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Author Topic:   Jonah and the whale - It happened!
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 145 (87401)
02-18-2004 11:14 PM


jonah and whale
To: All
I am taking a vacation from the web. I will check back later. Please do not think I am ignoring you. Also, I also am submitting this material to a group of scientist in order to get peer review for some of the material contained in the first post to the string. This should happen in July 2002 as I am currently involved with getting something else published.
To ConsequentAtheist:
Here is my inductive proof:
http://EvC Forum: Jonah and the whale - It happened! -->EvC Forum: Jonah and the whale - It happened!
Sincerely,
Ken
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-18-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by truthlover, posted 02-20-2004 4:16 PM kendemyer has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 92 of 145 (87775)
02-20-2004 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by kendemyer
02-18-2004 11:14 PM


Re: jonah and whale
If y'all don't mind me interjecting some comments.
One, Kendemeyer is not being an intellectual coward, CA. He genuinely believes he has supplied the proof you want.
For Kendemeyer, should he ever return, and Brian, I think the fact that Kendemeyer never reacted to my summation of his argument ("if it's scientifically possible, and the Bible said it, then it happened") is proof enough that I summed his argument up. In a bizarre maneuver, he went back and completely changed his OP, but the point of the OP is still exactly the same: "scientifically, it's not impossible."
That's why he didn't get it, Brian, when you said he should study theology. Only one question is able to get into his brain, "Is it scientifically possible?" Because, in his mind, if it is, then his case is rested: it happened.
I pointed out this is how he was arguing. You pointed out that's not good enough for anyone. Moose tried to grant him his "scientifically possible" argument and then tell him that doesn't prove it happened, and he still couldn't figure it out.
It's a good thing Kendemeyer's taking a break. This could go on forever. You guys are asking for proof it happened, and he considers "it's scientifically possible" proof that it happened. Thus, he can't understand your requests for anything theological (what does theology have to do with "it's scientifically possible") or consequent's request for real inductive proof. He gave evidence it's scientifically possible, what more could you possibly want?
If we can't make him realize scientifically possible does not equal "it happened," then it's pointless to continue; he can't understand your questions.
Anyway, he's gone for now, I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by kendemyer, posted 02-18-2004 11:14 PM kendemyer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-20-2004 10:35 PM truthlover has replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 145 (87804)
02-20-2004 6:52 PM


jonah and whale
To Truthlover:
I decided to update my initial post because I felt I could have made my summary of my personal take on the Jonah account more precise and fuller. I did see your post and since my revised summary addresses your post I thought I would offer it to you. I know you do not agree with my revising but I do feel that revising is sometimes useful especially when you do additional research like I did.
I did want to take a vacation from debating however in that I did not think anything significant was happening in the debate and you seem to confirm my estimation. Regardless, here is my revised summary:
I believe that some of the scientific objections are clearly unfounded and that Jonah could have passed though the gullet area if it was a sperm whale (we clearly do not know if it was a sperm whale) according to the best information I was able to gather. There also seems to be other science data that give the Jonah account a "ring of truth" (sperm whales being in Mediterranean, the scientific foreknowledge that I believe was shown in the "mountains" reference, dying sperm whales vomiting, sperm whales and great white sharks are found in the Mediterranean Sea,etc). Lastly, I do believe that Jonah's survival (or resurrection of course) was largely a supernatural occurence although I guess perhaps some of the naturalistic explanations are possible though not likely given the 30 plus hours and the probable air and acidity problems. On the other hand, I am getting too much conflicting information to entirely rule out some naturalistic explanations regarding the air/acidity issues. The Bible is clear God did intervene in the "large fish"/Jonah situation in some places as I pointed out earlier. I am leaning towards a more supernatural explanation though.
I believe I have presented quite a bit of information from various disciplines. Accordingly, if any person wishes to call the Book of Jonah a legend, I believe he first has to address the information I presented.
To Truthlover (continued)
In short, I think that some of the main science objections have been overcome in regards to the book of Jonah(sperm whale gullet size, certain people saying sperm whales are not found in the Mediteranean). I also think that some of the science info adds addition proof to the book of Jonah (sperm whale vomiting, apparent scientific foreknowledge). In addition, some science info make things possible but not probable from a strictly naturalistic point of view. However, I do think the historical data I have given has largely been ignored and not addressed.
TO Everyone:
If anyone wishes to look into the scholarship further I would recommend the following sources: the MacArthur Study Bible, the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia, and Gleason Archer's work entitled "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction." I would also recommend the following two web resources:
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Eword
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
I think you will like the Jamieson, Fausset, Brown and Mathew Henry Commentaries the best at the above resources.
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-21-2004]

