Reliable history in the Bible

the issue that i have is that entire passage hinges on one single phrase, which would have been a rather easy insertion. if you take out "who was call christ" it still makes sense, only there's one jesus instead of two. i find a passage suspicious if the cited instance and the general context minus the instance seem to say two different things.really, i'm not especially hot for the circular logic. i do believe that jesus was almost certainly a real person, and i would frankly really, really like some good historical evidence that he was. i do follow the basic argument that i began arguing against (diablo advocati), which spawned this subthread: the null assumption is that the nt is not a total work of fiction. i'd also like some evidence for david -- i think he probably existed too. though i doubt moses did.

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I would start with Genesis.
1. Skeptics still can not answer how all living matter, emotions and intelligence came from non-living matter. This is admitted on a leading evolutionist site which states the following:Early Cell " What were the first living cells like? Scientists don’t know for sure, for we lack good data from the first 2 billion years of Earth’s history..”2. Introduction: "It's difficult to be precise about events we cannot observe directly."3. "Appreciating contemporary life is one thing, but understanding how it might have arisen from nonliving matter billons of years ago is quite another. Can we be sure that the basic ingredients for life were present, or would have naturally emerged, on primordial Earth? Furthermore, is it likely that those nonliving building blocks could have fashioned a simple living cell given the harsh conditions on our planet billions of years ago?Quantum flutter does not help either since either there was nothing to begin with or there was something and that must be explained.Most paleontologists agree that the earliest civilizations began in the fertile cresent, where the Bible also places it. The fact that seven days originated somewhere and has been passed on to every major culture all over the world. Archeology also reveals stories and drawings of a "tree of life" from Mesopotamia all the way to South America (example would be the Jade Tree of Life stone. The Bible speaks of the Garden of Eden being at the source of the four rivers. David Rohl has made some interesting points showing that perhaps The Garden was at the Northern part of the four rivers. Evidence agrees with the four rivers and the names. The land of Nod is also east of the area (even today) just as the Bible states.
I would then use evidence of the different discoveries such as metal works and stringed instruments which skeptics once attacked but now most people agree that they are dated back to when the Bible states and the area. Continuing, on-site archeologists believe that the Enki Tablets are speaking of Noah and his family (Lamech, Naamah, Jobel, Jubil, and Tubal-Cain. The Enki Tablets mention Naamah and depicts the charecters of Noah's family. The fossil record does not disagree with the Bible either. Sea fossils are found on the highest mountains and the largest deserts. In fact, in Europe and in Florida, many fossils were found together from totally different environments where see fossils were largely conglomerated with fresh water fossils, land animal and plant fossils. Even leading evolutionsists had problems with this since it indicates a catrastrophe rather than uniformitarianism see: http://www.s8int.com/boneyard2.html
The mammoth and mastadon fossils have been dated as early as 2000 years ago and many 4,000 years ago (on Wrangler Island) also making scientists re-think their position on the dating methods. In fact, at the American Museum of Natural History, it is reported that the skeleton of one great mastedon when found, was still in the position in which it had died some
“11 thousand” years ago, standing upright, with its legs thrust forward and its head tilted upward, apparently gasping for air.
Other problematic dating sources were stalactites and stalagmites where they were found to grow inches in just days. Strata dating has been problematic because lower stratas were dated later than higher stratas.Flood stories have appeared on almost every continent and many countries. This has also puzzled many skeptics. Evolution has changed from decending from a pair of "missing links" to world wide evolution of many parents. If this was the case, then how did everyone get the same stories? By the way, the Epic of Gilgamesh did not have the flood story in the oldest text. It did not appear until later around 669 - 627 BCE in the library of Ashurbanipal. Evidence also has overturned the original ideas of the Phoenician Ugarit tablets indicating a date closer to 700 to 800 B.C. rather than 14 to 1500 B.C. Naming peoples, nations, and excavating jewlry also worn by Jewish women in close to 700 B.C.Noah's Ark:
The ark story is mentioned in several ancient texts as well. Babylonian, Assyrian, Sumerian, Akkadian, even Asia, South and North America, India, Australia. The Sumerian tablets agree with the Bible that the longevity of life changed for man after the flood, although the kings listed seemed to have lived far longer than even mentioned in the Bible. BEROSUS riest of Bel in the days of Alexander the Great (close to 300 B.C.)
wrote of Noah (Xisuthrus), the ark, the flood, Noah’s family, the animals, and the birds when the waters started to subside.
