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Author Topic:   Does the bible condemn homosexuality?
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 311 (95670)
03-29-2004 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Zealot
03-29-2004 7:41 AM


Zealot asks:
quote:
What makes you believe I am a 'born again'.
You're not? That's interesting.
You are? It figures.
Tell me which is correct.
quote:
Or is that just another christian-hate statement.
The only hateful things I've said were about Lot, not Christians. I think Lot is beneath contempt, you say he is "rightous".
quote:
Why do you possibly believe I would not love my son and my daughter equally or put my life down for either child ?
Because you yourself said you'd do pretty much what Lot did in a similar instance, rather than stand and fight to the death to protect your kids. As I see it (without relying on the bible or any other ancient text written by marginally civilized men), your position is immoral.
quote:
...I carry the heavy luggage when we go on holiday...
My, how chivalrous!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 7:41 AM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 6:52 PM berberry has replied

Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 311 (95708)
03-29-2004 3:29 PM


First, why would the raving mob not anally rape someone just because they are a woman? I can't see the reasoning behind that.
Second, what is it with Leviticus that makes it unsuitable for taking quotes from? There is a very direct passage in it (Lev: 20).

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2953 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 289 of 311 (95713)
03-29-2004 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Zealot
03-29-2004 6:24 AM


quote:
I have little doubdt that the incident at Lots house was not out of character for the Sodomites, thus Lot probably knew very well what would happen to him should he try and resist.
This brings up a really good point about Lot and the nature of Sodom. If I lived in a city where walking out my door invited the chance of anal gang-rape, I would seriously consider moving. Zealout: Are you implying that this was an everyday occurrence for Lot? Just seems amazing to me. "Yep, moved out to the suburbs of Sodom. Living downtown was such a pain in the ass"
I don't recall the details, but didn't Lot argue repeatedly for the cities to be spared? Seems a bit funny to me. If I lived somewhere where rapist mobs prowled the streets I would be pretty excited to hear it would be destroyed Yahweh-style. Hell, I've wished such destruction on neighborhoods I have lived in and none have been as bad as Sodom seems to have been. (BTW, I am referring to the rape aspect, not the homosexuality. Rape of either gender is truly an abomination and one oddly pretty much ignored by the Bible).
I see the conclusion to be limited to a small number of possibilities:
1) Sodom had excellent ethnic foods ("The Thai district is wonderful if you can deal with the constant anal rape")
2) Lot, as one of the few survivors and the only one to record his tale, was a complete lier and was covering up his mistakes ("No I wasn't smoking in bed again, God..., er, hated the Sodomites and burned the city to the ground")
3) The righteous Lot didn't consider roving mobs of sodomite rapists to be such a bad thing, thus calling into question his righteousness (again) or what the story was supposed to mean.
4) The OT is a collection of anectdotal mismatched myths, historical records, and poetry from a wide variety of of related ethnic groups occupying the Middle East written over a period of at least a millenia and therefore is a fascinating archaeological tool but of no value in dictating morality for today.
Personally I choose #4, although #1 also has merit (I seem to recall that Lot loved sweet basil curries)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 6:24 AM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 7:03 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 311 (95741)
03-29-2004 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by berberry
03-29-2004 1:12 PM


Shall we try this...
You post this Gem "You are? It figures." and then follow it up with
"The only hateful things I've said were about Lot, not Christians. I think Lot is beneath contempt, you say he is "rightous". "
You've already stigmatised all Christians into some group you despise. What, you got kicked off all the Christian forums you trolled, now you're here ?
Because you yourself said you'd do pretty much what Lot did in a similar instance, rather than stand and fight to the death to protect your kids
No I didn't. Get your facts straight and read the text before thoroughly before passing judgement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by berberry, posted 03-29-2004 1:12 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by berberry, posted 03-30-2004 2:09 AM Zealot has not replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 291 of 311 (95745)
03-29-2004 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Lithodid-Man
03-29-2004 4:02 PM


This brings up a really good point about Lot and the nature of Sodom. If I lived in a city where walking out my door invited the chance of anal gang-rape, I would seriously consider moving. Zealout: Are you implying that this was an everyday occurrence for Lot? Just seems amazing to me. "Yep, moved out to the suburbs of Sodom. Living downtown was such a pain in the ass"
Hi Lithoid, yes I've often wondered about this myself. Yep, I also would have high tailed (well perhaps not) it outa there pretty quickly.
I would only assume that Lot believed that there was hope for Sodom. Much like we can live in a society and believe some people to be good irrespective of some bad deeds they commit.
1) Sodom had excellent ethnic foods ("The Thai district is wonderful if you can deal with the constant anal rape")
LOL. I don't think spicy food would have gone down well with the lifestyle.
cheers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Lithodid-Man, posted 03-29-2004 4:02 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 292 of 311 (95746)
03-29-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Zealot
03-29-2004 6:24 AM


Zealot
I agree that we have little information but regardless as a father you are bound by blood and love to face any mob and do your best in order to defend your children. As I stated before mobs are led by a few and collapse easily when the leaders are confronted and taken care of.Lot obviously had no problem with his decisions,
however,just because it is in the Bible does not make it morally
justifiable which you can I am sure figure out for yourself.
These are some of the reasons the Bible is poor as a source of moral
guidance and it is far better in my mind to reason out from your own experiences and judgements over time what is morally right.It is a sure bet than no matter what your upbringing you will make poor decisions as well as good ones.Life is not as simplistic as 'holy books' would have you believe.

'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 6:24 AM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 7:42 PM sidelined has replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 311 (95755)
03-29-2004 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by sidelined
03-29-2004 7:13 PM


Hi Sidelined.
I agree that we have little information but regardless as a father you are bound by blood and love to face any mob and do your best in order to defend your children. As I stated before mobs are led by a few and collapse easily when the leaders are confronted and taken care of.Lot obviously had no problem with his decisions
I agree with you. I do believe however it is more difficult to control a mob than you think. Lot did actually try and protect his visitors (angels), yet even then the mob refused him. I also do not believe Lot had no problems with his decisions. Should Lot not have felt great dispair at offering his daughters, I would indeed consider him utterly inhumane. However I am not to judge the heart of a man I know the bare minimum about.
These are some of the reasons the Bible is poor as a source of moral guidance and it is far better in my mind to reason out from your own experiences and judgements over time what is morally right.
I can't believe in experience to be an accurate source of moral guideline. Yes, experience does help, however just looking around you , you will see older people commit what you might consider immoral acts all the time. I have heard some pretty good arguments for autonomy and consent being guidelines for determininging morals, but personal experience still results in too much disagreement.
It is a sure bet than no matter what your upbringing you will make poor decisions as well as good ones.Life is not as simplistic as 'holy books' would have you believe.
My belief is that the Holy Spirit will guide my actions and conscience. Yes the Bible does not cater for every single encounter we are to face and every descision we must make, however it should prepare my character in such a way that I can make the right descisions. Ofcourse personal experience and spiritual growth is vital, however a baseline is already set.
anyway, stay well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by sidelined, posted 03-29-2004 7:13 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by sidelined, posted 03-29-2004 8:00 PM Zealot has not replied
 Message 295 by berberry, posted 03-29-2004 11:16 PM Zealot has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5930 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 294 of 311 (95761)
03-29-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Zealot
03-29-2004 7:42 PM


Zealot
I do not wish to beat to death issues here however I am truly puzzled with the information you present here.
Lot did actually try and protect his visitors (angels)
My question is this. What protection do angels need?

'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 7:42 PM Zealot has not replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 311 (95792)
03-29-2004 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Zealot
03-29-2004 7:42 PM


Zealot writes:
quote:
...I am not to judge the heart of a man I know the bare minimum about.
The bare minimum? You know that Lot offered his daughters to a mob to be gang-raped. You know that he lied and said they were virgins in order to sweeten the deal for the mob. You know that he later gets drunk and impregnates both of his daughters. You know that he's a coward. How much more do you need to know about this pervert before you can pass judgement on him?
You can't pass judgement on him, but you can pass judgement on homosexuals? (asking here, not telling)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 7:42 PM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Zealot, posted 03-30-2004 8:02 AM berberry has replied

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 311 (95835)
03-30-2004 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Zealot
03-29-2004 6:52 PM


Zealot inveighs:
quote:
You've already stigmatised all Christians into some group you despise.
How? By saying it figures that you might be a born-again type? I don't despise Christians any more than you hate sinners. I'll grant you that I might harbor a bit of prejudice which can border on bigotry at times toward fundie Christians, but for chrissakes I'm a gay man living in the Deep South! I've been hearing about "God's word" all my life and I'm sick of it. As a moral guide, the bible isn't worth the paper it's printed on! It's time more thinking people started standing up and saying so!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Zealot, posted 03-29-2004 6:52 PM Zealot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Lizard Breath, posted 03-30-2004 8:14 AM berberry has replied

NotAHero
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 311 (95858)
03-30-2004 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by berberry
03-29-2004 1:40 AM


Ok, Berberry, here it goes...again.
Righteous, in the context Peter uses, is meant to say that Lot had placed his faith into the Lord. Therefore, the righteousness of Jesus has been given to him(in the judgement) in exchange for his sin(which Jesus Himself bore the punishment for). This being said, when Lot is described as being a righteous man, it is in no way implying that Lot was perfect and executed flawless decision making, hence his ability to make his decision in Sodom that I still do not agree with. Just as someone might call you a "good" man does not necessitate you being a "perfect" man.
Apparently you missed the part where I gave the very definition of fornication and how it implicates homosexuality. Sex outside of marriage is fornication. Marriage, as seen in the Bible(remember, let's stay on topic here), is ALWAYS between a man and woman and is the only form of marriage promoted by God. An argument from silence is NOT an argument. Because homosexual marriage isn't specifically addressed, does NOT mean it is acceptable. On the contrary, the evidence we have supports marriage in one form alone.
I have yet to put words in Jesus' mouth. In fact, I used scripture and simple logic in order to form a reasonable conclusion.
That passage comes nowhere near close to saying that whatsoever. Nice stretch of imagination. If the passage refers to the creation of man and woman and they're original intent as a couple becoming one flesh, don't you think that's the ideal model which God wanted us to follow? If there were other suitable forms of marriage, I'm pretty sure that would have been in the Bible SOMEWHERE, don't you?
Quote: "You'd also know that Lot's immorality is even further enhanced by the fact that, a few passages later, he gets drunk and impregnates his daughters himself."
Hmmm...apparently I was correct when I rhetorically asked if you should read the Bible first before formulating arguments because you proved my assumption with this ignorant remark. Your wording here suggests that Lot got drunk knowingly and willingly had sex with his daughters in order to impregnate them. This is not the case. The daughters, fearing without men around(seeing as thought Sodom was just destroyed and they're in a cave), would not be able to preserve the lineage, decided to get him drunk and sleep with him. This was not Lot's doing, it was their doing. Perhaps you should take another look at the Bible, and your intentions for that matter, and stop fabricating stories in order to make a point that fits your bias axiom to the situation at hand.
We've been over this...this thread is about whether or not the Bible condemns homosexuality, period. If you want to start another debate, go ahead and do so, but let's stay on track here, ok?
Hopefully the explanation given at the beginning answers this as well. And again, your accusation that Lot got drunk and impregnated his daughters is incorrect and speaks volumes to your intent to taint his image.
Whether the condemnation means anything worthwhile is a completely different subject. I'm glad you have remained focused on the topic at hand, yet again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by berberry, posted 03-29-2004 1:40 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2004 6:07 AM NotAHero has not replied
 Message 303 by berberry, posted 03-30-2004 12:48 PM NotAHero has not replied

NotAHero
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 311 (95862)
03-30-2004 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by crashfrog
03-29-2004 6:22 AM


Crash
This analogy was not to make light of the discussion at hand, it was an analogy used to illustrate a decision at hand based on a circumstance. Come on.
This is by no means circular reasoning. Homosexuality falls into the category of fornication because it is sex outside of marriage. As I have stated before, marriage, as it is exhibited throughout the Bible, ALWAYS involves a man and woman. God makes it clear that the marital structure He created us for is that of one man and one woman.
No, when someone tells me something is good I don't automatically assume that anything else is bad. However, if there were other marital structures equal to that of man/woman, aren't you pretty sure that it would have been mentioned at least once in one form or another? As I've said, an argument from silence is no argument at all. Therefore, we take the example of marriage we've been given, the expressed promotion of that example, and determine that that is how it was intended to be.
I love people dearly which is why I do my best to understand the opposition's side by coming to forums such as these. All scripture aside, homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle and I would love people out of it regardless. Just because I take part in a debate that centers on the issue of homosexuality does not mean I do not love them. Sincerity through text is difficult to convey, but it's the truth.
This little dialogue is rather amusing. I don't assume homosexuality is fornication because "gay sex is bad." I don't assume at all. Homosexuality falls clearly into the definition of fornication itself based on Biblical teaching. Jesus does answer the question about divorce...man/woman divorce. I wonder why Jesus was never asked about man/man or woman/woman divorce? Also, even though the question is asked about divorce specifically, Jesus answers it using scripture and demonstrates that man and woman were specifically created to come together as one. There is not even a CLOSE representation of that found in scripture as it relates to homosexual relationships.
The 10 Commandments are interesting because not only do they tell us not to commit adultery(which I'm sure we all have a clear understanding of what that is), but the last commandment specifically tells us not to covet our neighbor's WIFE. Seems like wife is singled out pretty clearly.
Remember that the Bible transcends time with it's teaching and, of course, the gospel message. However, keep in mind that just because the Bible doesn't expressly say, "homosexuality is wrong" in those exact words, does not mean it doesn't say it. Given the time period it was written, the words used to describe sexual immorality and the like, and the clear and explicit examples of marriage, we should not assume that homosexuality is acceptable in light of scripture. I believe the evidence clearly objects to homosexuality being an acceptable lifestyle choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by crashfrog, posted 03-29-2004 6:22 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by crashfrog, posted 03-30-2004 5:39 AM NotAHero has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 299 of 311 (95869)
03-30-2004 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by NotAHero
03-30-2004 4:11 AM


God makes it clear that the marital structure He created us for is that of one man and one woman.
He makes it clear that marriage of a man and a woman was the arrangement he created for a man and a woman who want to have sex with each other, yes. But to say that God's plan doesn't include gay people having sex with each other, or gay people not marrying each other, is to read way too much into the text.
However, if there were other marital structures equal to that of man/woman, aren't you pretty sure that it would have been mentioned at least once in one form or another?
Like, maybe, one man and two wives?
quote:
Genesis 4:19
And Lamech took two wives; the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Or a man and a man?
quote:
1 Samuel 20:17
And Jonathan made David swear again by his love for him; for he loved him as he loved his own soul.
(Now before you accuse me of misinterpreting or taking out of context, follow up with 1 Samuel 20:26; Yet Saul did not say anything that day; for he thought, "Something has befallen him; he is not clean, surely he is not clean." Shoudn't take a genius here to figure it out, right?)
All scripture aside, homosexuality is an unhealthy lifestyle and I would love people out of it regardless.
So is smoking. But there's no law that says you can't do it at all. There's no law that says two smokers can't marry. And smokers get as many rights as anybody else - including the most contentious one; access to healthcare.
Like any sex, homosexual sex has its risks, but like straight sex they can be managed. And if straight sex is "safer" within marriage, it stands to reason that gay sex will be too. So again your argument is circular: "Gays can't marry because their sex isn't safe. Gay sex isn't safe because they can't get married."
I wonder why Jesus was never asked about man/man or woman/woman divorce?
I wonder why Jesus wasn't asked how to program a VCR? Oh, right. Maybe because those weren't issues at the time? At the time, marriage was a property arrangement, clearly demonstrated by Levitical law. "Gay marriage" didn't make sense, because if a man wanted to own a man like he owned a woman, they'd call that a "slave."
Well, now we don't have slavery, and marriage is no longer a property arrangement but a committment of love between two people. (How come Christians don't bitch about that redefinition?) As such it now applies to persons of any sexual orientation.
The 10 Commandments are interesting because not only do they tell us not to commit adultery(which I'm sure we all have a clear understanding of what that is),
Yeah, not cheating on your wife. Explain how this is applicable to gay people? Remember, lesbians are both wives, and gay men don't have wives. Oh, and please support it with Biblical citations, if you would.
but the last commandment specifically tells us not to covet our neighbor's WIFE. Seems like wife is singled out pretty clearly.
Did you read the commandment? Because it doesn't look like you did.
quote:
Deuteronomy 5:21
"'Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's.'
Wife isn't singled out at all. Wives are listed as part of a list of property not to be coveted.
Remember that the Bible transcends time with it's teaching
Ah, yes. Such transcendant teachings as this:
quote:
Leviticus 19:19
You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two kinds of stuff.
Quick, check your tags. Cotton/Rayon blend? Oops, it's hell for you.
Oo, here's another timeless teaching.
quote:
1 Timothy 2:12
I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
Did you have woman teachers growing up? You know, the National Security Advisor is a woman, last I checked. So one of two things is true: your tax dollars are paying the salary of an advisor who can't talk to the president nor any man in power; or your tax dollars pay the salary of a harlot flaunting God's law. Boy, it sucks to be you, huh?
This is really one for the ages:
quote:
Leviticus 25:44
As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you.
Do Canada and Mexico know they're supposed to be selling us slaves? Moreover don't you think the INS is opposing God's law when they try to restrict immigration?
The point here is that the Bible, like all literature, breathes and expands with time. The Bible expanded to consider women as full persons. The Bible expanded to consider slavery wrong. The Bible will expand to consider loving homosexual relationships as valid as any other, in time.
Given the time period it was written
Given the time period in which we're reading it, and the example of Johnathan and David, it's reasonable to conclude that God doesn't have a problem when people of any gender love one another and express that sexually with a bond of mature committment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by NotAHero, posted 03-30-2004 4:11 AM NotAHero has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 300 of 311 (95870)
03-30-2004 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by NotAHero
03-30-2004 3:46 AM


This was not Lot's doing, it was their doing.
Hrm, I must have missed the passage that talks about them putting a funnel down his throat and cracking the keg. And how do you supposed that Lot fell for it, if, as you say, there was nobody around but him and his daughters?
Keep in mind that prior to the advent of distillation there's an upper limit on just how drunk you can be. Also keep in mind that the amount of alcohol it would take for Lot to be so drunk he wouldn't recognize his daughters (and be morally unaccountable) would prevent erectile function. Maybe you believe that there's no upper limit on how stupid Lot was? Because there's no way he was that drunk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by NotAHero, posted 03-30-2004 3:46 AM NotAHero has not replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 301 of 311 (95884)
03-30-2004 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by berberry
03-29-2004 11:16 PM


The bare minimum? You know that Lot offered his daughters to a mob to be gang-raped. You know that he lied and said they were virgins in order to sweeten the deal for the mob. You know that he later gets drunk and impregnates both of his daughters. You know that he's a coward.
1. How did Lot lie about his daughters being virgins ?
2. He did not want to 'sweeten the deal'. Get over your 'pimp out his daughters' fallacy. The deal was his daughters.
3. Lot's daughters got him drunk and then they took advantage of him.
How much more do you need to know about this pervert before you can pass judgement on him?
You've passed judgement already, and from your statement you have your facts wrong. Close you eyes and forget about people around you. Forget about what they say or believe. Rid yourself of your bias and then read the Bible, from start to finish. All of us are raised in certain ways and have certain prejudices we need to rid ourselves of before we can understand God's Will. You are not the only one that needs to change his ingrainded beliefs and culture to understand God. All of us go through this. Its a journee.
stay well

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by berberry, posted 03-29-2004 11:16 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by berberry, posted 03-30-2004 1:01 PM Zealot has not replied

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