Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Here is Another "What If" Scenario:
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 36 (81120)
01-27-2004 12:39 PM


Did you ever notice the basic Plot Twists which many Christians have extrapolated from the Bible? For example:
Messiah comes the first time. Religious people miss the interpretation, while "unchurched" folk see the light.
Would it not be amazing( and likely) that when Jesus returns the second time, a similar thing will occur. The church folks and the literal scriptural theologians will be blind to the event, whereas the (shudder) atheists and run of the mill sports fans and non religious folks will spot the Messiah and embrace Him first. Again.
Is this a plausible scenario?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Blank lines and other format tweeks.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 12:51 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 8:25 PM Phat has replied
 Message 14 by kbertsche, posted 05-16-2009 1:09 PM Phat has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 2 of 36 (81126)
01-27-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-27-2004 12:39 PM


heheh... ya sure
I mean, that's all I need, proof. If I see Jesus coming down on a cloud with a host of angels, you can count me as converted.
I also wouldn't be surprised if all the conservative christians are so blinded by their dogma that they would not belive it.
I had a teacher once back in christian school, he said if Jesus came back, theid probably book him on the Geraldo Show. Today it would be Jerry springer I suppose.
hehe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 12:39 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by berberry, posted 02-08-2004 1:06 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-21-2009 12:33 AM Yaro has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 36 (81252)
01-27-2004 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-27-2004 12:39 PM


Is this a plausible scenario?
Did you ever read Dostoyevski's "The Brothers Karamazov"?
There's a rather famous scene in the middle where a priest is sitting around and Jesus comes back, right in his room.
Basically what happens is that the priest has to prevent anybody from knowing that Jesus is back because the Church has too much invested in their own doctrine, not Jesus's.
Look it up. It's a lot like what you're talking about. (And classic books are usually about 2 dollars at Barnes and Noble.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 12:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-07-2004 3:06 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 36 (84296)
02-07-2004 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
01-27-2004 8:25 PM


Note to members
Crashfrog and Berberry are no longer with us, but I wanted to expound upon this old topic, if Percy and Moose let me sneak in the back door! Read on...
Edited by Phat, : clarification of mental process

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2004 8:25 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 05-13-2009 7:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 36 (84394)
02-08-2004 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Yaro
01-27-2004 12:51 PM


Jesus should be easy to spot
If the bible is inerrant, it'll be a miracle in itself if Jesus is able to speak with Geraldo or Jerry. You see, according to the Book of Revelation, when Jesus returns he'll have a big, two-edged sword sticking out of his mouth (there's a reference to this in Rev 1 and another in Rev 18 or 19). From this, would it be safe to presume that Jesus might have some difficulty speaking or keeping his identity secret?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Yaro, posted 01-27-2004 12:51 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 36 (508416)
05-13-2009 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
02-07-2004 3:06 PM


Re: What if God came back incarnate as Jesus and nobody recognized Him?
I'm bringing this old topic of mine back for our current active members to comment on.
Let me update it and make it a bit more clear:
Lets assume that Jesus was a legitimate Messiah. The first big plot twist that allegedly occurred would be that the Jewish people missed the cue, while the unclean pagans and common folk all received the same spiritual zap that knocked Saul off his high horse and ushered in a zealous Paul to preach to the unclean masses. The organized religious folk missed the boat, yet the common people became fervent and "full of charisma." Organized religion soon follows, and the Roman Catholic and later Protestant churches become as religious as the Jews before them.
Would it not be amazing if when Jesus returns the second time, another Plot Twist will occur. The church folks and the literal scriptural theologians will be blind to the event, whereas the folks who are against organized religion or who have never been religious at all will accept the simple man with no hidden agenda and no product to sell. For conversations sake, assume that Jesus came back as an atheist, a Muslim, a Hindu, or perhaps just a common fellow with a message to love thy neighbor, avoid religion, and do your best?
Is this a plausible scenario?
Edited by Phat, : improved the topic direction
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-07-2004 3:06 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Huntard, posted 05-13-2009 9:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 8 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2009 11:28 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 9 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 05-13-2009 5:28 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 10 by Rahvin, posted 05-13-2009 6:51 PM Phat has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 7 of 36 (508424)
05-13-2009 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-13-2009 7:29 AM