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6259 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 94 of 145 (87834)
02-20-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by truthlover
02-20-2004 4:16 PM


Re: jonah and whale
One, Kendemeyer is not being an intellectual coward, CA. He genuinely believes he has supplied the proof you want.
Then it should be trivially easy for Kendemeyer or you, his perceptive lawyer, to outline his inductive proof of the historical accuracy of the Jonah narrative.
For Kendemeyer, should he ever return, and Brian, I think the fact that Kendemeyer never reacted to my summation of his argument ("if it's scientifically possible, and the Bible said it, then it happened") is proof enough that I summed his argument up.
You apparently see proof everywhere.
In a bizarre maneuver, he went back and completely changed his OP, but the point of the OP is still exactly the same: "scientifically, it's not impossible."
And his inductive proof?
You guys are asking for proof it happened, and he considers "it's scientifically possible" proof that it happened.
And what do you think? Do you see any basis whatsoever to accept such silliness as inductive proof?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by truthlover, posted 02-20-2004 4:16 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by truthlover, posted 02-21-2004 12:43 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 95 of 145 (87853)
02-21-2004 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by ConsequentAtheist
02-20-2004 10:35 PM


Re: jonah and whale
And what do you think? Do you see any basis whatsoever to accept such silliness as inductive proof?
Nope. I was kind of hoping at some point he'd go, "Oh, they're asking me to provide some evidence that this actually happened, rather than just some evidence that it's possible." However, he's been asked that directly by Moose and Brian several times, and it never clicked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-20-2004 10:35 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-21-2004 3:11 PM truthlover has not replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6259 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 96 of 145 (87894)
02-21-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by truthlover
02-21-2004 12:43 AM


Re: jonah and whale
he's been asked that directly by Moose and Brian several times, and it never clicked.
Perhaps he left because it did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by truthlover, posted 02-21-2004 12:43 AM truthlover has not replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 145 (87900)
02-21-2004 4:03 PM