Multiple levels of strata on trees and animals also indicate a sudden catastrophe rather than millions of years of change. So many mastadon's and even dinosaurs were suddenly killed by some great catastrophe. There are so many Mastodon fossils and even leathery bodies uncovered by ice, that some museums have asked not to bring anymore because they have enough. Living fossils also continue to be discovered from the coelecanth, the few recently found, the wooly rhino, and more. Wooly rhinos were found alongside the Wooly mammoths and mastodons stuck in the muck before they were killed. The discoverer of the Titantic also seems to support a great flood with the discovery at the Black sea with the sudden change from fresh-water shells to salt-water shells dating close to "7,000" years ago.
Getting back to the Ark, other historians that write about this ark are:
Josephus
Berossus
and
When Sennacherib (Assyrian King) collected what he called his “sacred plank” from the ark, he celebrated his visit by carving several reliefs of himself at the foot of a mountain in this area called Judi Dagh.
We also know that the 5th-century Nestorian Christians built several monasteries there, including one on the summit known as the Cloister of the Ark."
From the ark, people and animals would travel from continent to continent with the continual changes of global warming and freezing. One example is the mini ice age where people could walk to Staton Island from the mainland and glaciers destroyed villiges in the Swiss Alps in the 17th century. Continents have always been connected at one time or another. This was agreed even by a leading evolutionist, Stephen Jay Gould. In fact, most of us may remember just in March of 2006, two men walked from Alaska to Siberia and were arrested once they got there. They simply walked on the ice. Many "old-timers" in Alaska speak of when their ancestors came over from Russia over the ice. Indonesia is very close to Australia and there are thousands of little island in between. When it was colder, the water level went down but when warmer, the water level rose. More support for this is the fact that Antarctica is the furthest away from all of the other contenents and the only domestic animals are animals that can either swim or fly.
The mini ice age continued to close to the 1800s. In "The Year Without A Summer" 1816, American and Europe both were iced over in mid-June. Icicles were over a feet long, thousands of animals died. It was difficult for farmers to feed their horses and seems to be why the motorcycle was invented. In fact, because of this storm, some story-tellers were trapped in a hotel and told ghost stories. They promised to print them. The first one was Mary Shelly who wrote Frankenstein.
In 1911, Niagra Falls froze completely over with people waking both on top and below. You can still look at the photos today.Continuing to the Tower of Babyl:
Sumerian tablets record the confusion of language as we have in the Biblical account of the Tower of Babel(Genesis 11:1-9). “There was a golden age when all mankind spoke the same language. Speech was then confused by God, lord of wisdom.” The Babylonians had a similar account in which the gods destroyed a temple tower and "scattered them abroad and made strange their speech."
The Sibyl (500 B.C.) also makes mention of this tower, and of the confusion of the language, when she says thus: "When all men were of one language, some of them built a high tower, as if they would thereby ascend up to heaven, but the gods sent storms of wind and overthrew the tower, and gave every one his peculiar language; and for this reason it was that the city was called Babylon."JOSEPHUS writes about itHerodotus: The Histories I:178 - 182, with the measurement of the first 2 steps,Seleucid tablet of 229 BC (Louvre AO 6555), giving the sizes of the steps.
We now have for the first time an illustration contemporary with Nebuchadnezzar II's restoring and enlargement of the Tower of Babel, and with a caption making the identity absolutely sure. We also have the building plans, as well as a short account of the reconstruction process. The text also mentions the restoration of the another ziggurat in Borsippa, once believed by some scholars to be the Tower of Babel.
It reads: "THE HOUSE, THE FOUNDATION OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, ZIGGURAT IN BABYLON" CAPTION IDENTIFYING THE GREAT ZIGGURAT OF BABYLON, THE TOWER OF BABEL. THE ROYAL INSCRIPTION OF NEBUCHADNEZZAR CONTINUES: I MADE IT THE WONDER OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD, I RAISED ITS TOP TO THE HEAVEN, MADE DOORS FOR THE GATES, AND I COVERED IT WITH BITUMEN AND BRICKS"Nebuchadnezzar's father actually started the rebuilding of the tower. Nebuchadnezzar finished it and later and the bricks had his name imprinted on them. The tower was damaged by the Persian Empire. Alexander the Great had it torn down and wanted to destroy it but he was not able to.The two earliest languages are Sumerian and Akkadian. There must have been a change of language during that time period. Incidentally, Babylon is on the border of both countries.Ur Nammu was another master builder of the time. His law is almost 300 years older than Hammurabi's law. He also built the Ziggarut of Ur where Abraham was from. The customs mentioned in the laws of Ur Nammu agree with the customs given in the Bible. One example was when a wife could not bear children to her husband, that she could appoint another women to have a child and the child would be as her own. The Ebla tablets (while there is still debate on the names of the patriarchs etc.) do agree with the customs of the times as well. The Mari tablets do mention Haran and Nahor. Haran was the grandfather of Abraham and Nahor was Abraham's brother.