Re: What if God came back incarnate as Jesus and nobody recognized Him?
Whether it's plausible or not I don't know, but it would sure be one of the greatest ironic things to ever happen, and I'd probably be lauching until eternity.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 05-13-2009 7:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 8 of 36 (508435)
05-13-2009 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-13-2009 7:29 AM


Re: What if God came back incarnate as Jesus and nobody recognized Him?
Hi Phat,
I will try to stay concise and not get into preach mode.
Phat writes:
Lets assume that Jesus was a legitimate Messiah. The first big plot twist that allegedly occurred would be that the Jewish people missed the cue, while the unclean pagans and common folk all received the same spiritual zap that knocked Saul off his high horse and ushered in a zealous Paul to preach to the unclean masses. The organized religious folk missed the boat, yet the common people became fervent and "full of charisma." Organized religion soon follows, and the Roman Catholic and later Protestant churches become as religious as the Jews before them.
Would it not be amazing if when Jesus returns the second time, another Plot Twist will occur. The church folks and the literal scriptural theologians will be blind to the event, whereas the folks who are against organized religion or who have never been religious at all will accept the simple man with no hidden agenda and no product to sell. For conversations sake, assume that Jesus came back as an atheist, a Muslim, a Hindu, or perhaps just a common fellow with a message to love thy neighbor, avoid religion, and do your best?
Is this a plausible scenario?
If we are going to assume Jesus was the legitimate Messiah it is not plausible.
If you accept that Jesus was Messiah you must then accept what He said:
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
In this passage Jesus was talking to the disciples. His Church, His Bride.
They will see Him and receive Him.
The people that received Jesus at the first event were people that knew the scriptures and was looking for Messiah to come. They were not wraped up in religious ceremony as were the religious leaders of the day.
But the pagans did not accept Jesus, regardless of what they were called.
Phat writes:
assume that Jesus came back as an atheist,
Could you please explain how Jesus who was God in the flesh could come back and not believe He exist's?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 05-13-2009 7:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 9 of 36 (508462)
05-13-2009 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-13-2009 7:29 AM


Some just never learn.
If Jesus were to return to earth he would just be crucified again, and for all the same reasons. However, this time the courts would insist he first be given a tetanus shot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 05-13-2009 7:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 10 of 36 (508467)
05-13-2009 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
05-13-2009 7:29 AM


Re: What if God came back incarnate as Jesus and nobody recognized Him?
Lets assume that Jesus was a legitimate Messiah. The first big plot twist that allegedly occurred would be that the Jewish people missed the cue, while the unclean pagans and common folk all received the same spiritual zap that knocked Saul off his high horse and ushered in a zealous Paul to preach to the unclean masses. The organized religious folk missed the boat, yet the common people became fervent and "full of charisma." Organized religion soon follows, and the Roman Catholic and later Protestant churches become as religious as the Jews before them.
Would it not be amazing if when Jesus returns the second time, another Plot Twist will occur. The church folks and the literal scriptural theologians will be blind to the event, whereas the folks who are against organized religion or who have never been religious at all will accept the simple man with no hidden agenda and no product to sell. For conversations sake, assume that Jesus came back as an atheist, a Muslim, a Hindu, or perhaps just a common fellow with a message to love thy neighbor, avoid religion, and do your best?
Is this a plausible scenario?
How can any of us possibly answer such a question? By what rules do we determine whether your scenario is "plausible?"
Like ICANT, I find it difficult to imagine that Jesus could be an atheist, unless you also speculate that Jesus does not know his own identity, or that Jesus intentionally deceives so as to avoid those you call the "religious" folk. Any other interpretation of such a scenario seems to be self-contradictory - a deity who does not believe deities exist.
This is essencially navel-gazing. We cannot assess the "plausibility" of your scenario because you aren't basing your scenario on anything beyond your own subjective interpretation of certain facets of the Bible. With so little to go on, nearly everything you can possibly conceive of is equally "plausible."
To me, from a realistic it would seem that a dead man returning to life after 2000 years is "implausible," since it violates everything we know about life and death. Regardless of what "form" you propose Jesus to occupy in his return, this remains a ratehr large issue.
From a theological perspective, it really depends on what you accept as canonical. If Revelations is held to be accurate (even in a poetic, symbolism-laden way such that crazy things like a sword issuing from your mouth can be reinterpreted as words that are as damaging as weapons), then it would seem that Jesus is supposed to return with great fanfare, trumpets, victory over evil, and throwing all of us nonbelievers into ICANT's lake of fire. That doesn't seem to match up to your subtle "SURPRISE!" scenario; so far as I know, Jesus is not M. Night Shyamalan (and thank goodness - aliens that are vulnerable to contact with water, which saturates the atmosphere?! On that note, can we crucify Shyamalan instead of Jesus this go around? His crimes against plot consistency and suspension of disbelief must carry the ultimate consequence!).
If Revelations is not accepted as canon, well...that takes out a lot of the details of Jesus return. At that point (and disregarding the "this generation shall not pass" portion, since we know that horse is already out of the barn door) basically any and all speculation is equal. Jesus could return as a dinosaur, and we could have Raptor Jesus. Or Jesus could come back as a giant robot, and we could have Optimus Christ. I still don't see how an atheist Jesus works without either a case of divine amnesia or serious holy mental issues (Batman!) implied by not beleiving in one's own existence.
I understand that you're coming fromt eh perspective of the "thief in the night," combined with the fact that Jesus really wasn't what the Jews were expecting in a Messiah (which to Jews still provides evidence that he wasn't the Messiah), and extrapolating that what we get next time won't be what we expect, either. But really, at this point any number of people have done what Jesus did (minus the miraculous stuff like rising from the dead, but then I doubt those things happened quite as written anyway). Many people preach what Jesus taught - some of them might even be close to what a historical Jesus intended. I expect that, "plot twist" or not, Jesus would try to carry the same basic message, meaning he's not exactly going to stand out at all, until he pulls something genuinely miraculous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 05-13-2009 7:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 36 (508617)
05-15-2009 5:25 AM


