Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   where did Cain's wife come from?
Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 46 of 60 (43633)
06-22-2003 1:08 PM


you forgot to add the time between jesus and david and with that you should get 5,000 something

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Rrhain, posted 06-24-2003 8:45 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 47 of 60 (43639)
06-22-2003 1:45 PM


He didnt explicitly mention David, but he did mention David's son, Solomon, so was there 1000 years between David and his son Solomon?
A quick way for you to solve this for yourself is to search the Internet for Bishop Ussher, and bible chronology.
But it is generally accepted that there was 4000 years from creation to Jesus, Ussher gives a creation date of 4004 BC.
If you take the Bible literally, this makes the universe and eveything in it just over 6000 years old. of course, but most level headed people, Christian and non-christian, reject this absurdity.
Brian.

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 48 of 60 (43696)
06-22-2003 11:23 PM


Cain's wife
Hi all,
Just a little humor(?)
Page not found – Church of All Worlds
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 49 of 60 (43717)
06-23-2003 2:09 AM


THIS IS NOT MINE, ITS A QUOTE
Where did Cain get his wife?
By Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati and Carl Wieland, Ed. Don Batten
First published in The Revised and Expanded Answers Book
Chapter 8
It is not lawful to marry your sister, so who did Cain marry? Were there other people on the earth? Who lived in the land of Nod? Does this have any relevance to the gospel?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We don’t even know her name, yet she was discussed at the Scopes trial, mentioned in the play and movie Inherit the Wind1 and the book and movie Contact2, and has been talked about in countries all over the world. Is she the most-talked-about wife in history?
Skeptics have used Cain’s wife time and again to try to discredit the book of Genesis as a true historical record. Sadly, most Christians have not been able to give an adequate answer to this question. As a result, the world thinks Christians cannot defend the authority of Scripture and, thus, the Christian faith.
For instance, at the historic Scopes trial in Tennessee in 1925, William Jennings Bryan, the prosecutor who stood for the Christian faith, failed to answer the question about Cain’s wife posed by the outspokenly anti-Christian ACLU 3 lawyer Clarence Darrow.4
The world’s press was focused on this trial, and what they heard has affected Christianity to this dayChristians are seen as unable to defend the Biblical record. And skeptics then make the logically fallacious jump of concluding that the Biblical record is indefensible!
The atheist Carl Sagan used this same question in his book Contact5 (which was on The New York Times best-seller list), and the movie Contact, which was based on Sagan’s book, also used it.
In the book, the fictional character Ellie could not get answers about Cain’s wife, and other questions, from a minister’s wife, who was the leader of a church discussion group.6
Sagan cleverly used common questionssuch as ‘Who was Cain’s wife?’questions that are often directed at Christians in an attempt to prove the Bible cannot be defended.
Sadly, most Christians probably could not answer these questions! And yet, there are answers. But, since most churches are lacking in the teaching of apologetics,7 particularly in regard to the Book of Genesis, most believers in the church are not ‘ready always to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope in you’ (1 Peter 3:15).
Why is it important?
Many skeptics have claimed that, for Cain to find a wife, there must have been other ‘races’ of people on the Earth who were not descendants of Adam and Eve. To many people, this question is a stumbling block to accepting the creation account in Genesis and its record of only one man and woman at the beginning of historya record on which many Old and New Testament doctrines depend.
Defenders of the Gospel must be able to show that all human beings are descendants of one man and one woman (Adam and Eve)as only those people who are descendants of Adam and Eve can be saved. Thus, believers need to be able to account for Cain’s wife and show clearly that she was a descendant of Adam and Eve. (The relevant Bible passage is Genesis 4:1—5:5.)
Before we answer this question, we will first show how important it is to the meaning of the Gospel.
The first man
‘Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned (Romans 5:12).’
We read in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was ‘the first man.’ God did not start by making a whole group of men.
The Bible makes it clear that only the descendants of Adam can be saved. Romans 5 teaches that we sin because Adam sinned. The death penalty, which Adam received as judgment for his sin of rebellion, also passed on to all his descendants.
Since Adam was the head of the human race when he ‘fell,’ we who were in the loins of Adam ‘fell’ also. Thus, we are all separated from God. The final consequence of sin would be separation from God in our sinful state forever. However, the good news is that there is a way for us to return to God!
Because a man brought sin and death into the world, all the descendants of Adam need a sinless Man to pay the penalty for sin and the resulting judgment of death. However, the Bible teaches that ‘all have sinned’ (Romans 3:23). What is the solution?
