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Author Topic:   Why Literal?
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7831 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 46 of 120 (38028)
04-25-2003 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Coragyps
04-25-2003 1:23 PM


quote:
There are too many hits on Google to even guess what serious historians think.
For my part, in addition to your reasonable links, all I can add is that in 22 years of active research - 12 of those professionally - in medieval and early-modern Scottish history, I have never met a Scots historian who doubted for a moment that James VI and I was an active homosexual. There are numerous open references to his affairs in contemporary documents, and intelligence reports from ambassadors to the courts of France and Spain rarely failed to include the names of his latest lovers.
Actually your links provide sufficient detail for a reasonable researcher, but if you need more, I could dig out some primary source references when I next get back to my libary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Coragyps, posted 04-25-2003 1:23 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 47 of 120 (38032)
04-25-2003 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Mister Pamboli
04-25-2003 2:03 PM


The sexual preferences of some guy that's been dead for four centuries aren't very interesting to me - what's kind of fascinating, instead, is the huge number of apologetics sites that came up which vehemently deny that he was homosexual. It reminds me a little of the high school principal who wouldn't let the band play "We Are the Champions" by Queen, because their lead singer was openly gay, but presumably still let his English classes read Shakespeare. What friggin' difference does it make how any of them got their jollies?

This message is a reply to:
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Paul
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 120 (38034)
04-25-2003 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Karl
04-25-2003 10:35 AM


Hi Karl,
The Apostle Pauls goal here was not to say that it was inerrant, but that it was "inspired". However, others did say so.
Psalm 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.
The Word of God is:
1. Perfect (v7)
2. Sure (v7)
3. Right (v8)
4. Pure (v8)
5. Clean (v9)
6. Eternal (v9)
7. True (v9)
8. Altogether Righteous (v9)
9. To be desired more than riches (v10)
9. Sweeter than honey (v10)
Inerrant indeed.
James 1:22-25 also makes reference to the inerrancy and perfection of Gods Word
Respectfully, Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Karl, posted 04-25-2003 10:35 AM Karl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Coragyps, posted 04-25-2003 3:30 PM Paul has not replied
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 04-25-2003 4:05 PM Paul has replied
 Message 51 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-25-2003 4:06 PM Paul has not replied
 Message 57 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-25-2003 5:03 PM Paul has not replied
 Message 61 by Karl, posted 04-28-2003 4:34 AM Paul has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 49 of 120 (38036)
04-25-2003 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Paul
04-25-2003 3:03 PM


But again: If I write a book that claims itself inerrant, I don't really think that you would believe it was. The Qu'ran says it is "perfect" - do you agree with that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Paul, posted 04-25-2003 3:03 PM Paul has not replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1721 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 50 of 120 (38040)
04-25-2003 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Paul
04-25-2003 3:03 PM


Do you seriously just blindly accept the illogic of using a book to verify itself? Can you not see the circularity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Paul, posted 04-25-2003 3:03 PM Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 120 (38041)
04-25-2003 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Paul
04-25-2003 3:03 PM


quote:
The Word of God is:
9. Sweeter than honey (v10)
When I get home, I'm licking a Bible.
We'll see just how literal it is.
------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Paul, posted 04-25-2003 3:03 PM Paul has not replied

  
Paul
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 120 (38042)
04-25-2003 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by PaulK
04-25-2003 9:48 AM


And one last point - the fact that you choose to quote a Bible verse that is too vague to decide the issue (even assuming it to be correct and to refer to the Bible as we have it - neither of which is provable) does not speak well for your "30 years of research".
Hmm... I don't recall belittling you at all Paul. I'm surprised by this
Respectfully, Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by PaulK, posted 04-25-2003 9:48 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by PaulK, posted 04-25-2003 5:03 PM Paul has not replied

  
booboocruise
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 120 (38044)
04-25-2003 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Coragyps
04-25-2003 3:30 PM


First of all, you'll never find "...this book is perfect..." written in the Bible, because it was written over a period of 1500 years, by dozens of writers, and therefore was not a "Book" until centuries later. I agree with Paul on that the Bible is inspired and has no flaws--Matthew 4:4 says: "Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word of God..." **EVERY WORD!**
The Qu'ran may say it's perfect but it makes MUCH more obvious contradictions (the Bible makes no contradictions--it's the secular interpretations that says the Bible contradicts itself).
"Raise the Jews on your shoulders above all others..." (Qu'ran)
"Allah wages hate on all who don't love him..." (Qu'ran) According to the Qu'ran, Allah changed his ways from the time of Moses to the time of Mohammed. "But the LORD Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever..." (Hebrews 13:8). "God is Love, and he who abides in love abides in God..." (1 John 4:16). In the Qu'ran Allah is hailed with 99 different names, but "LOVE" is not one of them, as the LORD is in the Bible.
(Allah hates those who hate him, but the LORD loves all--whether he punishes them for their disobediance or welcomes them into Heaven for their salvation, the LORD loves all).
Great example, Paul...
In Christ,
Booboo

