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Author Topic:   Is the bible the word of God or men?
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 256 of 309 (459480)
03-07-2008 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by TheTruth
03-07-2008 4:30 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
quote:
It says so "All scripture is God breathed"
Firstly -
no it doesn't, there is no word "is" present in the Greek. The sentence is ambiguous. Have you ever checked the original Greek?
Secondly -
this is from a pastoral epistle - a letter FORGED in the name of Paul. Do you think a FORGERY is good proof?
Thirdly -
this letter was not scripture itself when it was written. Do you think it refers to ITSELF as scripture?
Fourthly -
using the Bible to "prove" the Bible is circular nonsense. Do you think The Lord of The Rings proves The Hobbit true?
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by TheTruth, posted 03-07-2008 4:30 PM TheTruth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by TheTruth, posted 03-07-2008 10:25 PM Kapyong has replied

TheTruth
Member (Idle past 5864 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 257 of 309 (459484)
03-07-2008 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Taz
03-07-2008 6:57 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
Even IFF the theory of evolution is entirely a circular argument, how does this make your argument not a circular argument?
I never said that my theory wasn't circular, I was just pointing out that your theory is worse!
PWNED!

"People call me strange does that make me a stranger
My best friend was born in a manger"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Taz, posted 03-07-2008 6:57 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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TheTruth
Member (Idle past 5864 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 02-11-2008


Message 258 of 309 (459485)
03-07-2008 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Kapyong
03-07-2008 9:58 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
First, please use correct grammer and capitalization.
Secondly -
this is from a pastoral epistle - a letter FORGED in the name of Paul. Do you think a FORGERY is good proof?
I'm pretty sure that a load of made up bull crap, unless you feel like proving it. Paul wrote that?
Thirdly -
this letter was not scripture itself when it was written. Do you think it refers to ITSELF as scripture?
WHAT! How does that work? Neither was any of the works of religion.
Fourthly -
using the Bible to "prove" the Bible is circular nonsense. Do you think The Lord of The Rings proves The Hobbit true?
Okay, but do we really want to look at evolution it has more holes than what I said

"People call me strange does that make me a stranger
My best friend was born in a manger"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Kapyong, posted 03-07-2008 9:58 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Kapyong, posted 03-08-2008 2:50 AM TheTruth has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 259 of 309 (459491)
03-08-2008 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by TheTruth
03-07-2008 10:25 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
quote:
First, please use correct grammer and capitalization.
First, learn how to SPELL correctly.
Second, learn how not to be a hypocrite.
quote:
I'm pretty sure that a load of made up bull crap, unless you feel like proving it. Paul wrote that?
It is a consensus of modern NT scholarship that the Pastorals are forgeries. It appears you have never studied the facts. Try here for reasons why it is considered a forgery :
2 Timothy
quote:
Okay, but do we really want to look at evolution it has more holes than what I said
Why are you changing the subject?
Anyway - evolution is an observed fact. This appears to be another subject you have never studied.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by TheTruth, posted 03-07-2008 10:25 PM TheTruth has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 260 of 309 (459546)
03-08-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by TheTruth
03-07-2008 10:09 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
I never said that my theory wasn't circular, I was just pointing out that your theory is worse!
PWNED!
So, you just admitted that your reasoning is circular and thus your conclusions are falsified. Evolution is irrelevant to this discussion.
Edited by Rahvin, : Removed comment regarding childishness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by TheTruth, posted 03-07-2008 10:09 PM TheTruth has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 261 of 309 (459553)
03-08-2008 2:23 PM


