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Author Topic:   Reliable history in the Bible
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 300 (420858)
09-09-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Siggy
09-09-2007 6:41 PM


tyre?
just a question, has anyone brought up toe topics of Tyre and Sidon yet? or the book of Daniel?
You mean how those prophecies never got fulfilled and how claiming falsely that they have drives folk away from Christianity when they learn the truth?
Sure, lots of times.
AbE:
Adding a link to just one example of where that lie that the Tyre Prophecy was fulfilled actually drove someone from Christianity.
Message 1
Edited by jar, : add link

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Siggy, posted 09-09-2007 6:41 PM Siggy has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 242 of 300 (420862)
09-09-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Siggy
09-09-2007 7:02 PM


Siggy writes:
... science is the study of repeatable events.
Science is more like the study of repeatable observations. The events themselves don't have to be repeatable.
The same goes for history.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Siggy, posted 09-09-2007 7:02 PM Siggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Siggy, posted 09-10-2007 1:51 AM ringo has replied

Siggy
Junior Member (Idle past 6040 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-09-2007


Message 243 of 300 (420888)
09-10-2007 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by ringo
09-09-2007 7:32 PM


have you ever observed the age of the earth? if you have, i must say that you look good for your age, or at least your avatar does
lets face it, cosmology and the origin of life are outside the scope of science until someone either reproduces it in the case of the origin of life, or steps forward and says they observed it in either case
for me, God has stepped forward and revealed what He knows because I believe He was there.
until you see something happen, you can only make inferences about what happened from the effects left behind. sometimes those inferences are provable and sometimes other unexpected circumstances can produce the same effect which we didn't realize so were back to square one
It is, however, wrong for science to do what they are now, and pass off their theories as fact as they are in the school systems. We have a word for those who only let their point of view across, and that word is tyrant
Charles Darwin himself said that only by examining all sides of an argument can we come to a proper conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ringo, posted 09-09-2007 7:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by anglagard, posted 09-10-2007 2:13 AM Siggy has replied
 Message 245 by iceage, posted 09-10-2007 2:42 AM Siggy has not replied
 Message 246 by NosyNed, posted 09-10-2007 2:46 AM Siggy has not replied
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 09-10-2007 11:04 AM Siggy has replied

anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 244 of 300 (420890)
09-10-2007 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Siggy
09-10-2007 1:51 AM


So When Was That Flood?
Welcome to EvC!
Siggy writes:
for me, God has stepped forward and revealed what He knows because I believe He was there.
Is there any chance that God may have revealed the exact date of Noah's Flood to you? I have been asking all those who take the Bible as literal and inerrant and can't seem to get a straight answer. Isn't it a simple matter of accounting, seeing how the Bible is so easy to apprehend?
Edited by anglagard, : forgot signature

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Siggy, posted 09-10-2007 1:51 AM Siggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 6:31 PM anglagard has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 245 of 300 (420891)
09-10-2007 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Siggy
09-10-2007 1:51 AM


Revealed Truth
siggy writes:
God has stepped forward and revealed what He knows because I believe He was there.
You must be really special. In the last 3000 years not one single advance in our knowledge of the workings of our universe has ever come from someone with the revealed truth from God - not once.
The abbreviated score card is some like this....
Religion Revealed Truth      Science/Observation/Hypothesis
-----------------------------------------------------------
        --                    1. Spherical Earth
                              2. Heleocentric Solar system
                              3. Newtonian Mechanics
                              4. Atomic Structure of Matter
                              5. Sub-Atomic Particles
                              6. Particle/Wave Duality
                              7. Nuclear Powered Sun
                              8. Maxwell relations
                              9. Relativity
                             10. Old Earth
                             11. Galaxy content of the universe
                             12. Relativity
                             13. Mendelian Genetics
                             14. DNA
                             ....
Edited by iceage, : Add subtopic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Siggy, posted 09-10-2007 1:51 AM Siggy has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 246 of 300 (420892)
09-10-2007 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Siggy
09-10-2007 1:51 AM


Suggesting a thread
Message 1
Perhaps you should take this idea that anything that happened in the past can't be observed to this thread.
We have, indeed, observed the age of the earth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Siggy, posted 09-10-2007 1:51 AM Siggy has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 247 of 300 (420934)
09-10-2007 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Siggy
09-10-2007 1:51 AM


