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Author Topic:   Fullfilled Bible prophecy
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 92 (113504)
06-08-2004 2:06 AM


quote:
Can you show a prophecy from the bible that is referenced in another ancient manuscript to show that the bible is not simply backing up its own story to boost its credentials? As I noticed in your post your only references are the bibleitself.
It is easy to be completely right when you are the only one talking.
quote:
You still have not been able to provide a means of verifying that the bible prophecies are true by reference to other historical documents.Of course the new testament will verify the old,however,unless we have outside verification there is no way to determine that it is not the work of people with their own agendas.
Could you please give me an unambiguous example of a prophecy made by Jesus that has been fulfilled?
The vastness of the number of accounts of the resurrection is particularly extraordinary considering:
-Jesus was not in a position of public importance. Rome hardly knew of him until testimony of eyewitnesses threatened political & religious stability.
-The records survived the most intensive eradication effort of all time. Christian witnesses were killed, written records were burned and anyone professing belif in christianity were executed. In A.D 303 an edict was issued to destroy all of the worlds Bibles and anyone with a Bible was to be killed.
-Was the incredicly quantity/survival of the christian record a miracle or an expansion of a myth?. Why havent other religions with more prominent leaders,lifelong ministries and less persecution produce similar evidence?. Because Jesus resurrected from the dead thats why and no other religious founder has done so.
NON-CHRISTIAN EVIDENCE...
Thallus (circa AD 52) - Historical work referenced by Julius Africanus. Explains the darkness at the time of Christs death as a solar eclipse. While an eclipse did not occur in that period (pointed out by Julius Africanus), reference to Jesus death was stated as a matter of fact
Josephus (circa AD 64-93) - This Jewish historian referenced Jesus, his miracles, his crucifixion, and his disciples.
Cornelius Tactitus (AD 64-116) - Writing to dispel rumours that Nero caused the great fire of Rome in AD64, he refers to christians as the followers of "Christus", who "had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus". The resurrection was called "the pernicious superstition"
Phlegon (circa AD 120) - Referenced by Julius Africanus and Origen - referred to "eclipse". earthquake, and Jesus prophecies.
When an event takes place in history and there are enough people alive who were eyewitnesses of it or had participated in the event, and when the information is published, one is able to verify the validity of an historical event. There is plenty more evidence of Christs existence, prohecy fullfullment and ressurection.
You asked for one non biblical example and its the crucifixtion/resurrection
Buddhas tomb - OCCUPIED
Confucius tomb - OCCUPIED
Mohammeds tomb - OCCUPIED
Jesus tomb - EMPTY
This message has been edited by almeyda, 06-08-2004 01:12 AM

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 17 of 92 (113522)
06-08-2004 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by almeyda
06-08-2004 2:06 AM


Well I note that you've run away from the claims to fulfilled prophecy. Are you really not concerned that your "evidence" turned out to be worthless ? Are you really not concerned that you can't FIND this supposed evidence of prophecy fulfilment ? If there is plenty of evidence then why are you not posting it ?
And you're still pushing untruths. Tell me how you know that Thallus mentioned Jesus' death. Thallus' work is lost. Julius Africanus does not say how he identified Thallus' eclipse nor does he quote Thallus. Phlegon did indeed mention an eclipse - and the only evidence Origen uses to identify it as the supposed "darkness" at the death of Jesus is that both ocurred in the reign of Tiberius - who ruled from 14-37 AD. You've already admitted to a genuine eclipse at around that time - so tell me how you can know that Phlegon anf Thallus were not referring to that ?
What is more despite your claim that there are "vast" accounts of the resurrection NOT ONE of your non-Christian sources mentions it.
As to Jesus' tomb we don't know where it was. We don't even know if Jesus HAD a tomb. If Jesus was buried in a common grave as would be expected of an executed criminal and his followers invented a story of a tomb decades after his death how does that make him divine ? Yet there is no way to tell that that did not happen. Indeed the earliest Christian documents - the Pauline epistles - make no reference to a tomb of Jesus, empty or otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 2:06 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 4:02 AM PaulK has replied
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 92 (113526)
06-08-2004 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
06-08-2004 3:44 AM


My earlier fullfillments are not worthless and did happen. They were not made up to prove a falsegod. They were accepted then because they really happened and it was an astoninshing thing that happened. If faking prophecies was so easy then why didnt another religion do it. And also not even the Jesus prophecies, What about the prophecies to cities, individuals, kings coming into power. All recorded in history as 100% fullfilled. Were all these faked? I can write those down if you want. I focused on Jesus prophecies in this thread. This type of factual eyewitness and historical documentation does not even apply in the case of other religious leaders. Because consider Buddha under a tree (alone), or Muhammad in his 'place of solitude' or Confucious, or Joseph Smith during his purported encounter with Moroni. Any of these people could have wrote anything and claim they were given divine revelation and nothing could contradict otherwise. On the other hand witnesses abounded with Jesus life, miracles, prophecies, resurrection. Jesus tomb has been found, A buriel shroud (shroud of turin) is believed by many people to be the actual burial shroud of Jesus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2004 3:44 AM PaulK has replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 19 of 92 (113529)
06-08-2004 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by almeyda
06-08-2004 4:02 AM


