nobody could talk to him and he would get the point.
Personally, I have no problems with him at this point. As an ADMIN, however, I am simply warning you not to throw any gasoline on the fire.
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wiseman45 Inactive Member |
If we didn't waste our breath saying "look at all these natural disasters, the world is going to end, armageddon is upon us, (and most of all) JESUS IS COMING!!!!" then we could deal with the disasters in a better way.
Here's the facts.1. Natural Disasters seem to be on the rise because with every one that kills over 10 people the media totally blows it out of proportion with screaming headlines and supposed "facts." 2. There is an increase in hurricane frequency and strength this year, because the average water temperature for the atlantic has climbed one degree. That does not sound like much, but it has a profound effect when it comes to hurricanes. Blame Global Warming, Blame Natural Events, that's why its happening, and it can go back to normal. Who knows what will happen next year. 3. Natural Disasters are only affecting us more because there's more people around to kill each time. Take the Earthquakes in Southeast Asia and Pakistan for instance: For the past 100 million years, those region has been a massive hotbed for volcanic (and where you have volcanoes, you have earthquakes) activity because the Austrailian Plate (which consists of Austrailia, Indonesia, and India) is colliding with the Asian plate. It's why the himalyayas and the Tibetan Plateau are there. For those of you here who are educated, you probably knew that. 4. If you're going to reply to this and say that everything I'm puting forward here is false because the world is only 6,000 years old, don't even bother. You won't get anywhere other than make yourself look like a fundamentalist bafoon because I've got a reply ready for your type. Just wanted to make that clear.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4369 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
4. If you're going to reply to this and say that everything I'm puting forward here is false because the world is only 6,000 years old, don't even bother. You won't get anywhere other than make yourself look like a fundamentalist bafoon because I've got a reply ready for your type. Just wanted to make that clear. Just to help you out here, wiseman it is better not to put things like this in your post, it is rude and detremental to the debate, though we all get frustrated with someones views we find wrong, it is better to not insult people before you start. Just some advice, take it or leave it This message has been edited by demongoat, 11-09-2005 02:13 PM This message has been edited by demongoat, 11-09-2005 02:16 PM "Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it."
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wiseman45 Inactive Member |
Hey goat,
Yeah I went a little overboard there. Thanks for the advice. I still hold that kind of idea, but I'll be more careful when it comes to saying stuff like that.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: If you go back to the oriignal thread you will see that these prophecies" generally do NOT fit the bill, and Buz's interpretation of them is highy questionable to say the least. Buz even admitted that the prophecies he was using were NOT about disasters Paul, it appears that your big problem is that it angers you that this Biblicalist creationist is soooo hard to imperically refute. Why? Because this creationist is meeting your challenges time after time, post after post and page after page. This creationist whom you accuse of lying, admits when mistakes are made and has shown that he is not a liar. You go on personal attacks and never admit to anything when the debate gets intense. Now, let's take a good look at the subject of your latest attack.
Asgara writes:
Can it be shown that natural disasters are increasing since 1948 and does this fulfill biblical prophesy and suggest the imminent end of this world. I suggest that an increase in natural disasters must be shown before a claim can be made for the accuracy of biblical prophesy. Phat writes:
Perhaps you can bring up the precise scriptures that suggest such a correlation. buzsaw writes:
I've done that, citing prophesies of the Middle East, including the rebirth of the Nation of Israel, as per the prophets of both the Old Testament and the New, including Jesus himself. I've cited the prophesies on the Middle East, modern technology heretofore impossible, global warming, and other in the book of Revelation, et alI've shown where the nation of Israel must be in re-established with Jerusalem occupied again by Jews, as per Biblical prophecies, before it can be said that the end times are here. It appears that it would do well for you to go back and read these things. The buzsaw statement which PaulK cites from original thread:
buzsaw writes:
The disasters evidence is just that. It's not empirical evidence that we have a prophecy, true, but it's evidence. As I have shown, it's corroborated by other evidence suggesting prophecy. As in science, the more corroborating evidence you have, the more of a case you make that you have a valid theory which to work on. What did buzsaw say here.1. That we are experiencing an increase trend in disasters is not, in itself emperical evidence of a bonafide propecy. 2. That the increasing disaster trend we are observing is corroborated by other end time prophetic events which I've cited strengthens the credibility of Pat Robertson and myself in suggesting that they could be indicative of the end times of the age prophesied in the Bible. 3. Now, keeping all of the above in mind, read carefully this false/obfuscating statement of Paul. PaulK writes: Buz even admitted that the prophecies he was using were NOT about disasters Note the obfuscation tactic here. Paul is obfuscating by saying my item one statement above on disasters is an admission that the disaster trend is not about prophecy, when, in fact buzsaw was simply saying in item one that this needed corroborating stuff to make it relevant evidence that it could be prophetical.