Other tablets (while still being debated) are very similar to names mentioned in the Bible. At the close of the eighteenth century, the scholarly and religious worlds were startled by the discovery of Babylonian tablets naming Khedorla'omer, Ariokh, and Tidhal in a tale not unlike the biblical one. The tablets describe a war of wide-ranging magnitude, in which a king of Elam, Kudur-laghamar, led an alliance of rulers that included
one named Eri-aku (Ariokh)
and another named Tud-ghula (Tidhal)
This new information confirms the biblical tale by providing support of an independent Mesopotamian source. With justified excitement the Assyriologists agreed with interpretation of the cuneiform names.
Verifying not only of the veracity of the Bible and of the existence of Abraham, but also of an international event in which he had been involved!”
Historian Damien Mackey from the California Institute of Ancient Studies states: “That it is quite reckless to dismiss Abraham lightly as an historical figure should already be apparent from references to him and other patriarchs in the ancient Ebla documents. It should become even more apparent from evidence given from various ancient Mesopotamian king lists that show an intimate connection amongst (a) the descendants of Abraham (b) the first Assyrian kings and (c) the ancestors of Hammurabi.”
The Eblaites had close connections with the Hebrews, like themselves a Semitic people.
The tablets list, in the same order found in Genesis 14:2, the five Biblical "Cities of the Plain": Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Bela (or Zoar). Previously no evidence of these cities existed outside the Bible or Biblical tradition . Now it is apparent that they were trading partners of Ebla. ....”
Incidentally, these tablets use the term "Canaan.“ a name critics once said was not used at that time and was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible.
Josephus refers to Pagan Historians regarding Abraham
Berosus (250-350 B.C.) mentions our father Abram without naming him, when he says thus: "In the tenth generation after the Flood, there was among the Chaldeans a man righteous and great, and skillful in the celestial science."
But Hecatseus (550 B.C.) does more than barely mention him; for he composed, and left behind him, a book concerning him.
And Nicolaus of Damascus (13 A.D.) , in the fourth book of his History, says thus: "Abram reigned at Damascus, being a foreigner, who came with an army out of the land above Babylon, called the land of the Chaldeans: but, after a long time, he got him up, and removed from that country also, with his people, and went into the land then called the land of Canaan, but now the land of Judea, and this when his posterity were become a multitude; as to which posterity of his, we relate their history in another work. Now the name of Abram is even still famous in the country of Damascus; and there is shown a village named from him, The Habitation of Abram."One of the main indications of an anachronism (historical inaccuracy) in the Bible was thought to be that of the camel. The Book of Genesis reports that camels were mainstay beasts of burden and transportation already at the time of Abraham, in the 18th century BCE. Yet it was originally thought that camels were first domesticated in the Middle East no earlier than the 12th century BCE. This anachronism was a clear indication of the later writing of the Bible. Or so it was thought. All this changed with the turn of a shovel. Recent archaeological finds have clearly demonstrated that the camel was domesticated by the 18th century BCE. What was previously thought to be a knockout punch against the Bible, is now evidence supporting it.
I will skip Jacon and Joseph for now and actually go directly to Esau. Esau was also called Edom. Edom had three wives and a concubine. One of the wives of Edom(Esau) was Bozrah. The modern city of Buseirah preserves the name and location of ancient Bozrah, the ancient capital of the Edomites. His descendants are listed in Genesis 36 and 1st Chronicles 1. In the LXX, Job is also called "Jobab" and is named as the 5th from Abraham. This matches the Geneologies given. What a small world it turned out to be with all of the nearby countries named after the patriarches and their decendants. Uz and Buz were nephews of Abraham. Edom was in the land of Uz as stated in Lamentations 4:21. Job's so called friend Elihu was a decendant of Buz (a Buzite). Bildad was a Shuahite, Shua a son of Abraham by Keturah. Madiam (Madian/Midian) was another one.Another wife of Esau was Adah. She had a son named Eliphaz and he was the king of the Temanites. Eliphaz was also mentioned in Job and was probably his uncle.This "Jobab" was also more than likely the brother in law of Moses. Raguel was the grandfather of Jobab (Job) and was the father in law of Moses. Jethro is Aramaic and Hebrew for "His excenllency" which was a title and not his proper name although Joesphus states he was called by both (much like Pharoah and Ceaser). The Hebrew word used in Judges 4:11 is poorly translated into English. It means any male relative by marriage and this is indicated when Joban is called the son of Raguel in Numbers 10:29. The point being that the names of the cities also indicate a historical accuracy of the Bible.to be continued.......Edited by meforevidence, : No reason given.Edited by meforevidence, : No reason given.