The last Adam
God provided the solutiona way to deliver man from his wretched state. Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 15 that God provided another Adam! The Son of God took on a human nature in addition to His full divinity, becoming a perfect God-manJesus Christ. In His humanity He was a descendant of Adam (through Noah, Abraham and David)He thus became our relation! He is called ‘the last Adam’ (1 Corinthians 15:45), because he took the place of the first Adam. He became the new head and, because he was sinless, He was able to pay the penalty for sin:
‘For since by a man came death, by a man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:21—22).’8
Christ suffered death (the penalty for sin) on the cross, shedding his blood (‘without shedding of blood is no forgiveness’ Hebrews 9:22) so that those who repent of their sin of rebellion and put their trust in His work on the cross can be reconciled to God.
Since the Bible describes all human beings as sinners, except the God-Man Jesus, and we are all related (‘And He has made all nations of men of one blood to dwell on all the face of the Earth’ Acts 17:26), the Gospel makes sense only on the basis that all humans alive and all who have ever lived are descendants of the first man Adam.9 If this were not so, then the Gospel could not be explained or defended.
The Book of Hebrews amplifies how Jesus took upon himself the nature of a man to save mankind (Hebrews 2:11—18). Seven centuries before this happened, the Prophet Isaiah spoke of Him as literally the ‘Kinsman-Redeemer,’ i.e. one who is related by blood to those he redeems (Isaiah 59:20, uses the same Hebrew word goel as used to describe Boaz in relation to Ruth).
Thus, only descendants of the first man Adam can be saved.
All related
Thus, there was only one man at the beginningmade from the dust of the Earth (Genesis 2:7).
This also means that Cain’s wife was a descendant of Adam. She could not have come from another ‘race’ of people and must be one of Adam’s descendants.
The first woman
In Genesis 3:20 we read, ‘And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.’10 In other words, all people are descendants of Adam and Eveshe was the first woman.
Eve was made from Adam’s rib (Hebrew tsela, Genesis 2:21—24)this was a unique event. Jesus (Matthew 19:4—6) and Paul (Ephesians 5:31) use this historical and one-time event as the doctrinal foundation for the marriage of one man to one woman.
Also, in Genesis 2:20, we are told that when Adam looked at the animals, he could not find a matethere was no one of his kind.
All this makes it obvious that there was only one woman, Adam’s wife, at the beginning. There were never any other women around who were not Eve’s descendants.
If Christians cannot defend that all humans (including Cain’s wife) can trace their ancestry ultimately to Adam and Eve, then how can they understand and explain the Gospel? How can they justify sending missionaries to every tribe and nation? Therefore, one needs to be able to answer the question about Cain’s wife, to illustrate that Christians can defend the Gospel and all that it teaches.
Cain’s brothers and sisters
Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:1). His brothers, Abel (Genesis 4:2) and Seth (Genesis 4:25), were part of the first generation of children ever born on this Earth.
Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve‘And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters.’ This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Genesis 5:3) before Seth was born.
During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, ‘The number of Adam’s children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.’11
The Bible does not tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve. However, considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 yearsGenesis 5:5), it would seem reasonable to suggest there were many! Remember, they were commanded to ‘Be fruitful, and multiply’ (Genesis 1:28).
The wife
If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extra-Biblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to have married sisters or there would be no more generations!
We are not told when Cain married or any of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that some brothers had to marry their sisters at the beginning of human history.
Objections
God’s laws
Many people immediately reject the conclusion that Adam and Eve’s sons and daughters married each other by appealing to the law against brother-sister intermarriage. Some say that you cannot marry your relation. Actually, if you don’t marry your relation, you don’t marry a human! A wife is related to her husband even before they marry because all people are descendants of Adam and Eveall are of ‘one blood.’ The law forbidding marriage between close relatives was not given until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18—20). Provided marriage was one man to one woman for life (based on Genesis 1 and 2), there was no disobedience to God’s law originally when close relatives (even brothers and sisters) married each other.
Remember that Abraham married his half-sister (Leviticus 18—20). God blessed this union to produce the Hebrew people through Isaac and Jacob. It was not until some 400 years later that God gave Moses laws that forbade such marriages.
Biological deformities
