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Author Topic:   Criteria for prophesy
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 19 (173287)
01-03-2005 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tal
01-03-2005 3:16 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
did i say that? i said it was POSSIBLE. but since you wanna duke it out over this one, i'll play.
first of all, the major problem with the fulfillment of this prophesy is that it's not a prophesy. rather, it's a psalm, traditionally written by (or for?) david. so when it says "my clothes" it's talking about david's clothes.
here's the verse:
quote:
Psalm 22:17-19: (JPS)
Dogs surround me
    a pack of evil ones closes in one me,
    like lions they maul my hands and feet.
I take the count of all my bones
    while they look on a gloat.
They divide my clothes among themselves,
    casting lots for my garments.
it's important to note that the dogs/the pack of evil ones/lions are "the mighty ones of Bashan" (verse 13) -- jews from the tribe of Manasseh, NOT ROMANS.
now, when john references this passage, he misunderstands it. john has them divide up his clothing, and cast lots for the extra piece. the other three gospels have this as a single action -- the soldiers cast lots for ALL of the garments. john misread the poetic parallelism (like matthew did with the donkey -- why he didn't with the garment, i don't know) of the verse in psalsm. each pair of lines (or sometimes three) are talking about the same thing. psalms, and every other poem in the bible (and a lot of the prose) uses repition of concepts as a poetic device. the two lines in a pair always talk about the same thing, even if they use different pairings. numbers always increase by one, and sometimes opposites are paired... but it's a very standard style.
what the authors of the gospels are trying to do is reference this whole psalm and make it apply to jesus. it's even where "my god, my god why have you forsaken me?" comes from, this very psalm, which jesus probably had even read. the tone is very similar indeed, but the details don't fit.
[edit]
here's what another source says, with more nt contextual analysis:
quote:
If Jesus was scourged as part of the crucifixion process and then his clothes were once again placed on his wounded bloody body, why would the soldiers want to divide up these blood soaked garments? Indeed, if the scourging continued along the route to the crucifixion, Jesus' clothing would be nothing but bloody rags of no value to the soldiers.
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq058.html
[/edit]
so in short:
1. not prophesy to begin with.
2. not about jesus and romans.
3. misunderstood poetic style.
4. no real value to jesus's clothing.
still think there's much to that one? or do you wanna try another?
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 01-03-2005 04:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tal, posted 01-03-2005 3:16 AM Tal has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 17 of 19 (173356)
01-03-2005 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
01-03-2005 3:16 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
Arachnophilia
"tomorrow morning at 9:03 est, your toast will pop up burned beyond belief, your toaster explode, and leave a scorch mark on the counter in the exact geometric shape of the proof of the pythagorean theorem" and it actually happen
Certainly I could argue for freak occurence ,however,if we were to scale the event up from toaster to a tsunami occuring December 26 2004 to affect India,Sri LAnks ,Indonesia with much death and destruction then I would not flag it as coincidence, most especially if the prophesy was one of many of this accuracy.
Yes prophesy is best when vague for then it need merely be dependent on gullibilty of human beings which has always proved fruitful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 01-03-2005 3:16 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 01-04-2005 3:44 AM sidelined has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 19 (173666)
01-04-2005 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by sidelined
01-03-2005 8:56 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
Certainly I could argue for freak occurence ,however,if we were to scale the event up from toaster to a tsunami occuring December 26 2004 to affect India,Sri LAnks ,Indonesia with much death and destruction then I would not flag it as coincidence, most especially if the prophesy was one of many of this accuracy.
you sure? what if i kept revising the prophesy when it didn't come true every morning?
(and wow i should really double check my messages before i post them)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by sidelined, posted 01-03-2005 8:56 AM sidelined has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 19 (173684)
01-04-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tal
01-03-2005 3:16 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
Hi Tal
Romans casting lots for his clothes
How do you know that this actually happened?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tal, posted 01-03-2005 3:16 AM Tal has not replied

  
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