Since The Book of Genesis makes exactly the same claim, and this is a thread about the reliability of the Bible, you will have evidence to support:Genesis 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust A living man, complete with emotions and intelligence came from dust, how crazy is that? Brian.

... you may want to back up your claims with sourced references (with some quotes )from credible works (or at least SOME work period , you havnt really sourced anything).For Ebla, there are many used books that can be bought for just a few $$$. The far-reaching early conclusions have been completely rejected.Of all the extradordinary claims , the only possible one that has held up is that perhaps 2 of the "cities of the plain" were mentioned in the tablets, and even that is a minority opinion.The "creation" text simply doesnt exist.Like most things, it was based on a very bad-translation.For the most radical conclusions (on 3rd hand reports) on Ebla in the early days, see Clifford Wilson.For the most measured (in the early days,but still proven wrong in time), see Kenneth Kitchen in his "The Bible in its World" from around the late 70s.You will also need to source every claim amde on other issues too.There is alot of exageration in Creationist claims about the similarity of worldwide flood myths in every culture.Plus a huge amount are based on oral tradition and may have been influenced by Christian missionaries.Im not saying that your claims are right or wrong, but simply repeating un-critical internet site claims doesnt proven anything.Nearly everything you said is a claim, and not based on any sourced material.The best you did was a reference to a section in Herodotus but even that would do better with an actual published work being quoted (and the title referenced).Plus it doesnt prove anything by itself.(Another note:also, I have been busy, but will try and cover some more Terminal-MBA archaeology this week.It just takes so darn long to type things, I havnt had the time)

Hi,I realise that you may be busy, but I would like an answer to how you can claim that life cannot come from non-living matter, yet you believe that Genesis is accurate, and it states that life did come from non-living matter.Brian.