Today, brothers and sisters (and half-brothers and half-sisters, etc.) are not permitted by law to marry because their children have an unacceptably high risk of being deformed. The more closely the parents are related, the more likely it is that any offspring will be deformed.
There is a very sound genetic reason for such laws that is easy to understand. Every person has two sets of genes, there being some 130,000 pairs that specify how a person is put together and functions. Each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent. Unfortunately, genes today contain many mistakes (because of sin and the Curse), and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. For instance, some people let their hair grow over their ears to hide the fact that one ear is lower than the otheror perhaps someone’s nose is not quite in the middle of his or her face, or someone’s jaw is a little out of shapeand so on. Let’s face it, the main reason we call each other normal is because of our common agreement to do so!
The more distantly related parents are, the more likely it is that they will have different mistakes in their genes. Children, inheriting one set of genes from each parent, are likely to end up with pairs of genes containing a maximum of one bad gene in each pair. The good gene tends to override the bad so that a deformity (a serious one, anyway) does not occur. Instead of having totally deformed ears, for instance, a person may only have crooked ones! (Overall, though, the human race is slowly degenerating as mistakes accumulate, generation after generation.)
However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that they will have similar mistakes in their genes, since these have been inherited from the same parents. Therefore, a brother and a sister are more likely to have similar mistakes in their genes. A child of a union between such siblings could inherit the same bad gene on the same gene pair from both, resulting in two bad copies of the gene and serious defects.
Adam and Eve did not have accumulated genetic mistakes. When the first two people were created, they were physically perfect. Everything God made was ‘very good’ (Genesis 1:31), so their genes were perfectno mistakes! But, when sin entered the world (because of AdamGenesis 3:6, Romans 5:12), God cursed the world so that the perfect creation then began to degenerate, that is, suffer death and decay (Romans 8:22). Over thousands of years, this degeneration has produced all sorts of genetic mistakes in living things.
Cain was in the first generation of children ever born. He (as well as his brothers and sisters) would have received virtually no imperfect genes from Adam or Eve, since the effects of sin and the Curse would have been minimal to start with (it takes time for these copying errors to accumulate). In that situation, brother and sister could have married with God’s approval, without any potential to produce deformed offspring.
By the time of Moses (a few thousand years later), degenerative mistakes would have built up in the human race to such an extent that it was necessary for God to forbid brother-sister (and close relative) marriage (Leviticus 18—20).12 (Also, there were plenty of people on the Earth by then, and there was no reason for close relations to marry.)
Cain and the land of Nod
Some claim that the passage in Genesis 4:16—17 means that Cain went to the land of Nod and found a wife. Thus, they can conclude there must have been another race of people on the Earth, who were not descendants of Adam, who produced Cain’s wife.
‘And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bore Enoch: and he built a city, and he called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.’
From what has been stated previously, it is clear that all humans, Cain’s wife included, are descendants of Adam. However, this passage does not say that Cain went to the land of Nod and found a wife. John Calvin, commenting on these verses, states:
‘From the context we may gather that Cain, before he slew his brother, had married a wife; otherwise Moses would now have related something respecting his marriage.’13
Cain was married before he went to the land of Nod. He didn’t find a wife there, but ‘knew’ (had sexual relations with) his wife.14
Others have argued that because Cain built a ‘city’ in the land of Nod, there must have been a lot of people there. However, the Hebrew word translated as ‘city’ need not mean what we might imagine from the connotations of ‘city’ today. The word meant a ‘walled town’ or a protected encampment.15 Even a hundred people would be plenty for such a ‘city.’ Nevertheless, there could have been many descendants of Adam on the Earth by the time of Abel’s death (see below).
Who was Cain fearful of? (Genesis 4:14)
Some claim that there had to be lots of people on Earth other than Adam and Eve’s descendants, otherwise Cain would not have been fearful of people wanting to slay him for killing Abel.
First of all, in the days before civil government was instituted to punish murderers (Genesis 9:6), someone would want to harm Cain for killing Abel only if they were closely related to Abel! Strangers could hardly have cared. So the people Cain was afraid of could not have been another race of people.
Second, Cain and Abel were born quite some time before Abel’s death. Genesis 4:3 states:
‘And in the course of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering to the Lord.’