If your claimed prophecy fulfilments are not worthless then why can't you defend them ?
There is not one that stands up to critical examination. And from your failure to actually discuss the issue I infer that you know that that is the case. Maybe I am wrong - but it is up to you to show that instead of running away from discussion and just expecting everyone to believe what you say - despite the evidence. But the fact remains that you have not replied to my posts on page one, nor have you adequately dealt with the issues rased by others.
And yes you CAN find fulfilled "prophecies" in the Book of Mormon - I know, I've read it. And I doubt that you know the Quran any better. And why you would expect the Buddha to produce prophecies is beyond me - what does prophecy have to do with the Buddha's teachings ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 4:02 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 92 (113534)
06-08-2004 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by almeyda
06-08-2004 4:02 AM


Your earlier fulfillments are worhtless and did not happen.
We've been over this before almeyda.
Credit to:http://www.jacobspinney.com/tomshort.htm
The following undermines the integrity of the New Testament writers themselves.
1. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Micah 5:2 states,
But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
When the author of Micah mentioned Bethlehem Ephrathah in 5:2, the author was referring to a name, Bethlehem Ephrathah or Bethlehem of the house of Ephrathah (1Chronicles 2:50-51), not a place. Also, this ruler in Israel that the author of Micah mentions is supposed to be a person who saves the children of Israel from the Assyrians (Micah 5:5-15), but the Assyrian power ceased to exist 606 years before Jesus was ever supposedly born! The adversaries of the Hebrews during the time of Jesus were the Romans, not the Assyrians. Thus, this verse couldn’t have been talking about Christ.
2. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3)
This verse is taken out of context. It isn’t referring to a messenger of the Messiah. It is referring to the Jews being released from Babylonian captivity. Just read the chapters before it and see for yourself. But I’ll give this the benefit of the doubt. Suppose it really was referring to a messenger of the Messiah. Is it that rare that you have heard people claiming that the second Messiah will be coming? No, in fact, every other week I hear of someone claiming that the second Messiah is coming. I doubt this was any different in the past with the first Messiah.
3. He would enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9)
This is supposed to be specific? I’ll give Mr. Short the benefit of the doubt that this was referring to Jesus. But donkeys back then were the method of travel like cars are today! What else would Jesus enter Jerusalem on, an elephant, a camel? Saying that someone will enter Jerusalem on a donkey back then is as specific as saying that someone will enter San Diego in a car today.
4. He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12)
Zechariah 11:12 has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being sold for 30 pieces of silver. It was about Zechariah quitting his job and getting 30 pieces of silver for his wages. It wasn’t at all meant to be a prophecy. Plus, Matthew 27:9 says that this prophecy was fulfilled in Jeremiah, not Zechariah. Yet there is no analogy of someone being sold for 30 pieces of silver in Jeremiah, nor is there one in Zechariah because this verse is taken out of context. Oh, and one more thing, the currency of Jesus’ time were minted coins. Pieces of silver had gone out of circulation 300 years before then!
5. His betrayal money would be thrown into the house of the Lord and then used to buy a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13)
Again, this part in Zechariah is taken out of context and not meant to be a prophecy. In Zechariah chapter 11, God told Zechariah to throw his wage money (30 pieces of silver) into the potter. God was expressing that 30 pieces of silver was a rip off and to just throw it into the house of the Lord for the potter or the treasury. This chapter isn’t referring to a potter’s field, but a treasury. In fact, the Syriac manuscripts of Zechariah never mention potter but treasury, and it makes perfect sense if you look at the context. Again, Matthew 27:9-10 states that this prophecy came from Jeremiah, not Zechariah. Yet this analogy is nonexistent in Jeremiah, nor is it existent in Zechariah because it is taken out of context. I strongly suspect that if there weren’t a correlation in the 30 pieces of silver, no one would see this as being analogous to Jesus being sold to the slightest.
6. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7)
This chapter is again taken way out of context. He is referring to Israel, not Jesus. In the first verse of Isaiah chapter 53, it says,
Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
In Isaiah, and throughout the Jewish Bible, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of Israel from the oppression of other nations (Isaiah 52:8-12, Isaiah 63:12, Deuteronomy 4:34, Deuteronomy 7:19, Psalms 44:3). For anyone who tries to read the context of what this chapter is saying, it becomes apparent that this chapter is referring to Israel, not Jesus.
7. His hands and feet will be pierced (Psalm 22:16)
This chapter describes the speaker being hunted down and killed rather than being crucified. Many bulls have surrounded Me; strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me. . . For dogs have surrounded Me. . . They pierced My hands and My feet. . . Save Me from the lion’s mouth and from the horns of the wild oxen! Why must I be the one to point out that these correlations aren’t at all correlating? Surely the person who found this apparent prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion had read the context this verse is in!
8. He would be crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12)
Again, Isaiah chapter 53 is referring to Israel, not Jesus.
Dr. Raphael Patai, a noted anthropologist, Biblical scholar and author, writes in his book Messianic Text,"
"... it also must be pointed out that several of these Biblical Messianic prophecies are Messianic only in the light of these later interpretations. At the time of their composition, these passages may have had other meanings. The important prophecies of Deutero-Isaiah about the Suffering Servant for instance, are considered by Jewish as well as Christian scholars as referring to the people of Israel as a whole.
In Isaiah 49:3 the Suffering Servant is explicitly identified with Israel. On this basis, as well as on the basis of certain other features, all the so called "Servant Songs" (Isa.42:1-4 , 49:1-6 , 50:4-9 and 52:13 -53:12) have long been taken to speak of the sufferings of exiled Israel as personified in ‘The Servant of the Lord.’