its already happened and they did miss it again

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 05-15-2009 9:13 AM Peg has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 12 of 36 (508638)
05-15-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
05-15-2009 5:25 AM


Maybe explain what you mean by this.
quote:
its already happened and they did miss it again

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 05-15-2009 5:25 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 05-16-2009 12:06 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 13 of 36 (508752)
05-16-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
05-15-2009 9:13 AM


Theodoric writes:
Maybe explain what you mean by this.
quote:its already happened and they did miss it again.
___________________
Acts 1:1 says "This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky."
The apostles had just watched Jesus ascend to heaven, he became invisible to them which is why the Angles said the above words.
So Jesus return was said to be invisible. Jesus also indicated that he would not be visible to mankind again with the words at John 14:19
"A little longer and the world will behold me no more."
But Jesus did speak to his diciples about his return in Matt 24:36 he said...."Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be"
interestingly Jesus did not know the day and hour himself, but he did know that people would take no note of his return...similar to the people in Noahs day who took no note of Noahs preaching until the flood actually came.
Messianic prophecies indicated the year of his arrival...perhaps its a topic for another thread... anyway, the year has been and gone and the evidence of his rulership is visible to those with faith as he said in...
quote:
John 14:18"I shall not leave YOU bereaved. I am coming to YOU. 19A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me...he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 05-15-2009 9:13 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Theodoric, posted 05-16-2009 1:32 PM Peg has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 14 of 36 (508826)
05-16-2009 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
01-27-2004 12:39 PM


quote:
Would it not be amazing( and likely) that when Jesus returns the second time, a similar thing will occur. The church folks and the literal scriptural theologians will be blind to the event, whereas the (shudder) atheists and run of the mill sports fans and non religious folks will spot the Messiah and embrace Him first. Again.
Is this a plausible scenario?
Joe Bayly once wrote a cute short story where Jesus came to Wheaton, IL (an unofficial headquarters for Evangelical Christianity), and no one recognized him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 01-27-2004 12:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 15 of 36 (508831)
05-16-2009 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Peg
05-16-2009 12:06 AM


quote:
Messianic prophecies indicated the year of his arrival...perhaps its a topic for another thread... anyway, the year has been and gone and the evidence of his rulership is visible to those with faith as he said in...
I am really tempted to ask you to start a thread on this, but I am fairly certain the evidence will be even less convincing than the evidence you and Jaywill have presented in the current biblical prophecy thread.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Peg, posted 05-16-2009 12:06 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Peg, posted 05-17-2009 2:04 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024