jonah and whale
Dear Readers:
I did quite a bit of additional historical and archeological research in regards to the Book of Jonah.
Here is a summary of some of my old and new findings (I updated my initial post accordingly):
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE BOOK OF JONAH BEING TRUE
Accoding to a website whose information I confirmed through several reference and website sources the following is true:
"From II Kings 14:25 we know that Jonah lived during the time of Jeroboam II (793-753 BC). He was sent to Nineveh --- the capital city of Assyria --- to deliver a warning from God that unless they repented they would be destroyed. There are several historical clues which seem to point to a date for this prophecy somewhere in the late 750's BC --- perhaps around 758 BC:
During the reign of Adad-nirari III (811-783 BC) there was a swing toward monotheism. However, at his death the nation entered a period of national weakness and even greater moral decay. "During this time, Assyria was engaged in a life and death struggle with the mountain tribes of Urartu, and its associates of Mannai and Madai in the north, who had been able to push their frontier to within less than a hundred miles of Nineveh" (Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 7).
In 756 BC a plague struck the nation, followed by a second plague in 759 BC. In 763 BC there was an eclipse of the sun. These were "events of the type regarded by ancients as evidence of divine judgment, and could have prepared the people to receive Jonah's message" (The Ryrie Study Bible). "No doubt this depressed state of Assyria contributed much to the readiness of the people to hear Jonah as he began to preach to them" (Homer Hailey).
There is some historical evidence that during the reign of Ashurdan III (771-754 BC) a religious awakening occurred. This may have been the result of Jonah's preaching. In 745 BC Tiglath-pileser III (745-727 BC) came to the throne and Assyria again became a major power. Under his leadership the Assyrians became "the rod of God's anger (Isaiah 10:5) against His rebellious people Israel. Israel finally fell to the Assyrians with the capture of Samaria in 722 BC (through the efforts of Tiglath-pileser's successors --- Shalmaneser V and Sargon II).
Through the preaching of Jonah, and the repentance of the people of Nineveh, the city was spared at this time. However, history tells us their repentance was fairly short-lived. Soon they had fallen back into their sinful way of life. The prophet Nahum was then sent to these same people. However, they failed to repent (as they had with Jonah), and thus were destroyed in 612 BC. "
taken from: Jonah
OTHER COMMENTARY REGARDING THE BOOK OF JONAH BEING HISTORICAL
Jews at the time of Jesus viewed Jonah as history. For example Jesus once said:
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will arise in the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah. (Matthew 12:40-41
That the Jonah account was intended as history rather than allegory is the more obvious conclusion. Jonah is classed among the "Prophets" and all the other prophets of the Bible are presented in the Bible as literal persons. Furthermore, Jonah is named, his father is named, the town where they lived is named (2 Kings 14:25) and the period in which they lived is given. In other words the times places and characters are not vague and unspecified as they are in, say, the parables spoken by Jesus. The degree of detail associated with Jonah would anywhere in the Bible indicate that the writer is presenting alleged history and not parable or allegory.
The main intent behind the book might still be to give a moral lessonbut it’s a moral lesson based on events which are offered as real. Let’s consider then whether most of the report can, sensibly, be taken as literal history.....
ASSYRIAN MONOTHEISM
Critics sometimes argue that the alleged repentance of the people of Nineveh capital of the Assyrian Empire would have been a bigger miracle than Jonah surviving being swallowed by a "fish".
Assyria was one of the most barbaric of ancient empires. People of captured cities were routinely burned alive, skinned alive, or had ears, noses, hands or feet chopped off.
Jonah was already a prophet during the reign of King Jeroboam of Israel. (2 Kings 14:23) Jeroboam reigned 787 to 747 BC. This places Jonah after Shalmanezer III of Assyria who during his blood-stained reign, 859 - 824 BC, led 32 war campaigns. It also puts Jonah before the equally bloody Tiglath Pileser III who ruled 745-727 BC. Jonah therefore lived when a number of comparatively weak kings ruled Assyria.
Furthermore, for about 50 years during the first half of the 8th century BC, Nineveh was repeatedly torn by civil unrest, palace intrigues, religious strife and even civil war. The book of Jonah confirms that Jonah arrived at Nineveh during a period of internal strife and violence. (See chapter 3:6-9)
Among the gods of Nineveh were Ninua the goddess of waters, Oannes a god with the head and body of a fish attached to the top of a human head, Dagon god of the sea, and Anu the highest or chief god.
We therefore have a setting in which the population of Nineveh might have listened to Jonah and turned to at least superficially the God Jonah proclaimed.
Consider: News of Jonah’s survival in the "fish" precedes his arrival. Different religious factions attribute Jonah’s survival to Anu, Ninua, Oannes or Dagon. Jonah arrivespossibly with a ghastly bleached, appearance...The King hears of great crowds listening to Jonah preaching and sees this as a means of ending civil strife and religious division and reunifying the city and the empire. The King and high officials therefore set the example, respond to Jonah, and publicly express remorse for the violence in the city. (See Jonah 3:6-9)"
taken from:
http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJonahDebate.htm
MORE INFORMATION IN REGARDS TO THE BOOK OF JONAH BEING HISTORICAL
A website declares:
"There is no adequate reason to regard Jonah as non-historical.
1. The form of the book is clearly historical.
2. Jonah was an actual person.
3. Nineveh was an actual city.
4. Jews regarded Jonah as historical (Josephus Antiquities IX, 10, 2).
5. Christian tradition viewed Jonah as historical.
6. Historical record, 2 Kg 14:26
7. Real kings, nations and places
8. Christ view the book as historical, Mt 12:39-41; Lu 11:29-32. If we reject the book of Jonah as literal, we reject the authenticity of Christ’s statement.
9. Archeology dovetails with facts of Jonah.
References to Jonah in 2 Kings 14:25; Mt 12:39-41; Lu 11:39-32