Note the phrase ‘in the course of time.’ We know that Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old (Genesis 5:3), and Eve saw him as a ‘replacement’ for Abel (Genesis 4:25). Therefore, the period from Cain’s birth to Abel’s death may have been 100 years or moreallowing plenty of time for other children of Adam and Eve to marry and have children and grandchildren. By the time Abel was killed, there could well have been a considerable number of descendants of Adam and Eve, involving several generations.
Where did the technology come from?
Some claim that for Cain to go to the land of Nod and build a city he would have required a lot of technology that must have already been in that land, presumably developed by other ‘races.’
However, Adam and Eve’s descendants were very intelligent people. Jubal made musical instruments such as the harp and organ (Genesis 4:21), and Tubal-Cain worked with brass and iron (Genesis 4:22).
Because of intense evolutionary indoctrination, many people today think that our generation is the most intelligent that has ever lived on this planet. But just because we have jet airplanes and computers, it does not mean that we are the most intelligent. Modern technology results from the accumulation of knowledge. We stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before us.
Our brains have suffered from 6,000 years (since Adam) of the Curse. We are greatly degenerated compared with people many generations ago. We may now be nowhere near as intelligent or inventive as Adam and Eve’s children. Scripture gives us a glimpse of what appears to be great inventiveness from the beginning.16
Conclusion
Many Christians cannot answer the question about Cain’s wife because they focus on today’s world (and the problems associated with close relations marrying), and do not understand the clear historical record God has given to us.
They try to interpret Genesis from our present situation, rather than understand the true Biblical history of the world and the changes that have occurred because of sin. Because they are not building their world view on Scripture, but taking a secular way of thinking to the Bible, they are blinded to the simple answers.
Genesis is the record of the God who was there as history happened. It is the word of One who knows everything, and who is a reliable witness from the past. Thus, when we use Genesis as a basis for understanding history, we can make sense of questions that would otherwise be a mystery.
References
A ‘Hollywood’ version of the famous Scopes Trial. The play claimed not to be based on the real Scopes, but it was clearly intended to be seen as a representation of the Scopes Trial.
K. Ham, ‘The Wrong Way Round!’ Creation 18(3):38—41, 1996.
D. Menton, ‘Inherit the Wind: An Historical Analysis,’ Creation 19(1):35—38, 1997. Dr Menton documents the gross distortion and anti-Christian bigotry of the play. Return to text.
Contact, released July 11, 1997, a Robert Zemeckis Film, Warner Bros., based upon Contact by Carl Sagan, Pocket Books, New York, 1985. Return to text.
American Civil Liberties Unionan organization at the forefront of attempts to remove all vestiges of Christianity from public life in the United States. Return to text.
The World’s Most Famous Court Trial, The Tennessee Evolution Case (a word-for-word report), Bryan College, p. 302, 1990 (reprinted original edition). Return to text.
Sagan, Contact. Return to text.
Ibid, pp. 19-20. Return to text.
Apologeticsfrom the Greek word apologia, meaning to give a defense. Christian apologetics provides a defense of our faith in Jesus Christ and our hope in him for our salvation (1 Peter 3:15). This requires a thorough knowledge of Scripture, including the doctrines of creation, original sin, curse, flood, virginal conception, life, and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth, the Cross, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, the Second Coming, and the New Heaven and New Earth. It involves explaining these doctrines logically, so as to justify one’s faith and hope in Jesus Christ. Finally, one needs to be able to defend these doctrines, and the Bible in general, from attacks by unbelievers. See Q&A: Apologetics. Return to text.
In this passage, the Greek word for ‘man’ is in the singular (‘a man’). Return to text.
Eve, in a sense, was a ‘descendant’ of Adam in that she was made from his flesh and thus had a biological connection to him (Genesis 2:21—23). Return to text.
The Hebrew literally means ‘she was to be the mother of all living.’ Return to text.
William Whiston, translator, The Complete Works of Josephus, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI, p. 27, 1981. Return to text.
Some have claimed this means God changed His mind by changing the laws. But God did not change His mindbecause of the changes that sin brought, and because God never changes, He introduced new laws for our sake. Also, there is in the Bible a progressive revealing of the Messianic program which was in the mind of God from eternity. See R. Grigg, ‘Unfolding the Plan,’ Creation 20(3):22—24, 1998. Return to text.
John Calvin, Commentaries on the First Book of Moses Called Genesis, Baker House, Grand Rapids, MI, Vol. 1, p. 215, 1979. Return to text.
Even if Calvin’s suggestion concerning this matter is not correct, there was still plenty of time for numerous descendants of Adam and Eve to move out and settle areas such as the land of Nod. Return to text.
Strong’s Concordance: ‘city, town, a place guarded by waking or a watch in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post).’ Return to text.
See D. Chittick, The Puzzle of Ancient Man, Creation Compass, Newberg, OR, 1997. Return to text.
WHAT DO THINK? I KNOW EVERYONE WILL TRASH IT BUT ITS PRETTY COMPELLING