Most of what I have written can be found just about anywhere just by doing the research or looking it up on the web, but here are a few references. I am sorry I am not able to place more at this moment. I am at work but want to respond with something.The Bible and History:Garden of Eden: http://www.cais-soas.com/News/1998-99/1999%20news.htm#GardenWhale in Egypt: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...050414_egyptwhale.htmlMulti-strata Trees: http://www.s8int.com/boneyard3.html
Page not found – Exchanged Life DiscipleshipThe Bone yards of Fossils, mammoths, etc.: http://www.s8int.com/boneyard1.html
"One recent discovery has rekindled the debate in spectacular fashion. In 1993 Russian scientists reported discovering mammoths that became extinct 3,700 years ago -- barely 1,700 years B.C. -- on Wrangel Island, 140 miles off the coast of eastern Sibera. This extends by more than 6,000 years the survival of a species we thought had vanished from the surface of the earth by the end of the Pleistocene. Mammoths are symbols of Quaternary periods and witnesses to the adventures of the great Paleolithic hunters. That they could have surived to be the contemporaries of thge pharoahs of Egypt puts the issue of their extinction in a new light." http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Mammoths-Extinctions-Rewilding-Environments/...
http://www.radiocarbon.org/Journal/v37n1/vartanyan.html
http://www.bibleprobe.com/creationism.htm
Mastodon at New York Museum of Natural History standing as if gasping for air: http://www.amnh.org/...Treasures/Warren_Mastodon/warren.htmlOld Kingdom; from California Institute of Ancient Studies: ForbiddenArcheology and the Bible: Page not found - aish.com
Archeology and the Bible 2: Biblical archeology  (Archaeology ) TruthnetDig the Bible - Tour of the Holy LandsIce and Land Bridges: Quote from Stephen Jay Gould
"For Antarctica and South America are almost joined today by a string of islands, and they were certainly connected by a land bridge at various times in the past (a minor lowering of sea level would produce such a land bridge today). "
The Validation of Continental Drift - Stephen Jay GouldLittle Ice Age: Little Ice Age - WikipediaExplorers walk from Alaska to Siberia on foot: BBC NEWS | UK | England | Humber | Epic explorer crosses frozen seaUgarit tablets: ForbiddenEbla: I stated there has been debate and also doubt the Ebla tablets mention the Biblical names of the people that once were thought to be mentioned in them, however, the word “Canaan” is mentioned and the customs of the time are mentioned just as they are in the laws of Ur Nammu. Instead of contradicting the Bible, they coincide with it. Also, skeptics once thought “Canaan” did not really exist at the time as stated in the Bible, but appeared centuries later. The Ebla tablets show differently and agree with the Bible.Mari Tablets do mention Haran and Nahor. abespeakAll Cultures began suddenly (this can be found pretty much anywhere but here is one site: http://www.s8int.com/index.htmlLiving Fossils refute evolution:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ea-animals/photo3.html
and
http://www.living-fossils.com/3_1.phpLiniage of Esau: Genesis 36, 1 Chronicles 1, and Job. The LXX version of Job reads at the end of the book:
“This man is described in the Syriac book as living in the land of Ausis, on the borders of Idumea and Arabia: and his name before was Jobab; and having taken an Arabian wife, he begot a son whose name was Ennon. And he himself was the son of his father Zare, one of the sons of Esau, and of his mother Bosorrha, so that he was the fifth from Abraam. And these were the kings who reigned in Edom, which country he also ruled over: first, Balac, the son of Beor, and the name of his city was Dennaba: but after Balac, Jobab, who is called Job, and after him Asom, who was governor out of the country of Thaeman: and after him Adad, the son of Barad, who destroyed Madiam in the plain of Moab; and the name of his city was Gethaim. And his friends who came to him were Eliphaz, of the children of Esau, king of the Thaemanites, Baldad sovereign the Sauchaeans, Sophar king of the Minaeans.”
One can just look at each and put that together.
Bozrah Capital of Edom: http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/jordan/buseirah/bu01.html
And: Edom - WikipediaSennecherib and Noah’s Ark: http://www.ancientworldfoundation.org/reasonsforcudi.htm
More on Noah’s Ark: Home
Herodotus and the Bible: Account Suspended
Nebuchadnezzer and the Tower of Babyl: http://www.earth-history.com/Clay-tablets.htmEdited by meforevidence, : No reason given.Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Shortened display form of long URL, to restore page width to normal.

