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Author Topic:   Paul of Tarsus - the first Christian?
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 211 of 219 (310553)
05-09-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by jaywill
05-09-2006 1:13 PM


Re: And Your Point Would Be ...?
What teachings of Paul do you feel are misunderstood from a lack of understanding of the teaching of Jesus?
Jay, you should just read his last few exchanges with me in this thread. That ought to cover it, I'd say. Try especially post 197.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by jaywill, posted 05-09-2006 1:13 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 212 of 219 (310642)
05-09-2006 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Legend
05-06-2006 1:07 AM


Re: Paul, sin and righteousness
Yes and that's exactly my point, which I'm re-iterating above! Paul says that no deeds, by themselves, will gain you justification, righteousness comes only through faith in Jesus Christ. And what faith is that ? It's faith in the redemptive death of Jesus. This is made clear in Gal 2:21 and Rom 3:23-26, amongst others.
This is an incomplete appreciation of Paul's teaching which is every bit as full as that of Christ who appointed him an apostle.
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit" (Rom. 8:4)
Here Paul speaks not of initial justification by faith but daily, step by step walk according to the regenerated human spirit mingled with the indwelling Holy Spirit - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17). Paul is still concerned that the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled. The indwelling Holy Spirit empowers the justified to grow into a daily life which fulfills the righteous requirement of the law.
"Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; " Rom 3:25 (KJV)
This is the objective and positional righteousness. But Paul spends quite a bit of time teaching the subjective dispositional righteousness. This righteous behavior comes out spontaneously and unconsciously by the inward working of the Holy Spirit. If we allow this Spirit to grow our daily walk in the regenerated spirit will spontaneously manifest subjective righteous living.
This is exactly what Christ teaching is Matthew. And in John's gospel He tells His disciples that He is the vine and they are the branches which cannot do anything unless they abide in Him. Paul in different words teaches exactly the same. Our walk in the Holy Spirit will manifest subjective behavioral righteousness.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Paul says that we can be made righteous ONLY if we believe that Jesus died for our sins. Through Faith in His Blood !
This again refers to the positional and judicial righteous standing before God. Paul develops extensively the dispositional righteous living which results in maturity in the growth of the divine life.
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 14:17)
This verse is about the daily behavior living in the new testament church life. This community is filled with righteous living in the subjective experience of the believers and thus produces the kingdom of God. There is no descrepency between Christ's teaching in Matthew and Paul's teaching in Romans. The dichotomy is a concoction of Legend's imagination.
Faith in what Jesus said and did ? Paul mentions nothing about that even when it would be in his interest to do so. When Paul talks about faith in Jesus it's about faith in Him as a redemptive sacrifice, as the Paschal lamb. Paul doesn't expect his audience to believe in loving your neighbour and turning the other cheek, he expects them to believe that Jesus is someone:
I don't get the impression that Legend has read the New Testament. I get the impression that Legend has read some skeptical books ABOUT the New Testament.
Christ speaks of abiding in Him as a living Person: "I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)
We cannot take just Jesus's words and expect to produce fruit for God. We must abide in Jesus Himself so that the divine life in Him flows out also into us. This is like the flow of the life juice in the vine reaching out into the branches. Cut off from the vine, the branches can do nothing.
Paul echoes the same thought. Firstly He tells us that Christ is the life giving Spirit - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). He also tells us that this life giving Spirit Who is Christ comes to be united and mingled with the regenerated spirit of the believer - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17). He also tells us that the Lord Jesus Himself is with the regenerated human spirit of the believers - "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Tim. 4:22). Since the Lord is with the regenerated innermost spirit of the believer, the grace of the Lord is also with his spirit - "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Phil. 4:23)
Those who are born again and justified by faith are not to struggle and strain in their own endevour to please God. They are to walk by the Spirit which is united with their spirit - [b]"But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).
Those who walk by the Spirit will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. And those who walk by the Spirit will fulfill the righteous requirement of the law - "That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the spirit" (Rom. 8:4)
I could go on and on. But Paul gives tremendous amount of time not only to positional justification through Christ redemptive death, but to subjective dispositional rightous behavior through walking by the indwelling life giving Spirit of Christ. This is the abiding in the vine that the branches may bear fruit of John's gospel.
No one who is not ignorant can charge Paul with only giving attention to positional righteousness in an objective way. We are reconciled through the death of His Son. And we are "MUCH MORE" saved in His indwelling divine life -
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, MUCH MORE we will be saved IN HIS LIFE, having been reconciled" (Rom. 5:10)
Reconciliation has taken place for these believers, in the past. Now having been justified, having been reconciled to God through Christ's death, MUCH MORE there is the saving in His resurrection life, which is crucial to God's eternal purpose. This is the daily salvation from sinful behaviors. This is the much more salvation on a moment by moment basis which causes the believer to spontaneously manifest righteous acts and deeds even unconsciously, as a by-product and without strain.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-09-2006 11:37 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 05-09-2006 11:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Legend, posted 05-06-2006 1:07 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Legend, posted 05-10-2006 7:39 PM jaywill has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 213 of 219 (310861)
05-10-2006 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by jaywill
05-09-2006 11:36 PM