This message is a reply to:
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mark24
Member (Idle past 5221 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 21 of 92 (113537)
06-08-2004 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by almeyda
06-08-2004 4:02 AM


Almeyda,
My earlier fullfillments are not worthless and did happen.
But hang on, you are supposed to be supplying extra-biblical confirmation that prophecy in the bible is fulfilled. Citations from the bible itself place you in a circular argument. You have to accept the conclusion that the bible is true in order to accept the bibles account of fulfilled prophecy.
Circular arguments are logical fallacies & are inadmissible. It's always the same with you guys, I show you logically valid evidence of millions to one that the K-T tektites are 65 million years old, & get some logically invalid argument spooned up by yourself. Strange that you reject the logically valid & evidentially supported argument in favour of a logically fallacious & evidenceless one. But then what choice do you have? We all know you accept Christianity on faith & not evidence, anyway.
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 06-08-2004 04:46 AM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 4:02 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 8:30 AM mark24 has replied

  
almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 92 (113552)
06-08-2004 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by mark24
06-08-2004 5:42 AM


quote:
Circular arguments are logical fallacies & are inadmissible. It's always the same with you guys, I show you logically valid evidence of millions to one that the K-T tektites are 65 million years old,
You dont know what your talking about, Scientist cannot prove the age of the earth. No dating method, no nothing. To prove it to be exactly 4 or whatever billions old. Even millions is exessive. You are just brainwashed by secular evolutionary crap like 100000 + d/insaur=ageoftheearh 2353264362 layers. bla bla bla = 4.4 Billion. This is all crap. It doesnt mean anything or prove anything except to indoctrinate the world especially in the education system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mark24, posted 06-08-2004 5:42 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 92 (113555)
06-08-2004 8:44 AM


quote:
If your claimed prophecy fulfilments are not worthless then why can't you defend them ?
There is not one that stands up to critical examination. And from your failure to actually discuss the issue I infer that you know that that is the case. Maybe I am wrong - but it is up to you to show that instead of running away from discussion and just expecting everyone to believe what you say - despite the evidence. But the fact remains that you have not replied to my posts on page one, nor have you adequately dealt with the issues rased by others.
And yes you CAN find fulfilled "prophecies" in the Book of Mormon - I know, I've read it. And I doubt that you know the Quran any better. And why you would expect the Buddha to produce prophecies is beyond me - what does prophecy have to do with the Buddha's teachings ?
Please back up your assertion that the Book of Mormon has a clear fullfilled prophecy.

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 194 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 24 of 92 (113556)
06-08-2004 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by almeyda
06-08-2004 8:30 AM


Scientist cannot prove the age of the earth.
THey can't prove it to you becaeuse you are not willing to examine the evidence objectively, or even to examine the evidence at all.
However, scientists can and have proven the age of the Earth (as much as anytiong is ever proven in science). Reality is not affected by your denial.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 8:30 AM almeyda has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5221 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 25 of 92 (113557)
06-08-2004 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by almeyda
06-08-2004 8:30 AM