Siggy writes:
have you ever observed the age of the earth?
Have you ever observed your own age?
You were there at your own birth, but you weren't in any condition to observe, or to know the time and date. Think about it: How do you really know how old you are?
As Ned has suggested, detailed discussion of that question should go to the appropriate thread.
until you see something happen, you can only make inferences about what happened from the effects left behind.
And, of course, inferences from solid data are far more relaible than eyewitness reports - both scientifically and historically.
It is, however, wrong for science to do what they are now....
The topic isn't about your misunderstanding of science. It's about reliable history in the Bible.
Edited by Ringo, : Sprlling.

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Siggy, posted 09-10-2007 1:51 AM Siggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 9:36 PM ringo has replied

Siggy
Junior Member (Idle past 6040 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-09-2007


Message 248 of 300 (421676)
09-13-2007 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by anglagard
09-10-2007 2:13 AM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
Is there any chance that God may have revealed the exact date of Noah's Flood to you? I have been asking all those who take the Bible as literal and inerrant and can't seem to get a straight answer. Isn't it a simple matter of accounting, seeing how the Bible is so easy to apprehend?
isnt that kinda hypocritical of you seeing as how you cannot tell me how old the universe is? you asking me that would be like me asking you when monkeys began to have rational thought; the when isnt as important as the fact that it happened. Can you tell me the year the Assyrian empire began to go out from Nineveh? then i guess it must not have happened . . .
Edited by Siggy, : fixed quotes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by anglagard, posted 09-10-2007 2:13 AM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 09-13-2007 7:28 PM Siggy has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 249 of 300 (421679)
09-13-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Siggy
09-13-2007 6:31 PM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
isnt that kinda hypocritical of you seeing as how you cannot tell me how old the universe is?
Not at all. We can tell you that the universe is at least 14.5 billion years old and there has not been a world-wide flood on earth in at least the last several hundred million years, certainly there has never been one while humans lived.
If, as in your fantasy, it happened within the last few thousand years you should be able to pin point it with some accuracy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 6:31 PM Siggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 9:28 PM jar has replied

Siggy
Junior Member (Idle past 6040 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-09-2007


Message 250 of 300 (421691)
09-13-2007 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
09-13-2007 7:28 PM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
you still haven't told me anything; if your high and mighty scientific process is so great, then why cant you be more specific.
I can make idiotic general statements too . . . the flood happened at least 3 years ago. LOL
at least i can be a bit more specific, the flood happened between 3000 and 6000 years ago.
were getting off topic here anyway, the whole reason you asked this question was to ask "if the Bible is so historically accurate why cant it tell us when the flood was?" and again, the fact that we dont know what time it happened isnt the point, the point is that it did happen.
but on this side note, isnt it interesting how most every major civilization on earth has some myth or story about a flood? the Japanese even believed that the earth started with water (something about a sword was in there too) anyway they dont have the details right, but just about all of them have a flood story, pretty remarkable for people who had never talked to each other.
also, and i mean this in the nicest way possible. Dont you ever call my beliefs a fantasy again; I try to respect your beliefs, and i expect respect in kind; it takes far more faith to believe that the universe evolved from hydrogen gas than to believe in a creator. your signature is right Aslan is not a tame lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 09-13-2007 7:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 09-13-2007 9:46 PM Siggy has replied
 Message 253 by camanintx, posted 09-13-2007 9:48 PM Siggy has not replied
 Message 254 by iceage, posted 09-13-2007 9:50 PM Siggy has replied

Siggy
Junior Member (Idle past 6040 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-09-2007


Message 251 of 300 (421693)
09-13-2007 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
09-10-2007 11:04 AM