Re: Paul, sin and righteousness
jaywill,
had you read any previous posts you would have seen that I'm comparing the synoptics message to Paul's teachings. Therefore, all your quoting of John is very nice but besides the point.
jaywill writes:
This is an incomplete appreciation of Paul's teaching which is every bit as full as that of Christ who appointed him an apostle.
really ?! when did Jesus do that?
jaywill writes:
This is the objective and positional righteousness. But Paul spends quite a bit of time teaching the subjective dispositional righteousness. This righteous behavior comes out spontaneously and unconsciously by the inward working of the Holy Spirit. If we allow this Spirit to grow our daily walk in the regenerated spirit will spontaneously manifest subjective righteous living
I always thought that Paul, or at least the people who interpreted Paul's teachings, sounded a lot like TV evangelists. You know the ones: a lot of airy-fairy babble, appeal to emotion and the sound-spiritual-by-using-big-words factor. You sound exactly like that here.
I mean, WTF does that mean :
quote:
If we allow this Spirit to grow our daily walk in the regenerated spirit will spontaneously manifest subjective righteous living
no, seriously, what does that mean ? and if it means anything how does it tie in with what Jesus says and does in the synoptics ?
I've heard of spontaneous combustion but 'spontaneous subjective righteous living' is a new one to me.
We have objective and positional righteousness, we have subjective dispositional righteousness, what else? unilateral righteousness perhaps ? what about objective trapezoidal righteousness ?
what do the earliest recordings of Jesus say of his opinion on subjective dispositional righteousness?
they say that Jesus told people to love God, love their neighbour and they will gain eternal life(Mark 10, Matt 19, Luke 10)
Jesus also said that he alone is the teacher (Matt 23:8).
It's as simple as that.
(jar, I hope you haven't got the copyright to this)

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 05-09-2006 11:36 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by jaywill, posted 05-15-2006 1:57 PM Legend has not replied
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 05-15-2006 10:11 PM Legend has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 214 of 219 (312018)
05-15-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Legend
05-10-2006 7:39 PM