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2003 3:17 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 55 by Brian, posted 08-14-2003 9:29 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 60 (43719)
06-23-2003 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Itachi Uchiha
06-23-2003 2:09 AM


I don't find the "Cain's wife" objection to the bible to be anything major. It's easily refuted, as Jazzlover may have done.
So, that's what I think. Who cares who Cain's wife is? It's not like she existed anyway.
Oops, had a big thing about Cain's mark, but then I see that it was addressed in the article. Sort of.
Let me ask you this, Jazzlover - when you see someone read these lines:
quote:
Behold, thou hast driven me this day away from the ground; and from thy face I shall be hidden; and I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will slay me."
And these lines:
quote:
And the LORD put a mark on Cain, lest any who came upon him should kill him.
quote:
Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden. 17 Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
etc, which obviously suggest more people than just Adam's family, and they come away from that saying the opposite - that Adam's family were the only people - do you really think a literal interpretation supports that view?
Don't get me wrong - Ken Ham's interpretation is a valid one. But it's not a literal one. Literally, the text implies more humans. To my eye, that implies that Genesis is not the origin story of all humans, but the origin story of the Hebrew people.
How do biblical literalists rationalize such non-literal interpretations?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-23-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 06-23-2003 2:09 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Zealot, posted 08-13-2003 9:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 51 of 60 (43898)
06-24-2003 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Itachi Uchiha
06-22-2003 1:08 PM