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by John, posted 04-25-2003 4:21 PM booboocruise has not replied
 Message 60 by Andya Primanda, posted 04-26-2003 2:32 AM booboocruise has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 120 (38048)
04-25-2003 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by booboocruise
04-25-2003 4:13 PM


quote:
the Bible makes no contradictions--it's the secular interpretations that says the Bible contradicts itself
I invite you to demonstrate this. There are plenty of topics in this forum which need a revival, perhaps your wit and wisdom is just the thing.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by booboocruise, posted 04-25-2003 4:13 PM booboocruise has not replied

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1721 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 120 (38056)
04-25-2003 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by John
04-25-2003 4:21 PM


In fact, booboo, maybe you'd like to start with some of the contradictions raised in this thread.
(Blanket generalizations of "You just don't understand" are pretty meaningless, if that's what you were thinking about doing...)

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Paul
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 120 (38057)
04-25-2003 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
04-25-2003 4:05 PM


Hi Crash,
The Bible doesn't verify "itself". As I pointed out, it's a divinely inspired co-authored book with over 40 participants, and "they", through inspiration and personal experience, all verify the same thing. That being, the reality of a living God and his divine Creation, as well as the purposes and plans for the Ages.
Paul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by crashfrog, posted 04-25-2003 4:05 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Mister Pamboli, posted 04-25-2003 5:07 PM Paul has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7831 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 57 of 120 (38061)
04-25-2003 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Paul
04-25-2003 3:03 PM


For someone supporting literalism, you don't appear to follow your own precepts.
The Psalm refers to (in translation) law, statutes, precepts, commands and ordinances. In Hebrew: Torah, 'eduth, piqquwd, Mitsvah, mishpat. All these words have a strong legalistic frame of reference which is clearly captured in the translation. It is the perfection of these to which the Psalm refers.
To extend these clear and unambiguous terms to cover the poetry, history, biography, prophecy and narrative found in the Bible is not to be a literalist at all, but to add to the Psalm's plain meaning. After all, when this very Psalm refers to "word" in a more general sense, it uses the terms 'emer or millah - see verses 3, 4 and 14.
BTW, the same is true of James 1:22-25 which makes reference to the perfection of "nomos" - meaning a regular ordinance or law.
Both of these passages indicate the belief that the "Law of God" is perfect, not the bundle of miscellaneous texts which comprise the canon of some of the western branches of Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17918
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.9


Message 58 of 120 (38062)
04-25-2003 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Paul
04-25-2003 4:10 PM


I am merely pointing out that your "evidence" is of no real value resting on a very questionable interpretation of a single verse.
Your use of a Psalm later is equally dubious.
The fact that you use them at all implies that your research came up without any solid evidence. After all, why use such weak evidence if you have better arguments ?
Now are you actually going to deal with my other points ? I still don't know if you really consider the Bible as being the literal written word of God or not. You have both affirmed and denied the claim so where you stand is quite unclear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Paul, posted 04-25-2003 4:10 PM Paul has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7831 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 59 of 120 (38065)
04-25-2003 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Paul
04-25-2003 4:52 PM


quote:
The Bible doesn't verify "itself". As I pointed out, it's a divinely inspired co-authored book with over 40 participants, and "they", through inspiration and personal experience, all verify the same thing.
Er ..... no. It's a co-authored book by participants who claim, with varying degrees of mutuality, inspiration.
The fact that you persistently turn to your chosen scripture for validation of your chosen scripture is really all that needs to be pointed out. Call it circularity, call it mutuality, call it consistency, but one thing is sure - you can't call it evidence!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Paul, posted 04-25-2003 4:52 PM Paul has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 120 (38103)
04-26-2003 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by booboocruise
04-25-2003 4:13 PM


verses please
BBC, you cite what Qur'anic verses? Please give exact chapter and verse, I will check them out.
Btw, Qur'an 1:1
Bi ism Illah ar-rahman ar-rahim
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, The Merciful.
al-Habib (arabic for 'Love') is not one of the 99 names.
Of course, many times here I have seen Christians misquoted the Qur'an...

This message is a reply to:
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