almeyda,
You dont know what your talking about, Scientist cannot prove the age of the earth. No dating method, no nothing. To prove it to be exactly 4 or whatever billions old. Even millions is exessive. You are just brainwashed by secular evolutionary crap like 100000 + d/insaur=ageoftheearh 2353264362 layers. bla bla bla = 4.4 Billion. This is all crap. It doesnt mean anything or prove anything except to indoctrinate the world especially in the education system.
If the age of the earth can't be "proven", why did you pretend you had evidence for a 6,000 year old earth? Hypocrite.
As usual your diatribe is utterly unjustified, & again refuses to directly address the evidence within the logically consistent framework of science. Until you do so, you're pissing in the wind, denying the evidence without justifying why.
The FACT remains that the hypothesis that the earth is millions of years old plus is supported by highly corroborated evidence within a scientific framework. It will take more than your unreasoned say-so to change. Your response is reduced to, "no it isn't, it's just numbers, ner ner ner, can't prove this, can't prove that". How childish, such self imposed ignorance is to be sneered at, despised, why do you shout it out like it's some sort of virtue? Aren't you embarrassed that you have no evidence whatsoever that the earth is the age you say it is, after claiming you had it? Aren't you embarrassed that you can't critically assess the evidence, or at the very least the underlying logic, & have to resort to pitiful "no-it-isn't" denials?
I'd bet my bottom dollar if all the radiometric dating methods pointed to a young earth, you'd accept them like a shot.
But that's neither here nor there, my last post showed that despite your bravado in claiming you had a biblical prophecy that passed all reasonable tests of verification, it boiled down to nothing more than a circular argument. Since this one's not exactly passing muster on the logically-constructed-argument standard, why don't you pick another?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 8:30 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 06-09-2004 2:57 AM mark24 has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 92 (113614)
06-08-2004 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by almeyda
06-08-2004 8:30 AM


Still running away.
Where are the stars? How far away are they?
You have not been able to answer any of the questions put to you. You can not answer even the simplest ones and you have been show time and again, that you don't even know what the Bible says.
Almeyda, try thinking on your own. I know you can do it, you may be out of practice, but if you try really hard, I just bet you'll succeed.
Answer the questions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 8:30 AM almeyda has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 27 of 92 (113630)
06-08-2004 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
06-08-2004 3:44 AM


Hi Paul,
This is a little off-topic, but what about Constantine? I thought his mother went to Israel to find parts of the cross that the vatican now have? Which had the inscriptions on. I know you guys are talking about the tomb, but have you heard of this before? I just wondered what you think about this?
Ofcourse, I might have my information a bit wrong, as I watched a program about this but it was some time ago. It would only be proof of the cross I suppose.
As for independent verification, I was wondering if the Koran would count? Doesn't it say to heed the OT and NT? Would that qualify as verification?
Though I have heard that the Koran came a while after the NT. Am I answering my own questions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 06-08-2004 3:44 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 28 of 92 (113634)
06-08-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by almeyda
06-08-2004 8:30 AM


I know you really believe that. But to be honest AIG are very unlikely to be correct over hundreds of years of research. The earth has stratification from millions of years which agrees with the other sciences/dating.
Maybe the figure can never be entirely accurate, but it's not like they are derived from vengeful anti-bible guesswork.
Scientists told me to watch for Venus crossing the sun today, the same guy who tell me the universe is very old. As I suspected, they were correct, so why should I doubt their motives concerning other things? Scientific research over hundreds of years cannot be described as "this is all crap".
I do agree with the bible prophecies though. I think Christ was/is the forecasted Messiah like you say in message one. The bible proving the bible won't convince these guys though. Best to leave the doubters to their doubt. I also think he was definately mentioned, especially in Isaiah.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 06-08-2004 02:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by almeyda, posted 06-08-2004 8:30 AM almeyda has not replied

  
fnord
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 92 (113637)
06-08-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
06-08-2004 2:27 PM


...Which had the inscriptions on.
Great! Now we can find out which of the four gospels was right!

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.1 Cor.14:33

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by mike the wiz, posted 06-08-2004 2:27 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 30 of 92 (113638)
06-08-2004 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mike the wiz
06-08-2004 2:27 PM


Presumably you mean Helena's supposed discovery of the tomb rather than the Cross.
Consider these events and their dates:
The Crucifixion probably happened sometime around 33 AD
Jerusalem was besiged and stormed in 70 AD during the first Jewish revolt...
...And again in the Bar Kochbar revolt (132-5 AD). This time the city was levelled and the population deported.
In 326 Helena, mother of Constantine arrived looking for relics and sacred sites
In 570 AD Muhammad was born
Unless you are willing to invoke miracles - which rather defeats the purpose of the argument then I can't see anything that can be trusted as evidence in whatever Helena found.
As for the Quran much the same applies. If you believe that the Quran came from God then I suppose you have to take an endorsement of the NT as some sort of validation. But if you think that it was written by Muhammad (and maybe polished by later writers) then it is really hard to see how a general endorsement in itself can be considered as independant verification of anything in the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
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