Re: Paul, sin and righteousness
Legend,
had you read any previous posts you would have seen that I'm comparing the synoptics message to Paul's teachings. Therefore, all your quoting of John is very nice but besides the point.
Perhaps I didn't get your emphasis on the synoptics. But it doesn't matter to establish that Paul was not the first Christian. He was not. I can't see how restricting the comparison between the Pauline letters with Acts and the synoptic gospels will help to establish Paul was the first Christian.
And why exclude John from the comparison anyway? Do you want to put the synoptics on one side and John and Paul on an opposing team? So I quoted John's gospel? To establish that Paul was the first Christian why is it necessary for you to exclude John's gospel from a comparison to the teaching from Paul?
really ?! when did Jesus do that?
Well, one can always say that he doesn't believe that Christ resurrected. And one can always say that he doesn't beleive that Christ continued to minister through the apostles.
I think that this question arises from your unbelief that Paul was a genuine apostle of Christ. I have no doubt at all that Paul was an apostle of Christ chosen by Him and sent by Him.
As to "when?" Paul was seperated from his mother's womb.
"But when it pleased God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me that I might announce HIm as the gospel among the Gentiles ..." (Galatians 1:15,16)
I believe that God seperated Paul unto this apostleship from birth. And of course I believe that God was in Christ and that Christ is God incarnate.
I always thought that Paul, or at least the people who interpreted Paul's teachings, sounded a lot like TV evangelists. You know the ones: a lot of airy-fairy babble, appeal to emotion and the sound-spiritual-by-using-big-words factor. You sound exactly like that here.
I mean, WTF does that mean :
And you sound like someone who goes to watch TV to get his "in depth" understanding of Christian theology. You might try taking the time to read through the New Testament in a prayerful way.
I go to the Bible to derive my understanding of it. I don't like to substitute in depth study of Exodus with watching "The Ten Commandments." And I don't derive all my understanding of the gospel of Christ by tuning into Reverend Ick or any number of other religious entertainers.
Basically I think you're setting up a strawman dispute. It should be pretty easy to knock it down. Go ahead.
no, seriously,
Okay, no seriously. Want to give it another try? I'm open to discussion.
what does that mean ? and if it means anything how does it tie in with what Jesus says and does in the synoptics ?
Do you mean what do I mean by objective verses subjective righteousness?
I've heard of spontaneous combustion but 'spontaneous subjective righteous living' is a new one to me.
The New Testament is about Christ, the resurrected Lord and Savior, living within the believers. Since you don't like John, I will illustrate this point from the synoptics:
Matthew says that Jesus is "Emmanual ... God with us." (Matt. 1:23). But at the end of Matthew's gospel is doesn't record Jesus going away at all. It speaks of no ascension or departure of "Emmanuel - God with us." Rather the resurrected Christ says - "And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt.28:20)
He continues to be "God with us,"the believers, the disciples, until consummation of the age. The resurrected Christ is still with us. He is still God with us.
Now you may object that that doesn't say that Christ is in the disciples. And you want to keep John's gospel out of the discussion for some strange reason which may suppose argues in your favor that Paul was the first Christian.
But these compliants won't negate that "God with us" in Matthew is the Christ Who comes into His disciples to be their inward empowering to live righteously.
In Luke 21:15 Jesus tells His disciples that He will give them a mouth to answer their persecutors. So they need no be concerned how they are to answer. For spontaneously He will give them an answer as to how they should speak:
"Settle it therefore in your hearts not to take thought beforehand how to reply in defense. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all those opposing you will not be able to resist or refute"
This surely shows that "Emmanuel - God with ..." the disciples until the end of the age, will also impart wisdom to them and furnish them with spontaneous reactions which will be adaquate for them to make a good Christian testimony. It is good to consult also the gospel of John to get clarity on these things. That is if one truly wants to know what the New Testament teaches.
In the parallel passage in Mark 13:11 we see that Jesus gives the disciples this wisdom and this mouth by means of the activity of the Holy Spirit - "but whatever is given to you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who are speaking, but the Holy Spirit."
You see Legend? This is all quite subjective and spontaneous. The Holy Spirit gives wisdom to the disciples and the Holy Spirit gives them their reaction to persecution. How much more the Holy Spirit will empower the disciples to live as Christ taught by means of the God Who is with them even to the consummation of the age.
So the synoptics teach of Christ resurrested, Christ with the disciples, Christ supplying them wisdom and a mouth to react in difficult situations. This would amount to a spontaneous manifestation of subjective righteousness flowing out of the present Emmanuel - God with us.
I will have to continue latter.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Legend, posted 05-10-2006 7:39 PM Legend has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 215 of 219 (312223)
05-15-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Legend
05-10-2006 7:39 PM


Re: Paul, sin and righteousness
Legend,
We have objective and positional righteousness,
For an example of positional righteousness from the synoptic gospels I would point out to you Christ instituting the new covenant in His blood:
"And He took a cup and gave thanks, and He gave it to them, saying, Drink of it, all of you, For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt. 26:27,28)
And the companion passage in Luke 22:19,20:
"And He took a loaf and gave thanks, and He broke it and gave it to them, saying, This is My body which is being given for you; do this in rememberance of Me. And similiarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood, which is being poured out for you."
These passages show that Christ allowed His body to be broken and His blood to be poured out on the cross, for the forgiveness of our sins. That means our sins are dealt with through His death on our behalf to render us righteous before God. By accepting Him as our Lord and Savior His blood cleanses us from our sins and places us in a righteous standing before God.
Dispositionally in our personality we may not have changed except that we have humbled our selves to realize that the blood of Jesus Christ has been poured out on our behalf to erase the record of transgressions before God. Believing in Christ we are then in a righteous position.
Now simply being forgiven is wonderful. But this alone does not meet the need of "the kingdom of the heavens." We need to have our daily living be a kingdom of God living under His governmental administration. There is a need for dispositional righteousness in our character. Here is one place we see Christ's call for us to enter into His kingdom dispositionally as well as positionally:
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:20)
We must have Christ wrought upon our personality until our righteous behavior surpasses that of the superficial and hypocritical scribes and Pharisees. God looks for a genuine righteousness flowing our of our characters which is not a play acting or religious performance. In fact the constituents of the kingdom of the heavens must have the highest level of morality on the earth.
So you see His blood deals with the record of our sins to positional us in a objective righteous standing before God.
And His presence must wrought into our beings a dispositional righteous living which results in the highest level of morality on the earth. The synoptic gospels reveal both aspects of God's new testament economy.
It is also helpful to get clarity on both of these two aspects of salvation through the writings of John and the epistles of Paul.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Legend, posted 05-10-2006 7:39 PM Legend has not replied

  
chapalot
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 219 (360772)
11-02-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by arachnophilia
04-20-2005 8:13 PM


You are correct.
Let us begin with a short discussion of the historical beliefs and attitudes that led to the atonement doctrine. The early Hebrews believed that "without the shedding of blood there could be no remission of sin." (Heb. 9:22) They accepted the primitive idea that God could not be appeased except through blood sacrifice. Moses made a distinct advance in that he forbade human sacrifice and substituted instead the ceremonial sacrifice of animals.
This concept of ceremonial sacrifice was preserved, in principle, by the apostle Paul as the doctrine of atonement for sin through the sacrificial death of Jesus. Paul, however, went beyond Moses and the Jewish teachers in that he expounded theories of original sin, hereditary guilt, and innate evil. Paul was responsible for bringing many of Jesus' teachings to the world. But he also injected a number of his own ideas which were not taught by Jesus, and indeed, were at variance with the teachings of his Master.
Scholars nowI emphasize that human teachers such as Paul were not only fallible but made a serious blunder in promoting the atonement doctrine. They believe we need to make a fundamental distinction between the teachings of Jesus and those of the human followers of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of God as well as the Son of Man and his life and teachings are a divine revelation. Therefore, I believe is to look to Jesus first, and judge all other teachings by their harmony with his life and teachings.Paul was also ad odds with the twelve diciples, in fact the Essenes, among many others considered him to be the first corrupter of the teachings of Jesus Crist. You are correct when you say Paul "invented Christianity."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by arachnophilia, posted 04-20-2005 8:13 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by iano, posted 11-02-2006 11:35 AM chapalot has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 217 of 219 (360779)
11-02-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by chapalot
11-02-2006 11:19 AM


Re: You are correct.
Paul was also at odds with the twelve disciples, in fact the Essenes, among many others considered him to be the first corrupter of the teachings of Jesus Crist. You are correct when you say Paul "invented Christianity."
At least one apostle openly doesn't agree with you.
quote:
2 Peter 3: 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
The use of the term "the other scriptures" is interesting. Apostlic blessing that the writings of Paul are scripture. I wonder had the Essenes any apostolic blessings on their writings?
Or are we to rely on the non-scriptural musings of men.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by chapalot, posted 11-02-2006 11:19 AM chapalot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Equinox, posted 11-02-2006 12:16 PM iano has not replied

  
Equinox
Member (Idle past 5142 days)
Posts: 329
From: Michigan
Joined: 08-18-2006


Message 218 of 219 (360798)
11-02-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by iano
11-02-2006 11:35 AM


Re: You are correct.
iano wrote:
quote:
At least one apostle openly doesn't agree with you.
2pet is widely acknowledged to be a forgery, not written by peter. Maybe the author of 2pet was the 14th apostle, (what's his name, from dogma?).
quote:
Apostlic blessing that the writings of Paul are scripture. I wonder had the Essenes any apostolic blessings on their writings?
If they had been Christian, they would have. Most of the early Christianities claimed not just apostolic blessings, but that their christianity was the true teachings of Jesus passed on through apostolic succession. The early Catholics did, and you quoted their scripture. The Gnostics did, and so did the Ebionites. The Essenes weren't Christian - your statement is like "I wonder if moses had been blessed by the pope?".
quote:
Or are we to rely on the non-scriptural musings of men.
Indeed. Each of the early Christian churches called the scriptures of the others "heresy" and things just written by men. Only their own scriptures (for each type of Christianity) were "real" scripture.

-Equinox
_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by iano, posted 11-02-2006 11:35 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by chapalot, posted 11-02-2006 1:53 PM Equinox has not replied

  
chapalot
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 219 (360838)
11-02-2006 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Equinox
11-02-2006 12:16 PM


Re: You are correct.
Jesus Crist was an Essene and with regard to the Pauline version of Cristianity, Perhaps you were right..he was not a Cristian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Equinox, posted 11-02-2006 12:16 PM Equinox has not replied

  
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