Fullfilled Bible prophecy

What is the significance of a fullfilled prophecy?...
God says prophecy confirms Him. It is the way man knows something is from God & God alone. There are severals answers. It proves Gods existence, as the mind behind the Bible. It proves that the Bible is Gods inspired word without error. It proves that Jesus Christ was the coming messiah & God, whom the Old Testament predicted. It proves the Bible to be unique and strong among all other doctrines as no other has clear evidence of a fullfilled prophecy. (If there is please share).Bible prophecy is Gods personal way of showing he is God...
For those of you with Bibles (Every skeptic should have one) are welcome to read Gods challenges to the other religions who claim to be the way, One in particular which reads "Show the things that are to come hereafter that we may know that ye are Gods" Isaiah 41:23. Other references are Isaiah 40:21,Isaiah 41:4,Isaiah 41:22-29,Isaiah 43:8-9,Isaiah 44:6-10,Isaiah 45:21-22,Isaiah 46:8-10,Isaiah 48:3-6. So God tells the world "Cmon if you think your so Holy then tell whats going to happen in the future". And to this day the Bible is the only book in the world that correctly predicts the future hundreds of times, without making mistakes. This proves that they were divine inspired. Because any man can write a book that says be good and be nice and do this. But only God can write a book that always correctly foretells the future. (When i use the word prove i do not mean fact without a doubt, But i use it as more evidence for the Bible as being Gods true book).How do we test a Bible prophecy?...
Well first was the prophecy far enough before the predicted event to exclude chances of human guesswork? And another is the prediction ambiguous, vague or capable of several explanations. Which im sure many of you will put forward.The Old Testament...
17 books of prophecy were written in this period between Genesis & Malachi. Of the 300 plus prophecies contained in the books, many were immediately fullfilled (a prophet had to be 100% accurate or he was stoned). While others foretold incredible detail of a messiah and savior who was to come.How much proof is proof?...
The Bible is filled with incredible prophecies & facts that meet both the statistician,skeptic & Gods standards. Many opinions would suggest the probability of correctly foretelling the future hundereds of times without mistakes essentially impossible or absurd. Like on the same par as someone correctly guessing the lottery many times in a row. Unless of course there is divine inspiration. These fullfilled prophecies describe the probability of Gods divine guidance and the mind behind the Holy BibleJesus In Old Testament prophecy...
Besides specific prophecies to nations,individuals,cities,future etc. Ive chosen to focus on prophecies of Jesus. Jesus is an historical figure. The New Testament were writings of eyewitnesses. Astonishingly the Old Testament written before the coming contained very specific descriptions & prophecies .(Keep in mind that many books were written in different continents, over 1000yr span of time, & many generations).quote:
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"The messiah will descend from Shem (Genesis 9,10), Abraham (Genesis 22:18), Isaac (Genesis 26:2-4), Jacob (Genesis 28:14), Judah (Genesis 49:10), Jesse (Isaiah 11:1-5) & King David (Samuel 7:11-16). He will be born in the city of Bethlehem in the country of Ephrathah (Micah 5:2) when a bright star appears (Numbers 24:17). It will be a miraculous birth and he will be called immanuel which means "God with us"(Isaiah 7:14)
The Messiah will be unique, having preexisted his birth (Micah 5:2). He will perform many miracles: calming the sea (Psalms 107:29), the deaf to see, the blind to see, the lame to walk, and the mute to talk (Isaiah 35:4-6). He will be refered to in many ways including:
God with us (Isaiah 7:14), wonderful counsellor, mighty God, everlasting Father, & prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6). One day He will rule over everything - all nations will bow to him (Isaiah 45:23)The Messiah however, will come to save mankind (Isaiah 53). He will become mans sin offering (Isaiah 53) and present Himself to Jerusalem as both the annointed king (Zechariah 9:9) and the passover lamb (Isaiah 53). This will occur exactly 173,880 days after the decree by Artaxerxes to rebuild both Jerusalem & the Temple(Daniel 9:20-27). So, 4 days before passover, the Messiah will be present Himself to a rejoicing Jerusalem riding on a donkey(Zechariah 9:9). But then he will suffer greatly (Isaiah 53). He will be rejected by many including his friends (Isaiah 53). He will be betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9) for 30 pieces of silver(Zechariah 11:12,13). Later that money will be thrown on the floor of the temple (Zechariah 11:12,13) and will eventually go to a potter(Zechariah 11:12,13). At his trial He will not defend Himself. He will say nothing (Isaiah 53) except as required by law. Israel will reject him (Isaiah 8:14)The Messiah will be taken to a mountaintop identifed by Abraham as "the Lord will provide" (Genesis 22). There He will be cruicified with his hands and feet pierced (Psalms 22). His enemies will encircle him (Psalms 22) mocking him, and will cast lots for his clothing (Psalms 22). He will call to God asking why he was forsaken(Psalm 22). He will begiven gall & wine (Psalm 69:20-22). He will die with thieves (Isaiah 53). But unlike the thieves none of his bones will be broken (Psalms 22). His heart will fail (Psalms 22) as indicated by blood & water spilling out (Psalms 22) when he is pierced with a spear (Zechariah 12:10). He will be buried in a rich mans grave (Isaiah 53). In three days he will rise from the dead" (Isaiah 53,Psalms 22)----------------------------------------------------------------------------------NOTE: Jesus poem has been derived from a book of mine entitled "Is the Bible really a message from God" by Ralph O.Muncaster-GOD OR COINCIDENCE?This message has been edited by almeyda, 05-25-2004 12:07 AM