Sicne you cover a load of subjects - and all of them badly I think that you should split them up. The absurd idea that so-called lving fossils disprove evolution for instance belongs in a different thread.As for the idea that all civilisations appear at once - it is completely false. There's a lot of archaeology investigating pre-Dynastic Egypt. There's the megalithic temples in Malta, 1000 years older than the pyramids, or the even older Catal Huyuk in Turkey. It doesn't matter how many websites say otherwise, it's the evidence that matters.

Any luck with the evidence of living matter coming from dust?Brian.

Welcome, MFE. Come clean. You`re actually a skeptic playing DA, aren`t you? A satire? Dumping a load on the principle something might make it through? Most of this falls into our PRATT corner (see archives). Narrow it to one at a time and we can educate you.

Just one thing in the bible?
ummm I will give it my best shot ok?This is is going on now today to me and others
for what we believe in.33 "Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated."And it will continue for ages to come.Zcoder....

The second you used s8int.com as a source, to me you have lost all credibility, s8int.com is absurd site that is 100% wrongthe fact is what you are showing is that the authors of the bible wrote things down that were facts, things about their culture and what places existed or at one point did exist, this shows nothing, just because the bible says that a place existed doesn't mean the events the bible said did happen did.i mean i could say that troy existed so the trojan war happened exactly as homer wrote it, which would be absurd.also revised chronology is wrong, rohl can't explain how everything fits together without changing names, places and events to wedge his chronology into the right hole
i mean come on, he has to claim "they used a nickname!" for leaders from the time to make it workmost of this is either wrong, factually or honestly, or flat out begging the question

I invoke Poe's law, theres no smilely face on the end so i can't figure out if he's joking or not

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"no intelligent agent who is strictly physical could have presided over the origin of the universe or the origin of life." - William Dembski

first I need to explain that god did not mean the bible to teach science.
as that would have lead people astray from the message the book was
written for.Plus I must ask you if you understand this phrase? "dust to dust ash's to ash's"If you know what that phrase means, then you can see that the one you
pointed out was. it's away to be honest, yet without talking over
their heads. as we are from the ground, evolution says so too.
but in more modern term.The bible was meant to spread a message, it is not "The Holy Science Bible"Zcoder....

Since I am short on time, here are just a few sites that will verify history and archeology with the Bible.
1. http://formerthings.com/hezekiah.htm
2. Page not found - aish.com
3. Biblical archeology  (Archaeology ) Truthnet
4. http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htmand if you really want to get deep, There is the California Institute of Ancient Studies at: Forbidden and go to their submenu.Also, here are a few more through the Assyrian, Babylonian and Persian/Greek Empire: http://www.geocities.com/bkitc/BabylonLesson.doc
This does not include an extensive research I have done on Egypt which is also mentioned in Isaiah. I do intend to put more of my own extensive research online but the problem is not finding it. The problem is there is so much evidence, that it is difficult finding the time to place it on here for now.Take care and I am looking forward to corresponding more.bk

I agree with you in that there are many absurd things on s8int.combut there are a few valid things as well. What I pointed out is not denied by even the toughest skeptics. The multi level strata trees do exist all over the world. The only disagreement is how it happened. Right now, Evolutionists can not explain them and a million years together. They also can not explain the numerous bone beds found all over the world with fossils from different environments (Bone Bed Discovered In Florida
and other sites that are not even creationist sites: http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/vertpaleo/2007_dig.htm The problem is that you simply deny these things without even considering the evidence. You say a whole site is 100% wrong and do not even focus on the point that was made on the site which is supported by facts. When you respond, please use counter evidence instead of personal jargon. In court, that approach would not stand. I do understand I also need to work on that more. I have it but did not manage to provide it when I first wrote. I did however reply with at least references and evidence. Edited by meforevidence, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning