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Author Topic:   The Whole Jesus Thing
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 241 of 286 (159138)
11-13-2004 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by arachnophilia
11-13-2004 7:53 AM


Re: The Isaiahs must be turning in their graves....
quote:
i think it has more to do with a change in the religion.
A change which way?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by arachnophilia, posted 11-13-2004 7:53 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by arachnophilia, posted 11-14-2004 12:52 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 242 of 286 (159174)
11-13-2004 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by purpledawn
11-13-2004 7:27 AM


Re: The Isaiahs must be turning in their graves....
Purpledawn,
I was in no way arguing for or against God's opinion of burnt offerings. I was trying to point out that using single line, out-of-context quotes to support a position might be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2004 7:27 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 243 of 286 (159237)
11-13-2004 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Angel
11-12-2004 1:14 PM


Well,, you certainly are trying to dance round it. He either was a son of man, or he wasn't. The alledged status of 'son of god' is irrelavent.
And, there is no salvation in the son of man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Angel, posted 11-12-2004 1:14 PM Angel has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 244 of 286 (159240)
11-13-2004 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by jar
11-13-2004 9:14 AM


Re: Obligations
Of course, in the Jewish tradition, someone else can not take your sin upon you. While it was a tradition about the scape goat and the sacficial lamb for a while, another person can not take their sin upon you. The only way for atonment is to personally ask for forgiveness yourself.
The story of Abraham and Issac is taken by traditional Judaism to mean that God would never require a human sacrifice. That is what apparently the 'sin' offering is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by jar, posted 11-13-2004 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 11-13-2004 10:55 PM ramoss has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 245 of 286 (159244)
11-13-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by ramoss
11-13-2004 10:38 PM


So what is the issue?
The story of Abraham and Issac is taken by traditional Judaism to mean that God would never require a human sacrifice. That is what apparently the 'sin' offering is.
IMHO there are several layers to the "Jesus Thing".
First, GOD can forgive sin. Can we agree on that much?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ramoss, posted 11-13-2004 10:38 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 4:04 AM jar has replied
 Message 251 by lfen, posted 11-14-2004 1:41 PM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 246 of 286 (159262)
11-14-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by purpledawn
11-13-2004 5:44 PM


Re: The Isaiahs must be turning in their graves....
A change which way?
away from an antiquated system of sacrifice, and a blood-thirsty god, and towards a more abstract ideal. just my thought, anyways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by purpledawn, posted 11-13-2004 5:44 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 247 of 286 (159289)
11-14-2004 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
11-13-2004 10:55 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
Yes, and how does God forgive sin? What are the requirements for atonement? Well, let's first look at Isaiah 1:11-18

"11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the L-rd; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.
14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the L-rd"

And then, lets look at Miciah 6:7-8
"7 Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?'
8 It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the L-rd doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d.
And in Proverbs 21:3

"3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the L-rd than sacrifice."
In Horshea, it is claimed that prayer is better than sacrifice.
12:2-3

2 Return, O Israel, unto the L-rd thy G-d; for thou hast stumbled in thine iniquity.
3 Take with you words, and return unto the L-rd; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips."
So, in ancient Hebrew tradition, a blood sacrifice is not required for
atonement. And a human sacrifice is forbidden (the story of Issac and Abraham established that).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 11-13-2004 10:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by purpledawn, posted 11-14-2004 6:34 AM ramoss has replied
 Message 250 by jar, posted 11-14-2004 11:56 AM ramoss has replied
 Message 254 by arachnophilia, posted 11-14-2004 4:30 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 258 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-14-2004 10:44 PM ramoss has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 248 of 286 (159306)
11-14-2004 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
11-14-2004 4:04 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
quote:
how does God forgive sin? What are the requirements for atonement?
Jesus even said:
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 4:04 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 9:19 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 249 of 286 (159322)
11-14-2004 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by purpledawn
11-14-2004 6:34 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
Now, that sounds like a nice Jewish boy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by purpledawn, posted 11-14-2004 6:34 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 250 of 286 (159335)
11-14-2004 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
11-14-2004 4:04 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
So we both agree that GOD can forgive sins.
I believe that your information on the acts of atonement is a little premature. Can we put those off for a moment if I promise that we will return to that subject?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 4:04 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 2:15 PM jar has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 251 of 286 (159359)
11-14-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
11-13-2004 10:55 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
First, GOD can forgive sin. Can we agree on that much?
If we are limiting the discussion to Christian theology I'll accept that.
I use the eastern model of divinity and there it's not sin but karma and in that system at the level of samsara karma rules. What can happen is that divinity awakens from it's dream of an individual and at the level of nirvana karma doesn't apply at all. So I would say forgiveness of sins is a good thing but not the ultimate good. The chief grace is awakening and that is by grace and renders sin moot.
So I'll give you a provisional agreement.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 11-13-2004 10:55 PM jar has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 252 of 286 (159371)
11-14-2004 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by jar
11-14-2004 11:56 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
Well, assuming that there is a god, yes, he/she/it can forgive sins.
That is those sins against She/he/it. If you sin against someone else, only they can forgive you for that.
But what is a sin? Why would a human sacrifice be needed to forgive ANOTHERS sins?
This message has been edited by ramoss, 11-14-2004 02:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by jar, posted 11-14-2004 11:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 11-14-2004 5:02 PM ramoss has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 253 of 286 (159372)
11-14-2004 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Angel
11-12-2004 1:14 PM