Oh boy, there is probably too much information and you make too many points for this to be an opening post. There is also the problem of misinformation about other peoples’ faiths. You do not seem to realise that if you reject ALL of the prophecies in the Qur’an then you essentially deny a fair number of Old Testament prophecies as many OT prophecies are quoted in the Qur’an. So you have undermined your own argument before we even start a discussion. You do know that Abraham, Jacob Moses, Aaron, Noah, Elijah, Jonah and many other Old Testament prophets are also Islamic prophets, and if you reject everything that these people say in the Qur’an then you have excluded a great many OT prophecies. Food for thought.The later you say that ‘Buddhist,Hindu,Islam,Mormon writings do not contain a fullfilled prophecy.Have you bothered to check whether there are any fulfilled prophecies in their scriptures?There is a problem with mentioning Buddhism here, why would Buddhism, a faith that does not acknowledge the existence of an eternal creator, possibly have any prophecies? Prophecy is proclaiming God’s words, Buddhism doesn’t have a god, so this is a pointless claim. What period are you talking about? Some people may argue that you are just picking numbers out of the air here, how do you arrive at these figures? This needs work too. You would need to mention a few of the prophets that you believe did not know each other, and you would have ot argue beyind reasonable doubt that they didnt have access to each other's work.Finally, the cut and paste job of the prophecies about Jesus that you mention is unreasonable, for an opening post.Try to pick out one, or maybe two, prophecies that you think are easily supported then discussion can develop from there. You can introduce more propehcies as the thread developsAs it stands, there is far too much information (and misinformation), to start off a topic. Try to keep it simple, then build it up from there. Even if you said:‘There are many prophecies in the Bible that have came true, too many, in my opinion for it to be mere coincidence, there has to be a superior intelligence behind these texts. I think that the prophecies in Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 53, only two of over 300 fulfilled by Jesus, is proof of Jesus divinity and proof that God is the author of the Bible.’ Obviously you can choose whichever prophecies you want, and then I am sure the topic would pick up nicely from there. This is just my recommendation; it is how I would introduce the topic if I was going to take this stance.I appreciate that you would like to include as much information as you can to support your opinion, but this information can be introduce throughout the debate as evidence. I have no idea how you are going to support the statistics, but good luck anyway.I would also recommend you to read the advice that Paul suggested on the other thread.AdminBrian

Is it fair to appear to be arguing the topic during the approval process?This seems to be a mix of fixing the OP and discussing.

Hi,I wasn't intending my comments to be 'arguments'. I was intending on saving Almeyda some work. I don't think it is a good start to a topic to include so much misinformation and unsupported information. I was also justifying my reasons for rejecting the topic as it stands.We could have had the strange situation of a first response to the OP pointing out that Almeyda's rejection of Islamic prophecies has essentially debunked his own argument.However, if you would like it to go ahead 'as is', I have no problems with that at all. I was only offering advice to Almeyda, he does not need to take it. But IMO there are too many different arguments for this to be a first post.AdminBrian

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.Almeyda has edited some of the content out of the first post and has expressed a desire to defend his position. Although there are a great many alleged prophecies in the final section of the post, apparently this is a poem that Almeyda enjoys.I have a feeling htat this topic could wander all over the place, so it would be good if memebrs could try and deal with one or two 'prophecies' at a time, and perhaps discuss these until some agreement is arrived at.On with the show, strap yourself in Almeyda, I feel you have a rough ride ahead, and good luck.AdminBrian.This message has been edited by AdminBrian, 05-27-2004 08:02 AM

almeyda Can you show a prophecy from the bible that is referenced in another ancient manuscript to show that the bible is not simply backing up its own story to boost its credentials? As I noticed in your post your only references are the bibleitself.
It is easy to be completely right when you are the only one talking.

In this post I suggested a list of criteria :
http://EvC Forum: Was Christianity Exposed? -->EvC Forum: Was Christianity Exposed?Despite suggestions to the contrary you have ignored those criteria and instead just copied somebody elses work. If we actually apply the criteria we can see just what rubbish is being passed off as "incredible prophecies"

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A) There must be good grounds - by the standards of history, not religious faith, - to believe that the prophecy was actually fulfilled (for instance it is quite possible that Jesus was not of the House of David at all - we've really nothing to settle the matter)

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B) The prophecy must be hard enough to fulfil that we can take some significance from it.

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C) It must be clear that the alleged prophecy is a prophecy. You can pretty much forget about anything in Psalms on this criterion alone.

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D) The alleged prophecy must be taken in context. If you have to ignore relevant text to make your case you are simply twisting the Bible.

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The first prophect is that the Messiah will be descended from Shem.This fails criterion A. Shem is a mythical figure - there is no way to know if he even existed or to identify his descendants if any.If you rely on the myth to "prove" Shem's existence then it would fail criterion B. Especially as virtually any candidate for the Messiah would be Jewish since the whole idea is part of the Jewish religion.Moreover neither Genesis 9 or 10 contain any such prophecy - so unless the reference is wrong the "prophecy" fails C and D since it is a pure invention.THere are plenty of other problems. We can't verify that Jesus was born of the line of David, where he was born or that a star appeared at that time (since we don't even know WHEN he was born - Luke puts his birth in 6 AD, Matthew not later than 4 BC or earlier).And if you have REAL evidence that Jesus existed before his birth - according to your reading of Micah 5:2 then I'd like to see it. And no, quoting the Bible is not good evidence since the whole purpose of the argument is to establish that the Bible *is* accurate on such pointsIsaiah 7:14 is about events centuries before Jesus - as is obvious to anybody who reads it in context.The Daniel prophecy is also taken out of context. But that's a big subject.Psalm 22 is not a prophecy - nor does it ever refer to the Messiah at all.If the Bible has so many "wonderful prophecies" then why rely on such nonsense ?

But some prophecies were beyond human controlPlace of birth (Micah 5:2)
Time of birth (Daniel 9:25,Genesis 49:10)
Manner of birth (Isaiah 7:14)Jesus has made such an impact on the world because of his prophetic fullfillment and moral teachings such as no man has ever known. The reason Jesus is the son of God is because he reserected and conquered death while the founders of every other religion decayed in their tombs. But of course this alone cannot convince anyone who reads. But at least the battle for truth continues to rage on.

For example, you use Micah 5:2 as a prophecy of Jesus Birthplace. But if you read through all of Micah Chapter 5 it is pretty obvious that Micah is not speaking of Jesus. If you insist that Micah is speaking of Jesus then the balance of the chapter failed to come true and either the Prophecy is false or Jesus is false.Micah Chapter 5 3-15 The balance of Micah 5 shows someone quite different from Jesus, a war leader who smites a specific foe, the Assyrians.So based on what you provided I think it is reasonable to say thet Micah 5:2 is not a fullfiled Bible Prophesy.Next you mention Daniel 9:25 What does that have to do with Jesus time of birth?Status, Daniel 9:25 is unfullfilled.Then you mention Genesis 49:10 Again, totally unrelated to time of Birth. Status, unfullfilled.Finally, Isaiah 7:14 This is the only one of the verses that you mentioned that seems to predict Jesus birth.One other point though which is totally incorrect is your statement That is simply not a statement that you can make with any hope of supporting your position. For example, Muhammad rose to Paradise on a horse and so did not die.Please, if you are going to defend Christianity based on fullfilled prophesy, do your homework. Find things that we can actually support. Do not do further harm to the already shakey status of the Christian perspective.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

TO deal with these specific examplesPlace of birth (Micah 5:2)It is far from clear that Micah refers to a place rather than a clan or family line. Even if he did it is entirely within human control to SAY that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and it is more likely that Jesus was born in NazarethTime of birth (Daniel 9:25,Genesis 49:10)Genesis 49:10 desn't make much sense in context as giving a time of birth. And Daniel is most likely intended to refer to a time more than 100 years before Jesus was born.Manner of birth (Isaiah 7:14)Isaiah 7:14 is not about Jesus. The child referred to had to have been born in the reign of Ahaz.

You still have not been able to provide a means of verifying that the bible prophecies are true by reference to other historical documents.Of course the new testament will verify the old,however,unless we have outside verification there is no way to determine that it is not the work of people with their own agendas.
Could you please give me an unambiguous example of a prophecy made by Jesus that has been fulfilled?

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"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

DANIEL 9:25 - From this date to the Messiah will transpire a period of seven weeks and three score and two weeks. or 483yrs. And also Daniel 9:26 states "And after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah be cut off". Prophecising the crucifixtion.GENESIS 49:10 - Shiloh is a hidden name for Messiah meaning "to whom it (scepter or kingdom) belongs. The phrase "And unto him shall be the gathering of the people" means literally "And unto him shall be the obdedience of the peoples". The reference to a lion in verse 9 points to the one who is called "The lion of Judah" (Revelation 5:5).

Well now almeyda, what I quoted was from the King James Vesrion. Which Version of the Bible are you playing with? Seems your version adds quite a bit to the verse. But let's look at what you have to say.You say 483 years = three score and seven weeks and 2 weeks. That makes three score and nine weeks.So three score and 9 weeks is equal to 483 years according to you. Well 483 years = 25,116 weeks. If we subtract 9 weeks, that leaves 25,107 weeks. Divide that by 3 and we get a score equal to 8,369 weeks.Sounds pretty clear.Your next verse seems to imply that the messiah will live then for three score and 2 weeks or, according to your figures, about 482 years.If I were you, I'd check and see if I couldn't find a somewhat better Bible. There are lots to choose from you know.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

One of the Sydney (Australia) Christian churches recently commenced a well advertised 10 part seminar on Biblical prophecy. I was determined to attend the kick-off and duration, but was interstate.I wonder if almeyda attended or played a role in this?This seminar was guaranteed to be a shocker and really needed a sceptic present to attempt to offset the steady flow of mis-information.I've posted this before and it is a great starting source for unravelling this prophecy nonsense:
Farrell Till Prophecy » Internet InfidelsThe whole proposal of prophecy is a fraud.Here's just one rebuttal from Farrell Till:

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Matthew also saw prophecy fulfillment in the birth of Jesus at Bethlehem. When the wise men inquired about the birth of the king of the Jews, Herod called the chief priests and scribes together and asked where the Christ would be born:So they said unto him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: `But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel'" (2:5-6).The place where this was written was Micah 5:2, which we should look at to get a sense of how New Testament writers sometimes distorted Old Testament scriptures to suit their needs:"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel."As we will soon notice, the differences are important enough to show that Matthew tampered with the text to make it fit the situation he was applying it to.For the moment, let's notice that Matthew's application of the statement was typical of his writing style. No contemporary event seemed too insignificant for him to see prophecy fulfillment in it. This fact doesn't seem to faze Bible fundamentalists. If Matthew said it, that's good enough for them. What they seem completely unable to understand, however, is that just because this is good enough for them doesn't mean that it's good enough for people who use logic to determine what should or should not be believed. Matthew, for example, saw fulfillment of Hosea 11:1 in the flight into and return from Egypt of Joseph's family, (2:15). And what does Hosea 11:1 say? "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." The context of this statement shows very clearly that Hosea intended this statement as a reference to the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Bibliolaters can talk from now until doom's-day about the "double intention" of some prophecies, and the truth will still remain: if Matthew had not imaginatively applied this statement to Jesus, no one would have thought it referred to anything but the Israelite exodus. Matthewstretched and distorted Old Testament scriptures in this way, yet bibliolaters expect us to swoon over his claim that the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem fulfilled Micah 5:2.The "Bethlehem" in Micah 5:2, rather than being a town, was very likely intended as a reference to the head of a family clan. What many people who stand in awe of this allegedprophecy fulfillment don't know is that a person named Bethlehem was an Old Testament character descended from Caleb through Hur, the firstborn son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (I Chron. 2:18; 2:50-52; 4:4). Young's Analytical Concordance, p. 92, identifies Bethlehem as this person in addition to its having been the name of two villages, one in Zebulun and the other in Judea.An examination of the Micah 5:2 "prophecy" in context indicates that it was indeed a reference to the clan rather than the town: "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel." The fact that the Bethlehem in this verse was described as "little among the thousands of Judah" casts serious doubt on Matthew's application of the statement. In a region as small as Judah, one could hardly speak of a town as one of "thousands," yet in terms of a Judean clan descended from Bethlehem of Ephrathah, it would have been an appropriate description for an obscure family group that hadn't particularly distinguished itself in the nation's history. The NIV translates that part of the verse like this: "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah...." Similar renditions are made by the RSV, NRSV, NAS, NAB, the Jerusalem Bible, and other translations, all agreeing that Micah referred to a family clan rather than a town.

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Even almeyda lies about the nature of the quote in Micah 5:2 in the post above.It horrifies me that they would have conducted a seminar to lie to prospective convertees.Incredible shame on you almeyda.Edited to fix quoteThis message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 05-28-2004 01:44 AM

of the FAMILY of bethlehem. isaiah is speaking of a specific messiah (being a GENERAL term) who would rescue them as a millitary leader from a specific occupation. it has nothing to do with jesus. also, the verse says young woman. the virginal connotation came from greek, because it meant "young woman still of her father's house" which to the locals implied that she wasn't sleeping with anybody.it seems funny then when the gospels stretch to have a virgin give birth to jesus, who btw was not called immanuel, but yeshua (joshua, symbolic of the person who led the hebrews over the jordan and into the promised land)the name "emmanuel" is only used by matthew, but that's because he's trying to convert jews who would have read isaiah. notice it's used NOWHERE ELSE?and uh, this is assuming jesus's existance can be proven, which it cannot.i might look at the rest later, but it's common knowledge alot of the gospels were fudged (having been written mostly 100 years after the fact) to fit jesus into unrelated old prophesies, such as above. so lazarus must be the son of god too?voodoo has zombies that rise from the dead all the time. are they all sons of god? how about gilgamesh? he conquered death without having to die first, didn't he? is he the son of god?frankly, the difference between jesus and all of those is that we worship jesus. which, btw, is idolatry. we are to worship the father, not anything made in the image of the father, as per the "10" commandments.This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 06-05-2004 05:52 AM