One of four Old Testament prophets referred to by Jesus. The others were Isaiah (Mt 15:7), Elijah (Mt 17:11-12) and Elisha (Lu 4:27).
4 chapters, 48 verses and 1328 words
It is not the prophecy at issue, but the prophet.
There is no prophecy in the book except the prophecy that God will destroy Nineveh."
taken from: http://www.crusade.org/word/word2310.html
ARCHEOLOGY AND THE BOOK OF JONAH
AN ARCHEOLOGICAL FIND IN REGARDS TO JONAH AND NINEVEH:
"A second interesting bit of information is the name of the mound in the upper Tigris valley under which the remains of ancient Nineveh were discovered. The site of Nineveh had long been lost. But the mound had been called "Neby Yunas" ("The Prophet Jonah") for centuries."
taken from: http://www.discoverthebook.org/message_detail.asp?fileid=424
HERE IS WHAT ANOTHER WEBSITE DECLARES:
"Archeology attests that the Ninevites were a cruel and bloody people and the earth was well rid of them, that's for sure."
taken from: http://www.cliffordaweber.com/repentan.htm
MORE IN REGARDS TO ARCHEOLOGY AND NINEVEH
A website declares the following:
"Jonah 4:11 (NIV) "But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?""
Here we are told that there were at least 120,000 people living in this single city alone. Now this report from the Bible was too much to take for many 19th century secular archaeologists. These ...scientists said the Bible's account was pure fiction and unreliable, for if such a city as Nineveh did exist, it was an impossibility for its time! They said, the city couldn't be as large as reported because it would need a tremendous water supply, and no city of ancient days had pumps to supply such huge amounts of water to so many people living in close proximity. Secondly, they mockingly asserted that since not a single stone had been found exposing the city of Nineveh, it simply didn't exist. The Bible was wrong and in error!
You see, with that strong bias, the scientist's of the early 1800's had no room for anyone even considering exploring for the city of Nineveh. However, in the mid 19th century, France sent a trade representative to Iraq, the modern name for ancient Assyria. This young man whose name was Paul Emile Botta, was a student of the Bible....While in Mosul, Iraq, Paul Botta, believed the Bible should be the guide for any archaeological study. As he was stationed near where Nineveh should have existed, this "amateur" archaeologists set out to find the city that didn't seem to exist.
As Mosul was out of the way, Botta often traveled extensively up and down the Tigris River. Along the way approaching Mosul, he noticed what had for centuries been dark mystery mounds, in the desert region of Mesopotamia. These strange black mounds of desert soil had flat tops and steep side upwards of a hundred feet or more. Most were covered by tough camel-thorn and other dry brush, which kept most herdsmen away from them for centuries. All along the deserts of Assyria stood these strange "mystery mounds," and no one knew what caused them.
Botta using his Bible, decided that if Nineveh was mentioned in the Scriptures, it had to be there, somewhere! By his calculations, he determined that about six miles from Mosul, Iraq, the ancient site of Nineveh should be located. But alas, all that was there were these "mystery mounds" of desert sands and scrub.
...Botta began digging at one of these "mystery mounds." He worked for over a year in his spare time. It was difficult to imagine the hardships he faced. The terrible insects that carried all kinds of disease attacked him, the fierce heat, the burning desert sun baked him raw, and an Arab governor of the area, who by the way, was against his digging, often dogged his work. Yet Botta did not stop. Soon his digging paid off. In the first mound he found just bits of pottery, broken bricks and some cracked statues. He moved to other mounds, particularly one near the Tigris River and there he began to dig again. This one though, yielded results! The deeper he dug the more he found out that the "mystery mounds" of the desert were not mounds at all - they were a huge ancient city!
Through Botta's relentless digging, he found that date palms had grown around this buried city, fields grew abundantly with wheat and barely, and yet for some unknown reason, this huge city had been abandoned, and more strangely, it had been buried by strange fierce winds of the now tranquil desert. As Botta dug, he sent reports to archaeologists everywhere. At first they scoffed at this Bible-led "amateur" archaeologist, but soon his reports couldn't be ignored. They were astonishing to say the least.
The first mound Botta dug deeply in, revealed it was the summer palace for the Assyrian kings. He found beautiful alabaster covered walls. Ancient artists had skillfully carved relief images in it showing the daily life of the palace. He later discovered that this was the actual home of KINGS ASHURBANIPAL, SARGON, and KING NEBUCHADNEZZER! All these kings are mentioned in the Bible. Yes, the more Botta dug, he found courtyards, public reception rooms, corridors, why even a zoo and magnificent flower gardens.
Yet, the greatest find was in the next huge "mystery mound" Botta dug into. Here finally after many centuries, the Bible's historical record proved as true as ever...NINEVEH was found! This mystery city, the main city, was unearthed and actually did exist, as the Bible declared. Botta and succeeding archaeologists soon discovered that it was a very idolatrous city. You see the walls of the city had numerous carvings of frightening animal figures, and winged lions with human heads. More amazing was the fact that Botta found an elaborate system of eighteen canals whose express purpose was to bring...huge amounts of water to this thriving and populous city.
To date, now it has been substantiated that King Sennacherib who lived in 700 BC built a 30 mile aqueduct to bring fresh running water into this great city."
taken from: http://www.wwy.org/wwy1200.html
MORE IN REGARDS TO ARCHEOLOGY AND NINEVAH
http://www.bible-history.com/assyria_archa...ia_nineveh.html
MORE INFORMATION REGARDING THE BOOK OF JONAH AND NINEVEH:
Page not found | Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-21-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-21-2004 5:17 PM kendemyer has not replied
 Message 100 by ThingsChange, posted 02-22-2004 12:52 AM kendemyer has not replied
 Message 102 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 02-22-2004 8:25 AM kendemyer has not replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6259 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 98 of 145 (87910)
02-21-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by kendemyer
02-21-2004 4:03 PM


Re: jonah and whale
Therefore?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by kendemyer, posted 02-21-2004 4:03 PM kendemyer has not replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 145 (87924)
02-21-2004 7:27 PM


jonah and whale
TO: ConsequentAtheist
I believe the ending of my first post to the string addresses my response to your last post - especially since I recently added a lot of historical and archeological evidence today to the string:
"I believe I have presented quite a bit of information from various disciplines. Accordingly, if any person wishes to call the Book of Jonah a legend, I believe he first has to address the information I presented."
Sincerely,
Ken
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-21-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 02-22-2004 3:39 AM kendemyer has not replied

ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5947 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 100 of 145 (87938)
02-22-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by kendemyer
02-21-2004 4:03 PM


Re: jonah and whale
kendemyer writes:
Christ view the book as historical, Mt 12:39-41; Lu 11:29-32. If we reject the book of Jonah as literal, we reject the authenticity of Christ’s statement.
In the book of Matthew, Jesus refered to the Flood and Noah, too. If you reject the Flood in Genesis, then don't you also "the authenticity of Christ’s statement"?
Many miracles claimed by authors of the Bible books cannot be proved one way or the other (i.e healing, water to wine in a local area, etc.). Jonah and Whale is one of those, too. I don't think any of us doubt that Jonah existed or ancient cities. And, the Bible is pretty good at archeology. But, that is a far cry from buying the story of the whale. That is like saying that the books that claim UFOs are true because the observer was proven to be at the site in Arizona (or wherever).
The real controversy is over miracles that clash with scientific evidence, like the age of the Earth and whether a Great Flood occurred.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by kendemyer, posted 02-21-2004 4:03 PM kendemyer has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 101 of 145 (87945)
02-22-2004 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by kendemyer
02-21-2004 7:27 PM


Re: jonah and whale
The Book of Jonah is just a legend.
Jesus' reference to the story can be explained as no more than that - a reference to a story. There is no need there for the story to be true.
2 Kings 14 mentions a Jonah, but nothing of the story itself.
There is nothing unusual in a legend coming to be viewed as historical centuries later.
The ONLY person named in the story is Jonah and only a few places are named. There is no clear setting and only the reference to Jonah in 2 Kings 14 allows us to attempt a dating.
There is NO archaeological corroboration of the story and the suggestion that there is is dishonest.
The form of the book clearly suggests that it is a legend.
That was easy. Now do you have any real evidence that it actually happened ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by kendemyer, posted 02-21-2004 7:27 PM kendemyer has not replied

ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6259 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 102 of 145 (87951)
02-22-2004 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by kendemyer
02-21-2004 4:03 PM


D-
I did quite a bit of additional historical and archeological research in regards to the Book of Jonah.
Absolute rubbish: you demonstrate that you haven't a clue what "historical and archeological research" is all about.
Accoding to a website whose information I confirmed through several reference and website sources the following is true: ...
You confirmed? How? Specifically:
  • What were these "several reference and website sources"?
  • What are your credentials for evaluating such sources?
  • What is your reason for concealing them?
  • What is Al Maxey?
  • What are his credentials in the field of archaeology and history?
  • What is Homer Hailey, quoted by Brother Maxey?
  • What are his credentials in the field of archaeology and history?
  • What is Maxey's evidence for "a religious awakening"?
  • What is his basis for saying "This may have been the result of Jonah's preaching"?
  • What is your reason for rejecting that 'it may not have been the result of Jonah'?
  • What is his basis for saying "Through the preaching of Jonah ... the city was spared at this time."?
  • What does any of this prove about "Jonah and the Whale"?
This is very much like presenting a jumble of folklore, quack science, and weather reports on tornadic activity in Kansas, and then pretending that you've proven the historicity of the Munchkins.
Jews at the time of Jesus viewed Jonah as history.
So what? People back then, much like some fringe fruitloops today, believed all types of absurdities. You are living proof of that capacity (which, by the way, is the only probative evidence you've offered so far).
Based on DSS evidence, the Book of Enoch was quite popular. I'm more than willing to stipulate that the two books are equally accurate. What about you?
kendemyar, you have, in fact, offered not one piece of probative evidence supporting your position. It is difficult to determine whether you are too arrogant, too deluded, or too young to recognize this, but your effort thus far barely achieves the level of a very, very bad Junior High School paper.
Where is the inductive proof of Jonah and the Whale?
[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 02-22-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by kendemyer, posted 02-21-2004 4:03 PM kendemyer has not replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 145 (87990)
02-22-2004 2:37 PM


jonah and whale
Dear Readers:
1. Miracles do not clash with science. Miracles are outside of science. The founder of the scientific method, Bacon, was clearly opposed to atheism (see: http://www.philosophyofreligion.co.uk/bacon-atheism.html ) and believed that the resurrection occurred. Science made no great leap forward during the skeptical period of Greek philosophy (see: Ancient Greek Skepticism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy )but made its leap in Christianized Europe (see http://www.ldolphin.org/bumbulis/ ). Miracles are outside of science but do not conflict with science. You do not read in science textbooks that miracles are impossible although you may read this in philosophy textbooks that have an atheistic bent.
2. If ConsequentialAtheist does not like my internet sources that I provided as a public courtesy he can go to my written sources that I provided previously in message 93 of the string (Wycliffe, Archer, MacArthur). I do not recall ConsequentAtheist offering any written sources from scholarly sources. I do realize that ConsequentialAtheist may not have seen my written sources that I offered as I did update that post but the update was before his latest post I can assure you.
3. I did provide corroborative evidence in regards to the Book of Jonah and I know of at least 2 instances where the skeptics were proved wrong in the long run and the Bible was proved true in regards to the book of Jonah (Nineveh and whale gullet size). I could have shown more instances where the skeptics objections were shown to be insufficient in regards to the book of Jonah but for the sake of brevity I did not. I do not think the skeptics have a good track record in terms of the Book of Jonah. I realize that Christians do not have a perfect track record (Bartley, shark/English Channel) but I believe it is far better than the skeptics.
4. I do not see the skeptics here putting any points on the board in terms of the book of Jonah in this forum as far as the Book of Jonah making mistakes. I know they cannot because I have already looked through many written and internet sources. In short, the track record of the Bible being shown to have made a mistake in the Book of Jonah is zero. The skeptics have made many allegations that ultimately could not be maintained and so their track record is tarnished whereas the Book of Jonah is not. In fact as time has passed the Book of Jonah has increased its corroborative evidence.
5. I do plan on doing additional research in regards to the Book of Jonah because I have an interest in some areas. I will be make updates as necessary to the string.
6. I have made the request to keep the debate on focus. I know this is a reasonable request and NosyNed the skeptic agrees. If you feel you have a compelling case in regards to non Flood Geology there is a forum for that purpose at evcforum and it is entitled "Geology and the Great Flood." Please keep the debate on focus.
6. I will be checking back to this string less frequently. Please do not feel as though I am ignoring you if you make some post in the meantime. It is just a matter of increased priorities in other areas of my life.
7. I believe Paulk uses very poor Biblical exegesis. Jesus refers to Jonah and not the story of Jonah. Jesus saw Jonah as historical. Also, he does not address Josephus adequetely.
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-24-2004]
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-26-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by AdminAsgara, posted 02-22-2004 2:52 PM kendemyer has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 104 of 145 (87992)
02-22-2004 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by kendemyer
02-22-2004 2:37 PM


Re: jonah and whale
Ken,
Please reread the posts by CA and others. No one is saying that miracles do not happen. They are asking, "If miracles are outside of science, why do ppl attempt to "prove" them scientifically?"
I do not recall ConsequentAtheist offering any written sources from scholarly sources.
CA isn't the one that made the claim "Jonah and the Whale - It happened!" CA is under no obligation to provide any sources. He HAS been asking you questions concerning YOUR sources.
No one here is making ANY claims what-so-ever concerning Jonah. They are asking you to show your evidence that this event happened. This does NOT mean evidence that it COULD have happened.
We are giving you a lot of leeway here Ken. I, for one, do not believe that you understand what is being asked of you.

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by kendemyer, posted 02-22-2004 2:37 PM kendemyer has not replied

kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 145 (88003)
02-22-2004 3:49 PM


jonah and whale
Dear AdminAsgara:
I was about to log off and I saw your post.
You are correct in that the one gentleman did not saw miracles are against science. My mistake. There has, however, been a concerted effort to flood "Flood Geology" into this string and I can demonstate this. I clearly asked in the beginning of the string that the debate be kept on topic. NosyNed, the skeptic seems to agree. I would hope you feel the debate should be kept on topic also. If you could provide some feedback in regards to this I would appreciate it. I think we all realize there is plenty of opportunity to discuss other topics at other strings set up for that purpose. Specifically there is a debate forum in regards to Geology and the Flood account. I am guessing that most people by now would guess my position in regards to the Geology debate so I do not feel the desire to strongly publicize my views in regards to Geology although there is a forum for that should I wish to. I also said that I have no interest in doing so. I feel the Flood Geology debate is a well worn topic and there are plenty of resources for the general public who wish to investigate this matter more in depth. I also realize at the same time that new information is being made available so there is a place for that forum.
I would say that ConsequentAtheist had been careful to not say the Book of Jonah is a legend and the accordingly provide evidence for that. More importantly, I do not think the legendary position can be maintained with any degree of credibility. I would also say that I have provided corroborative evidence for my position in diverse disciplines. I would also say that I did offer 3 scholarly resources from written sources. I would also maintain that some endnotes and/or footnotes were provided in my web sources I gave. Lastly, I would say that on one particular post ConsequentAtheist complained my data was insufficient and I had broken links. He made no mention of my broken links so I feel I am warranted in questioning if he is truly examing the evidence I present with a high degree of diligence. I think it would be unwise of me to believe that all who complain about my post are truly examining them. He does seem to be examining my links now though.
I never tried to support miracles with science in terms of the Book of Jonah. I did say there was some uncertainty in regards to what exactly was a miracle and what was not. I also gave my estimation of what was probably a miracle although I said there was not certainty. Also, I clearly did say the miraculous did occur in some portions of the Book of Jonah.
If someone is asking me to provide a camcorder tape of Jonah emerging from a large sea creature I am afraid I will disapppoint them. I do feel there is a difference between moral certainty and absolute certainty and the vast majority of us do not make decisions based on absolute certainty however. Here is something I wrote in another forum:
"You are in a cab. A doctor is in the cab next to you. Suddenly, you feel immense pain in your midsection. You tell the doctor where it hurts. The doctor proceeds then to ask you some questions. The doctor then says, "I think we need to rush to the hospital. I think you have an acute problem with your appendix. You ask the doctor: "Are you absolutely sure? Is it possible it is something else?" The doctor says, "Well it is possible I guess that it is something else, but I strongly recommend we rush to the hospital right now." You say, "Well, If you are not absolutely sure I am not going to the hospital. I am going to visit my girlfriend."
I realize that moral certainty is a matter of conscience and that each person should investigate the matter in terms of the Book of Jonah with the diligence that their conscience dictates. I do believe, however, that I have examined this issue with due diligence plus I have given additional resources for those who wish to investigate this matter more in depth.
If I had entitled my string, "Jonah and the whale - It happened and I can demonstrate it with 100% certainty with my camcorder tape" I think a person who would maintain I show with 100% certainty the validity of the Book of Jonah would have a valid objection.
If anything I think a valid criticism of my title is that is should have been: Jonah and the large sea creature (originally called a large fish because it was written before the creationist Linnaeus developed his classification system) - It happened! I did not think this title would fit in your system, however. I hope you do not mind me injecting a little humor in the debate. I also said that one reason I did give the title I did was so Christians would clearly see what position I am taking and should they want to read material in support of the Bible. I also said I did not expect there to be a revival in the camp of militant atheist in response to my essay. I obviously take the position it happened. PaulK obviously takes the position it did not happen. ConsequentAtheist takes the position that he can demand more evidence and have me take him seriously even though he did not complain many of my links were broken in a post he complained about. I regret I cannot take him seriously though but perhaps that will change. I certainly hope so.
I realize I have not been asked to show 100% certainty in this particular forum. I would reiterate the point, however, that the Book of Jonah does have a better track record than the skeptics in terms of not being shown wrong in terms of the Book of Jonah. I clearly demonstated this and I could have demonstrated this more fully although I did not for the sake of brevity and due to time constraints.
I would also reiterate my request to keep the debate on topic.
I also wish to say again that I am not ignoring post made to this string as far as subsequent post. I explained why in my previous post. I would recommend the written resources I gave earlier in the meantime (Wycliffe, Archer, and MacArthur). You can also examine my links and their associated endnotes and/or footnotes also. I would also recommend these 2 online sources:
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Eword
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-22-2004]
[This message has been edited by kendemyer, 02-22-2004]

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