jazzlover_PR responds to me...I think...he doesn't say and doesn't directly reply to my post:
quote:
you forgot to add the time between jesus and david and with that you should get 5,000 something
No, I didn't forget it at all because it is irrelevant. I did a direct calculation from the beginning of time to the founding of Solomon's Temple which is given an actual date and from there to the accepted birth of Jesus.
Adding them up, we get less than 4,000 years.
Therefore your claim of 6,000 years from creation to Jesus is directly contradicted by the Bible.
Or do you claim that the Bible is wrong?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 06-22-2003 1:08 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 60 (50445)
08-13-2003 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
06-23-2003 3:17 AM


Curious. If you're an athiest, why do you really care what Christians believe ?
Either way, perfect answer Jazzlover.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2003 3:17 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2003 9:36 PM Zealot has replied
 Message 59 by zephyr, posted 08-14-2003 10:45 AM Zealot has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 53 of 60 (50447)
08-13-2003 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Zealot
08-13-2003 9:25 PM


Curious. If you're an athiest, why do you really care what Christians believe ?
Because Christians have this habit of getting elected into office (can you think of any atheist politicians?) and then saying "Well, if it's God's law, it should be our law, too."
If there's a danger of their beliefs having a legislative effect on my life then their beliefs become subject to my interest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Zealot, posted 08-13-2003 9:25 PM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Zealot, posted 08-14-2003 9:03 AM crashfrog has not replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 60 (50519)
08-14-2003 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by crashfrog
08-13-2003 9:36 PM


Politicians ?
Sorry, this is sort of off topic, however seeing as the topic seems to have been answered already, I figure its ok to discuss this instead of creating a new topic for possibly 5 posts. ANyway...
Clinton is a Christian ?
The ideologies of Christianity is love, doing not what is best for yourself, but best for your neighbour, loving your enemy, tunring the other cheek.
Theoretically speaking should a Christian be accepted to office, he/she would be opposed to war, opposed to a corrupt government, have a sense of doing what is morally correct and serving others.
Perhaps many leaders 'ride' the Christian bandwagon to win votes, but that surely doesn't imply that they are infact Christians.
If you cant see the advantages of Christian beliefs in your society , then have a look at societies that dont follow those beliefs and I'm sure you will be able to see the difference.
Christians morally tend to oppose drugs, porn, reckless drinking, sexual immorality etc. Only drugs it seems are actually illegal in most countries, so I dont really see any adverse effects of Christian politicians on your life. If you want to base a society on Evolutionary beliefs, you might want to do some research into why Jeffrey Dahmer felt little about killing his victims.
If you want to you can use politicians as an example, you could use Bush, however I dont see declaring war on another country as Christian doctrine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2003 9:36 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by MrHambre, posted 08-14-2003 9:38 AM Zealot has not replied
 Message 57 by zephyr, posted 08-14-2003 10:39 AM Zealot has not replied
 Message 58 by John, posted 08-14-2003 10:41 AM Zealot has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 55 of 60 (50524)
08-14-2003 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Itachi Uchiha
06-23-2003 2:09 AM


Do Christian 'scholars' always talk to their readers as if they are 5 years old?
This example from Ham, Sarfati, et al looks as if it was written for a Sunday School beginners class.
Doesn't it bother you that these people regard their readers as little more than idiots?
Look at the amazing scholarship in this article:
Defenders of the Gospel must be able to show that all human beings are descendants of one man and one woman (Adam and Eve)
Do you know of any Christian over the age of 3 who does not know that the first man and woman were called Adam and Eve?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 06-23-2003 2:09 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 56 of 60 (50527)
08-14-2003 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Zealot
08-14-2003 9:03 AM