Evolution is not the Topic
It's been called to the attention of board administration that there's been some persistent forays into off-topic subjects here, such as evolution. Anyone who wants to discuss evolution, there's a whole forum available for that purpose. This thread is about the origin of the words in the Bible.
While giving this thread a brief look I was struck much more by the use of illogic than by anything else. There seemed to be a lot of, "Oh yeah? Well your pet theory is worse!" You hear illogical arguments like this all the time in domestic disputes ("You forgot to pay the gas bill again!" "Oh yeah? Well you burned dinner last night!") Seems like we should be able to do better.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 262 of 309 (459555)
03-08-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by TheTruth
03-07-2008 4:30 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
It says so "All scripture is God breathed"
Which also begs the question: What is Scripture?
As in, which writings are part of Scripture? Which begs the other question: who decides what's part of Scripture?
The Jewish tradition, as I recall what was taught to me, is that Scripture includes the Torah and the prophets and, I think, the historical books, what we call the OT. Certainly references in the NT to Scripture would have been to the OT, not to the NT, which did not even exist yet and would not exist until the 4th century CE. Nor could the writings that would eventually constitute the NT be considered part of Scripture until they were collected together and canonized by a committee of men.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by TheTruth, posted 03-07-2008 4:30 PM TheTruth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by studioghibli, posted 03-08-2008 4:07 PM dwise1 has not replied
 Message 264 by IamJoseph, posted 03-24-2008 8:28 PM dwise1 has replied

studioghibli
Junior Member (Idle past 5864 days)
Posts: 7
Joined: 01-01-2008


Message 263 of 309 (459565)
03-08-2008 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by dwise1
03-08-2008 3:09 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
Howdy,
So, that being the case..
.. if the Bible was supposedly written by God (through men), but Man chose which books would and would not be represented in the Bible, then.. ?
If God leads the men to choose the books he wanted, does this turn into a discussion over free will?
Edited by studioghibli, : Just clarifying a point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by dwise1, posted 03-08-2008 3:09 PM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by 1071, posted 04-22-2008 1:47 PM studioghibli has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 264 of 309 (461356)
03-24-2008 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by dwise1
03-08-2008 3:09 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
Off topic giant cut & paste hidden - AdminMod
Edited by AdminModulous, : Off topic giant cut & paste hidden

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by dwise1, posted 03-08-2008 3:09 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by AdminModulous, posted 03-24-2008 8:55 PM IamJoseph has not replied
 Message 267 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2008 2:42 PM IamJoseph has not replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 265 of 309 (461358)
03-24-2008 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by IamJoseph
03-24-2008 8:28 PM


off topic
I fail to see how a 3,000 word cut and paste critique of recent atheist author's works is food for discussion in a topic about whether the Holy Bible is the word of God or man. See Forum guidelines 2 and 6. I have hidden the offending text, you can still use the peek function to read it should you so desire. Please do not respond to this message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by IamJoseph, posted 03-24-2008 8:28 PM IamJoseph has not replied

1071
Member (Idle past 5812 days)
Posts: 61
From: AUSTIN, TX, USA
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 266 of 309 (463992)
04-22-2008 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by studioghibli
03-08-2008 4:07 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
studioghibli writes:
If God leads the men to choose the books he wanted, does this turn into a discussion over free will?
Unfortunatly that is a different topic all together. I, however, do not believe in free will.
The Bible has been mistranslated and copied and butchered and re butchered over and over again in several different languages over the last couple thousand years. I love herminutics and etymology.
Here is what I believe; The original, in the original language, is the true word of God handed down to man. The barberic english translations are not the inspired word of God.

Agent antiLIE of the AGDT
7x153=1071 [ IIX:XXIV]
I klinamaksa exei afypnistei

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by studioghibli, posted 03-08-2008 4:07 PM studioghibli has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2008 3:28 PM 1071 has replied

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 267 of 309 (463996)
04-22-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by IamJoseph
03-24-2008 8:28 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
I quite agree that your "response" was widely off-topic and I recognize that it had nothing whatsoever to do with my post. In other words, it did not constitute a reply.
If you could not offer an actual reply, then why try to throw up such a smokescreen?

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by IamJoseph, posted 03-24-2008 8:28 PM IamJoseph has not replied

dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 268 of 309 (464007)
04-22-2008 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by 1071
04-22-2008 1:47 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
The Bible has been mistranslated and copied and butchered and re butchered over and over again in several different languages over the last couple thousand years. I love herminutics and etymology.
...
The barberic english translations are not the inspired word of God.
That is generally how I view it. But instead of saying "butchered", I point out -- based on my own experience as a foreign-language student -- that translation requires that the translator perform an act of interpretion, fallible human interpretation. That, in addition to the inherent problem the target language cannot always express exactly the same ideas as the original or that the translation may introduce new ideas through the target language drawing distinctions that do not exist in the original or through associations that exist in the target but not in the original. And on top of that, we have each individual's own act of interpreting the translator's acts of interpretation. True, an individual reading the original would also be performing a fallible act of interpretation, but at least that would eliminate the compounded errors introduced by layers of intermediate translation.
Interestingly and mind-bogglingly, I have encountered those who believe that the King James Version is the only correct Bible and that it is superior even to the original. I'm serious. That is exactly what people have told me to my face and they remained adamant about it.
Here is what I believe; The original, in the original language, is the true word of God handed down to man.
Which raise the question: What "original language" are you referring to? Are you talking about a human language there? Or more specifically, assuming the existence of "The original [which] is the true word of God handed down to man", in what language was it, in what form was it, and in what manner was it handed down?
Thomas Paine had pointed out in "The Age of Reason" that when a man receives Revelation, it is Revelation to that man alone; as soon as he tells it to another, it becomes hear-say and as that second man tells a third it becomes hear-say upon hear-say. I would maintain that it is not even Revelation to that first man, because as soon as he tried to understand it and think of how to express it he has performed an act of fallible human interpretation and thus the translation process has begun.
Or did you mean that "original language" to have been Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic? I would most certainly agree that in order to best determine what the original authors were saying would be to read what they originally wrote. However, now we have the problem of determining just exactly what that original text was. There is no one version. We have found many manuscripts of New Testament verses, but they differ from each other. Which one is "The original"?
BTW, what is "IIX"? That goes against the conventions of Roman numerals. Are you trying to write "VIII"? If you are trying to make a statement by using an unconventional notation, then what is it?

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by 1071, posted 04-22-2008 1:47 PM 1071 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by 1071, posted 04-22-2008 4:14 PM dwise1 has not replied

1071
Member (Idle past 5812 days)
Posts: 61
From: AUSTIN, TX, USA
Joined: 04-17-2008


Message 269 of 309 (464014)
04-22-2008 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by dwise1
04-22-2008 3:28 PM


Re: responsibility for ego
dwise1 writes:
that translation requires that the translator perform an act of interpretion, fallible human interpretation. That, in addition to the inherent problem the target language cannot always express exactly the same ideas as the original or that the translation may introduce new ideas through the target language drawing distinctions that do not exist in the original or through associations that exist in the target but not in the original. And on top of that, we have each individual's own act of interpreting the translator's acts of interpretation. True, an individual reading the original would also be performing a fallible act of interpretation, but at least that would eliminate the compounded errors introduced by layers of intermediate translation
I don't think i could have said it better
dwise1 writes:
Interestingly and mind-bogglingly, I have encountered those who believe that the King James Version is the only correct Bible and that it is superior even to the original. I'm serious. That is exactly what people have told me to my face and they remained adamant about it.
wow.. I know people like that..
dwise1 writes:
Which raise the question: What "original language" are you referring to? Are you talking about a human language there? Or more specifically, assuming the existence of "The original [which] is the true word of God handed down to man", in what language was it, in what form was it, and in what manner was it handed down?
Once again .. well put
dwise1 writes:
Or did you mean that "original language" to have been Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic?
yes.
dwise1 writes:
However, now we have the problem of determining just exactly what that original text was. There is no one version. We have found many manuscripts of New Testament verses, but they differ from each other. Which one is "The original"?
Yes! This is what I am talking about!!! That is one of the most controversial important question, in my opinion, in the field of Hermeneutics.
dwise1 writes:
BTW, what is "IIX"? That goes against the conventions of Roman numerals. Are you trying to write "VIII"? If you are trying to make a statement by using an unconventional notation, then what is it?
wow.. i was realy coffee deprived when i did that.. lol.. indeed I ment VIII...LOL!!!

Agent antiLIE of the AGDT
7x153=1071 [ IIX:XXIV]
I klinamaksa exei afypnistei

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by dwise1, posted 04-22-2008 3:28 PM dwise1 has not replied

Lwilliams
Junior Member (Idle past 5768 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 05-27-2008


Message 270 of 309 (468134)
05-27-2008 1:09 PM


mysteries
One of the biggest mysteries for man has been God/Bible/Religion/Universe, the whole thing. Literally or Metaphorically ... it doesn't matter. It's all about belief & what it takes to achieve it. You stop believing, you've made a big mistake, no matter what it is you believe in.
Peace ...

oolong tea

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