PaulK writes: If you go back to the oriignal thread you will see that these prophecies" generally do NOT fit the bill, and Buz's interpretation of them is highy questionable to say the least. ........Says PaulK......the eschatology experts disagree. Students and Biblically educated teachers of eschatology who really study these prophecies in their own context, as well as the context of other similar and related prophecies nearly all agree that they are end time prophetic events concerning the new latter day Israel and events in the Middle East. I've read many of their books and heard many speak on this for the past 60 years.
PaulK writes: You might also like to note that despite Buz's boasts of having deeply studied the Bible and having carefully read Ezekeiel 37 and having missed nothing he STILL managed to miss the obvious fact that Ezekiel 37 was talking about a reunification of the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah - he even claimed that this reunited kingdom was actually visible as the modern state of Israel which is neither a kingdom, nor reunified with the people of the Lost Tribes. Whether Buz is incapable of reading the Bible correctly, lying about having read carefully (or at all) or lying about what it said seems to be impossible to tell. Whichever is the truth it is clear that Buz can't be trusted to accurately represent the Bible - even in simple matters. PaulK likes to pick and choose out of context in his personal attack on the debate counterpart, further skewing and obfuscating the opponent's argument.1. No lie here. Buzsaw responded to the problem of the lost tribes in the thread with a possible resolution to this problem. Go back and read. 2. Buzsaw tied chapter 37 in with the following two chapters, 38 and 39, citing also other scriptures, both in context and relative to context so as to establish that these were about the latter days and that these events were not all fulfilled at or near the time of their writing and have never yet been completely fulfilled. Edited for quote fix. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-09-2005 08:08 PM The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
quote: Perhaps you would like to produce an example of that happening. All we see in this thread is you ignoring the evidence that contradicts what you want to be true.
quote: Well that's another blatant falsehood. This creationist whom you accuse of lying, admits when mistakes are made and has shown that he is not a liar.
[/quote] In fact "this creationist" usually refuses to admit his mistakes and has NOT proven that he was not a liar. He has not even offered an explanation, for instance, as to how it was that he could not find something that was linked from the post he was replying to.
quote: In other words when you are reduced to evasions, personal attacks and making blatantly false claims I actually point out just how far from the truth your claims are and how there can be no valid excuse for making the claims that you did. Buzsaw doesn't even tell the truth about which if his statements I was referring to. If an increease in disasters after 1948 is to be consdiered significant in terms of prophecy there must be a prophecy that links disasters speciically to the events of 1948. Buz has yet to offer one. See this message and the reply:http://EvC Forum: Pat Robertson on natural disasters -->EvC Forum: Pat Robertson on natural disasters Buz even admits that some of the prophecies were irrelevant to the question asked - and doesn't offer any argument to support a single one of them. Yet later int he thread he is quite happy to say:"Read the stats on landfall major hurricanes since 1948, for example. Nearly all of them since 1900 were after 1948. I've shown where the upspike in the frequency since '48 is significant." specifically claiming that 1948 IS significant. quote: i.e. people who insist that "The End is Nigh" insist on claiming that the prophecies refer to our times - jsut as many people in the past have insisted that they refer to THEIR times. Are they real experts ? I don't think so - want to offer any evidence ?But then if you've read many of the books then you will know that their claims about when the end is coming keep receding into the future. Hardly an endorsement of their reliability. As for Ezekiel 37, I must suppose that you must be deeply embarrassed to be caught in an obvious misreading of the Bible However, your "defence" is no defence at all. Offering a "possible resolution" AFTER the statements are pointed out does not change the fact that you missed the statements in the first place. The "link" to chapters 38 and 39 is another red herring since they do not change the contesnt of chapter 37 which is the point under discussion. Thus we return to the question of how you could miss them, despite claiming that you read the chapter carefully and "missed nothing" - to the point of claiming that an accurate reading is "skewed" because it disagrees with your assertions.EvC Forum: Pat Robertson on natural disasters
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