Zealot,
quote:
Christians morally tend to oppose drugs, porn, reckless drinking, sexual immorality etc. Only drugs it seems are actually illegal in most countries, so I dont really see any adverse effects of Christian politicians on your life. If you want to base a society on Evolutionary beliefs, you might want to do some research into why Jeffrey Dahmer felt little about killing his victims.
Having done little research into Dahmer's crimes, I'll assume you're holding evolutionary theory responsible for his conduct. I see. So Christianity should be judged only on the ideal toward which Christians tend to strive, regardless of the reality of their behavior. Evolution, on the other hand, should be judged only on the basis of reprehensible acts committed by a psychopath.
Try as I might, I can't find any holes in your logic.
------------------
En la tierra de ciegos, el tuerto es el Rey.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Zealot, posted 08-14-2003 9:03 AM Zealot has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 57 of 60 (50533)
08-14-2003 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Zealot
08-14-2003 9:03 AM


Re: Politicians ?
quote:
The ideologies of Christianity is love, doing not what is best for yourself, but best for your neighbour, loving your enemy, tunring the other cheek.
Theoretically speaking should a Christian be accepted to office, he/she would be opposed to war, opposed to a corrupt government, have a sense of doing what is morally correct and serving others.
Perhaps many leaders 'ride' the Christian bandwagon to win votes, but that surely doesn't imply that they are infact Christians.
In that case, I'll point out that the most fundamentalist president I can remember (one who makes pointedly Christian statements to the press and favors the teaching of "intelligent design" in schools) is invading multiple foreign countries and deceiving his own people to get support for his efforts. It seems that theory doesn't do us a whole lot of good when people are dying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Zealot, posted 08-14-2003 9:03 AM Zealot has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 60 (50535)
08-14-2003 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Zealot
08-14-2003 9:03 AM


Re: Politicians ?
quote:
If you cant see the advantages of Christian beliefs in your society , then have a look at societies that dont follow those beliefs and I'm sure you will be able to see the difference.
It isn't the general principles, it is the specifics. All cultures, societies, and religions follow broadly the same principles. There are rules about murder, trade, etc., etc. All providing some semblance of justice and safety. You can have a lot of things fan out from that relatively small core. And you can have situations which disrupt the system-- the rise of an unduly powerful and psychotic ruler, as this century has demonstrated.
At any rate, the various implementions of these general principles vary. The US has an extremely Christian legal structure and an unnecessarily Christian one. Historically, it makes sense. Christianity has been the dominant religion since the get-go, though I don't think the founders intended it to become as integrated as it has become.
OK. Specifics...
Bigamy -- a purely moral issue, but a crime.
Homosexuality -- still a crime in places, but the real influence can be seen in adoption laws, tax breaks, marriage regulations, etc.
Birth control -- a hot topic because sex is a 'sin.' There is a great deal of legislation concerning contraceptive and sex-ed, and most of it is religiously based. Birth control does far more good than ill, but apparently that isn't good enough. The problem becomes absurd in it viciousness when these laws effect the sending of contraceptives to starving people in over-populated countries.
FCC regulations -- heavily biased toward christian temperaments. I somewhat understand this in the case of broadcast media-- there are limited usable radio frequencies, for example-- but not other forms of communication.
Obscenity laws -- Blatantly religious legislation. I don't mean, necessarily, things like public nudity laws ( but would seeing a topless woman really hurt that much? ) but more concerning pornography laws as here.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Zealot, posted 08-14-2003 9:03 AM Zealot has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 59 of 60 (50537)
08-14-2003 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Zealot
08-13-2003 9:25 PM


quote:
Curious. If you're an athiest, why do you really care what Christians believe?
If you're a Christian, why do you care what atheists (sp) believe?
quote:
Either way, perfect answer Jazzlover.
You mean the lengthy cut and paste that pretty much violated forum guidelines? Not really.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Zealot, posted 08-13-2003 9:25 PM Zealot has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 60 of 60 (50552)
08-14-2003 11:35 AM


Topic has run it's course / is running away from it's topic
Please find a better place for the current line of discussion. Feel free to link back to a message at this topic.
Closing this topic.
Adminnemooseus
------------------
Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
too fast closure of threads

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024