Have you ever observed your own age?
You were there at your own birth, but you weren't in any condition to observe, or to know the time and date. Think about it: How do you really know how old you are?
no, but I know who has . . . really your argument falls apart because someone did witness my birth; and they recorded it on an official document (granted it is in Korean and I cant read it) but they did. Do you know someone who's observed the age of the earth?
And, of course, inferences from solid data are far more relaible[SIC] than eyewitness reports - both scientifically and historically.
is this the same "reliable" data that told us the trees in the Mt. St. Helen's explosion were 20,000,000 years old? or the same "reliable" data that said Nebraska Man was the missing link?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 09-10-2007 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 09-14-2007 8:38 PM Siggy has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 252 of 300 (421694)
09-13-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Siggy
09-13-2007 9:28 PM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
at least i can be a bit more specific, the flood happened between 3000 and 6000 years ago.
Except of course that is simply false, not true.
but on this side note, isnt it interesting how most every major civilization on earth has some myth or story about a flood? the Japanese even believed that the earth started with water (something about a sword was in there too) anyway they dont have the details right, but just about all of them have a flood story, pretty remarkable for people who had never talked to each other.
Not surprising at all. Local floods happen.
Dont you ever call my beliefs a fantasy again; I try to respect your beliefs, and i expect respect in kind; it takes far more faith to believe that the universe evolved from hydrogen gas than to believe in a creator. your signature is right Aslan is not a tame lion
You are, of course free to believe anything, but no one should respect beliefs that are patently false.
A world-wide flood is fantasy. It simply never happened. If it bothers you that folk laugh at the idea of a world-wide flood, then learn. No one has to stay ignorant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 9:28 PM Siggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 10:09 PM jar has replied

camanintx
Junior Member (Idle past 5211 days)
Posts: 4
From: 3rd rock from the Sun
Joined: 09-11-2007


Message 253 of 300 (421695)
09-13-2007 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Siggy
09-13-2007 9:28 PM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
Siggy writes:
but on this side note, isnt it interesting how most every major civilization on earth has some myth or story about a flood? the Japanese even believed that the earth started with water (something about a sword was in there too) anyway they dont have the details right, but just about all of them have a flood story, pretty remarkable for people who had never talked to each other.
Since the majority of people live near water and flooding is the most deadly and destructive of natural disasters, why is it remarkable that totally separate cultures have flood myths?

"Can omniscient God, who knows the future, find the omnipotence to change His future mind?" -- Karen Owens

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 9:28 PM Siggy has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 254 of 300 (421696)
09-13-2007 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Siggy
09-13-2007 9:28 PM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
siggy writes:
if your high and mighty scientific process is so great, then why cant you be more specific.
I will repeat, since you ignored my last post and it is still a fitting response to your question.
In the last 3000 years not one single advance in our knowledge of the workings of our universe can be attributed to a literal, revealed or inspired reading of the scriptures - not once.
The abbreviated score card is some like this....
Religion Revealed Truth   Science/Observation/Hypothesis
--------------------------------------------------------
      --                    1. Spherical Earth
                            2. Heleocentric Solar system
                            3. Newtonian Mechanics
                            4. Atomic Structure of Matter
                            5. Sub-Atomic Particles
                            6. Particle/Wave Duality
                            7. Nuclear Reactions
                            8. Maxwell relations
                            9. Relativity
                            10. Old Earth
                            11. Galaxies
                            12. Relativity
                            13. Mendelian Genetics
                            14. Structure
                            ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 9:28 PM Siggy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Siggy, posted 09-13-2007 10:11 PM iceage has not replied

Siggy
Junior Member (Idle past 6040 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 09-09-2007


Message 255 of 300 (421699)
09-13-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
09-13-2007 9:46 PM


Re: So When Was That Flood?
Except of course that is simply false, not true.
care to prove that statement instead of making unqualified statements?
Not surprising at all. Local floods happen.
first of all, i doubt that anyone is convoluted enough to believe that minor floods would be recorded in the mythology of a civilization; it would have to be something drastic for the stories to be preserved 3000+ years. Then to say you would have me believe that there were a dozen major floods in different areas of the world than one world wide flood? which seems more likely?
You are, of course free to believe anything, but no one should respect beliefs that are patently false.
A world-wide flood is fantasy. It simply never happened. If it bothers you that folk laugh at the idea of a world-wide flood, then learn. No one has to stay ignorant.
here look i can make unproved unqualified statements too; watch.
you're wrong.
evolution is stupid.
perhaps next time your superior intellect can provide us with some proof or science or history (which this thread was supposed to be on) rather than making unqualified unproved unscientific statements.
Edited by Siggy, : fixing formating

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 09-13-2007 9:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 09-13-2007 10:18 PM Siggy has not replied
 Message 258 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2007 10:19 PM Siggy has not replied

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