Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree)

Hello Tokyojim,While I cannot speak for Jim, I may be able to provide you with a preview of what will be required. Yours is not an original assertion and if you look through the archives, you will probably find threads that deal with this conjecture quite thoroughly.The basic weakness of your contention is that there seems to be a serious lack of any contemporary attestation that any of the alleged actual witnesses to the resurrection were martyred.I think, then, your challenge will be to provide contemporary references regarding specific witness/martyrs to be discussed on a case by case basis.Namaste'Amlodhi[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 12-26-2003]

Hi Amlodhi,As the original poster of this thread, I just wanted to add that this is exactly what I was looking for. In case Tokyojim hasn't read the entire thread, here is the original post concerning the martyrdom of the apostles...http://EvC Forum: Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree) -->EvC Forum: Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree)------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Fine, I was just responding to the argument that all religions have martyrs so the disciples of Jesus, if they were martyred are nothing special. There is a difference as I pointed out in my post.I don't have that evidence for you, but as I said in my first post, even if they were not martyred, their lives were greatly changed by something. Scripture says it was seeing the resurrected Savior. They gained nothing by going throughout the world on difficult, tiring, and dangerous missionary journies to spread lies. All they got for their hard work was a bit of persecution. That alone is still strong evidence. I think it would have been virtually for 12 disciples and the other early believers to keep such a lie a secret. No one ever gave in under stress of persecution? Come on.Well, that's my quick reply.Regards,TJ

I'm so excited to know that you're reading the Bible, thank your for inspiring me to take a closer look at the scriptures. I read them and the still all say the same thing however upon closer examination you'll see that they are 2 accounts being told here, all are correct but one could assume that they all discount one another. The first 2 are relating the same incident almost identically, however Matt. chose to only mention 2 of the women present. Mark tells us that there were 3 (excuse me, I'm fixen to shout about now, GLORY!) Luke confirms that by informing us that Joanna was also present as were others.
Now the scripture in Mark actually reads that she told no man but does say that she told the apostles.
Luke and John are relating the visit after the women had run and told them that's why the angels are inside at this point if you recall Peter out ran them to see for himself. The book of John further details this when he describes the garments already being folded. Now the others have left and Mary the mother of Jesus not Mary Magdalene stayed wondering where Jesus could be then He the risen Lord spoke to her. Then Mary Magdalene came and she saw Jesus and went and shared it with the others.
As for your 2nd question I reserve judgement on the deaths not recorded in the bible because those accounts are not in the bible, which is the only infallible word, the truth for which these and others died for.
In closing 2 Tim. 2:15 says "study to show yourself approved unto God, rightly dividing the Word of truth.

---

if you're following someone, make sure you know where they're going

Is this not equally strong evidence for the numerous Gnostic and Jewish sects purged by the victors of early Christian sectarian conflict?Is it not even stronger evidence for Judaism, repeatedly villified and viciously attacked by state sponsored Christianity?Certainly Islamic martyrdom should be counted as "strong evidence".And what of Maghi (Mela Muktsar) and Guru Arjan Dev Ji, exemplars of Sikh martyrdom? Is this not likewise "strong evidence"?And surely there exists no finer meld of inspiring miracle and martyrdom than the Martyrdom of the Bb. How do we weigh this "strong evidence" of the Baha`i faith?Martyrdom is the province of sociology and psychology. Religious martyrdom is simply one manifestation of the incessant and pervasive willingness of untold numbers to die for a cause. The martyrdom of Polycarp no more validates Christanity than does the martyrdom of Al Qaeda pilots validate Islam.

Go back and read post #43 on this site. There is a big difference in the martyrdom of the disciples and all these other martyrs. In short the disciples were eye witnesses and to a man died for something they were in a unique position to know about. That's different than you or me or the pilots of 911. We all have to have faith and I'm sure their faith is just as strong as ours. THe appostles didn't have to go on faith. They knew because they were eyewitnesses. That's the difference. On my post #43 I have lots of quotes from the Bible that doesn't tell of their martyrdom but it does tell of their changed lives and how they lived poor and persecuted lives.

The "big difference" is that you believe legends for which there is no evidence, no substantiation. Nothing more.