Angel writes:
Jesus is the Son of man, (mankind), in that He was born of Mary, Jesus is the Son of God, in that He was born of God. Mary is His mother=son of man God His Father= Son of God
So, was He Man?
or was He God?
was He both?
...or neither?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Angel, posted 11-12-2004 1:14 PM Angel has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 254 of 286 (159404)
11-14-2004 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
11-14-2004 4:04 AM


Re: So what is the issue?
And a human sacrifice is forbidden (the story of Issac and Abraham established that).
what specifically forbids it? i know it's not generally accepted and doesn't fit the levitical standards, but i don't see how the isaac story goes against anything... then again i haven't read it in a while. am i forgetting something?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 4:04 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ramoss, posted 11-15-2004 8:12 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 255 of 286 (159408)
11-14-2004 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by ramoss
11-14-2004 2:15 PM


Re: So what is the issue?
Okay.
Why would a human sacrifice be needed to forgive ANOTHERS sins?
Well, I don't think a human sacrifice is or was needed.
That is those sins against She/he/it. If you sin against someone else, only they can forgive you for that.
It can get complicated, can't it?
Remember, all I can do here is try to explain how I see the issue so it is very likely that you and others may well disagree. That's fine.
As I have said before on here, loving GOD is a matter of actions rather than profession or belief. It goes back to the second of the great commandments, "Love others as you love yourself". When you do not do that, when you do not act in that way, it is a sin.
Under that premise, all sins are at least two fold, they are an act against another and an act against GOD.
The "Jesus Thing" IMHO, is more than just his death. It is his life, his teachings, his death and resurection. The fact that he died is not the salvation or the sacrifice. The fact that he lived, that GOD became man, walked among us, taught us, was man with all of the limitations that entails, was the sacrifice.
Jesus death, his crucifixion, was the direct result of challenging the system. Given human nature, it was an enevitable result. Jesus said, "Folk, things really aren't as complicated at the system wants you to think. You don't need to support the layers of priests. You don't need all of the myriad laws. You can come talk to Dad anytime, any place, for any reason. If you have problems, just ask."
It was as though someone had shown up and simply torn up the existing tax code and shown there was no need for all the overhead. He had to go, had to be silenced. And the way that was done at the time was crucifixion. It was not an unusual punishment, in fact on the day he was crucified, there were at least two others.
So as a summary.
IMHO, Jesus Life is the sign of GOD's forgiveness. It is that GOD took on human form, walked among us, lived with us, taught us that is the sacrifice. The issue cannot be complete without including his death and resurection. And that is the message, the symbol, the meaning of the Jesus Thing.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by ramoss, posted 11-14-2004 2:15 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 11-14-2004 5:43 PM jar has not replied
 Message 257 by lfen, posted 11-14-2004 6:22 PM jar has not replied
 Message 260 by ramoss, posted 11-15-2004 8:15 PM jar has replied
 Message 270 by purpledawn, posted 11-17-2004 9:48 AM jar has not replied

  
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