Well, let's look at this. Luke wasn't an eye-witness, even according to Literalists. Mark was possibly an eye-witness, according to fundamentalists, but even that's not agreed on. I don't think there's anything in the Bible saying Mark was an eye-witness of the crucifixion or the resurrection. Even if he was an eye-witness of the crucifixion, none of the stories you mentioned includes him.That taken care of, let me point out that your listing in post #1 is not accurate. Maybe you left a line out. It sounds like you said Luke said that the two men told the eleven, but Luke says that they told "women" that he was raised, and then the women told the eleven, and then it identifies the women.The reason for mentioning that is that the synoptics agree that women went to the tomb, were told by angels or Jesus himself that he was raised, and then they told the apostles. Assuming Matthew wrote the Gospel named after him and was an eye-witness of Jesus, then he still heard about the resurrection secondhand from women.So, concerning the synoptic Gospels, I can't say it's amazing that three witnesses would tell such different stories. None of them were at the tomb, only one of them definitely saw Jesus risen, and one of them definitely didn't. I think it's plenty consistent that they all say that women saw him, then they told the apostles, and later the apostles all saw him.The final Gospel is John's. Again, even by fundamentalist standards it was written at least near sixty years after the resurrection. This Gospel differs from the others on a significant detail, that Peter and the disciple Jesus loved (John by fundamentalist standards) went to the empty tomb and that Mary didn't see Jesus till the second trip. Who's to say the others, especially with only Matthew being an eye-witness, and he not being one that ran to the tomb, didn't mention that trip, because Peter and John didn't see Jesus on the trip. In a sense, it's an insignificant detail.Anyway, I don't think requiring that they remember "who told me, where and when I saw the proof, and who I was with at the time" is necessary in this case. Only Matthew and John were told, and both of them give agreeing accounts of who they were with when they were told and when he appeared to them.

If you read the post on #43 I included all the places in the Bible which corroberate their stories. I also believe that history shows the disciples started the early church so I would not place these stories in the realm of legends with no evidence.

MOST SCHOLARS BELIEVE THAT THE KORAN SPOKE OF RARE ALBINO RAISINS....NOT VIRGINS. IF SO:Mohammed Atta opened his eyes. There was a gentle breeze that cooled his skin. In front of him a fuzzy globe of light hung in the air. In the background, rows of grapes receded toward infinity.The fuzzy globe made a throat clearing sound ... as if prefatory to something ominous."I suppose you're here based on Koran 1.2 ... the ... ah ... 'virgin' version?"Atta threw himself flat against what he hoped was God's floor."There is only one God and Mohammed is his prophet ...""Yes ... yes ... yes ... we know that ... but, getting back to this ... ah ... older ... virgin version." God paused to see if Atta had any idea of where this was going.But an ignorant Mohammed Atta, groveling as deep as he could, wished there was even a holy hem below which he could slither still more ... to ingratiate himself still further ... to make himself more worthy of the rewarding maidens which in his heart he knew he richly deserved."Oh Lord, Thy word speaks of 72 virgins for martyrdom ... but my little spot in your paradise only wants half a hundred ... nice young pretty ones, mind you."God sighed and reached for something on a shelf.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The shriek was long and piercing ... even to God's ears. Mohammed Atta slapped the box of Sun Maid Raisins from God's hand ... sending the little albino wrinkled things scattering all across God's floor.Then the sobs began. He thought of that little piece of 'snatch' in that far away Florida motel room ... and his sobs grew greater.

What does this have to do with anything being discussed here?

The topic is: All religions have martyrs - so what?!The concept (being a martyr) is silly at best and horrible at worst (9/11)!

Martyrs blowing themselves up and flying planes into buildings I would agree with. But the Christian martyrs are, and have been, killed for simply pracitcing their beliefs. I don't recall any homicide bombings being carried out by a Christian.

That's a bit like pointing to all the places in The Wizard of Oz that corroborates the Wicked Witch of the West. Rather than another laundry list, why not submit for discussion the single piece of evidence that you find most probative? What history, specifically?

They usually don't have the decency to stand by their bombs when they go off. Tim McVeigh was a Christian, for instance. Plus I gather you haven't been near any abortion clinics in the past two decades. Plenty of Christian bombs there...