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Author Topic:   The Time Problem With A Mythical Jesus
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 46 of 76 (138097)
08-30-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 11:25 AM


I suspect that you are confusing "verifiable" with "falsifiable".
Either way your argument is in trouble.
It is worthless to states that a claim is - or rather was - "verifiable" - if that is what you meant you need to show that it was actually verified. Saying that if somebody looked they MIGHT have found evidence tells us nothing of use.
And while the location of Jesus' birth might be verifiable it certainly need not be falsifiable. How could you prove that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem ? We don't even know if Jesus was born under a (nominally) Jewish administration (Matthew) or under Roman rule (Luke). You would think that if the Gospels had reliable information on Jesus' birth they would agree on WHEN he was born.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:25 AM Jasonb has not replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 76 (138100)
08-30-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by lfen
08-30-2004 11:37 AM


Because there are so very few non bibical mentions in support of a historic Jesus you are forced into this argument that basically that because Christianity survived it must be true. Would you make that claim of Islam?
I didn’t become a Christian because of the Bible. It was the other way around. I became a Christian and was compelled to read the Bible.
You can't check the facts, yet you are asking us to take the Gospels as fact simply because they weren't abandoned as false by early Christians?
That is really not my argument here. I really just want to explore the foundation of Christianity. Christianity had a beginning, a first flock, if you will. I want see if it makes sense that these people could be duped given the fact that what was being told to them, happened just a little while before, and right next door.
Your argument can not establish the accuracy of the gospels. That you are even making such a weak argument is testimony to the weakness of your evidence.
To this point there has not been much of an argument on the original point of this thread. I understand many doubt the dating of the scriptures. And we can debate that in other posts if you would like. What is my evidence that compels me to believe in Christ? Faith, not history.
Hebrews 1:11
quote:
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by lfen, posted 08-30-2004 11:37 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by lfen, posted 08-30-2004 12:44 PM Jasonb has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 48 of 76 (138110)
08-30-2004 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 12:00 PM


What is my evidence that compels me to believe in Christ? Faith, not history.
Well, yes, precisely. And that is true of those who have found a meaningful faith in Krishna, Allah, and on and on.
You are using christian apologetic rhetoric when you say "duped" impling a deliberate attempt to con people and they fell for it. I don't think it worked like that at all.
People want to believe and christians offered salvation, eternal life, etc. powerful emotional incentives to believe. That facts fail to support or contradict their beliefs doesn't mean someone lied. It means someone got something wrong, which is SOP for humanity, nothing unusal in that. There is a lot of psychological studies, theories etc. about how humans use belief, denial, illusions to survive and deal with life.
The problem that apologist face is that the bible is an uneven record written by people who didn't have a modern intention to write history. All the early church documents are arguing for religious beliefs and faith and not attempting accurate history.
I think the probability is that there was a historic Jesus but that is not certain. PaulK thinks a little more than that can be said. He could be right. Earl Doherty with a little less probability could be right that Paul's Christ was entirely mythical. There is just too little evidence at this time for me to determine.
And you can't claim there was at one time enough good evidence or Christianity wouldn't have survived. That is a rhetorical appeal that will work with many naive people but it's not logical.
You are familiar with Jar's posts here? I think he strikes a good balance between science, history, and faith. He doesn't try to change facts to support his faith neither has he lost faith because of facts.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 12:00 PM Jasonb has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 76 (138111)
08-30-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 11:40 AM


This too could be very easily proven false.
So what? Since when does proving a religion to be factually incorrect stop it?

"Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine, it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read, 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous, and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.' The page has been universally condemned by church leaders."
-Rob Grant and Doug Naylor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:40 AM Jasonb has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 76 (138155)
08-30-2004 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 11:35 AM


The p52 fragment is without question from the Gospel of John. Dating it to 125 AD puts the claims sometime before that. That pushes the claims very close to the events, not centuries after.
Jason, no one is disputing that. What is in question though, is the Bible. There is little doubt that the Ryland fragment is part of the Gospel of John, it is not at all certain just what the Gospel of John was. One thing that is known, based on the existing copies of various books and gospels is that there were various versions of most being circulated. Even the finally accepted copies of the four gospels tell slightly different stories except where it is apparent that sections were coppied from an earlier work.
So the story of Jesus, as told in the early Gospels is not uniform. In the Gospel of Thomas, for example, an entirely different version of Jesus is portrayed, one that is far closer to the Gnostic tradition than that of John.
While you simply dismiss the suggestion to look at the Lives of the Saints, it would be productive. There you will see that in far less than 70 years, stories every bit as amazing as those told about Jesus rise up and take firm hold. They will show that a legend can even be created within the lifetime of the individual, far less than 70 years.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:35 AM Jasonb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by lfen, posted 08-30-2004 5:10 PM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 51 of 76 (138195)
08-30-2004 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 11:16 AM


Re:
First of all, in the case of the Jews it was being claimed that they killed the messiah. A messiah they were all waiting for and preaching others to be on the look out for. They did not like the accusations being made.
It was Jews claiming it! Jesus was a jew, Paul, and the circle in Jerusalem were all jews. Christianity is a sect of Judaism although over the centuries both groups have distanced themselves from each other.
And there were different groups of Jews claiming a number of different Messiahs had come, nothing extraordinary about that claim. Lots of Jews believed they were living in the end times, including Paul. Then the end times didn't come. Has that falsified the religion? NO! Religionists by and large don't worry about the factuality or rationality of their claims, it's how their beliefs make them feel that seems to be important.
Paul said in 1 COR 15 that Jesus appeared to 500 people after his death at one time, and some of them are still alive (at the time of his writing).
Paul speaks of that appearance and the appearance of Christ to him in the same terms. It appears he was talking of a visitation perhaps along the lines of the various visions of the Virgin Mary. Those people would attest to the visionary Christ that Paul speaks of and not a physical human being that they knew.
lfen

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 Message 37 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:16 AM Jasonb has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 52 of 76 (138197)
08-30-2004 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
08-30-2004 2:48 PM


The lives of the saints as examples of belief in miracles
Jar,
This is a very good argument. Net surfing results in much lower source retention than reading books does and now I can't find where I read this. But the author was talking about the tales of a Saint that were widely believed and the stories were incredible and easily falsifiable, something about killing monsters that attacked. But I can't find it. But you are right the way people accepted often within the lifetime but certainly soon after incredible stories of miracles counters Jason's argument. I don't understand why he believes he can prove something in this way anyhow, it's just not a logical or legitimate argument.
lfen

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 Message 50 by jar, posted 08-30-2004 2:48 PM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 53 of 76 (138201)
08-30-2004 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 11:35 AM


If I did that then I would spend the rest of my time in this thread defending my examples. And I am not really interested in doing that.
Simply take some time and read the Lives of the Saints and you will see example after example of such acts.
I am more interested in the claims made about Jesus and if 70 years is enough time for a legend to form.
Fine Jason. You are interested in repeating what you tell yourself to confirm your faith. You aren't interested in defending your assertions. Jar's example demolishes your claim so you won't condenscend to check it out. Troll away, I've had it with you, bye.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:35 AM Jasonb has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 76 (138279)
08-30-2004 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jasonb
08-30-2004 11:28 AM


Re: Gospels are late legends
Examples of modern, instantaneously occurring myths:
1. Roswell, 1955. From a downed weather balloon, we immediatley had a whole plethora of conspiracy theories about a covered up crashed alien spaceship and recovered alien bodies that persist until this day.
2. Medjugorje, 1981. Six people claim they see the Virgin Mary on a hillside and claim they were able to touch her. Next day thousands came and claim to have seen a light, and healing claims have flourished. Now the place is a tourist attraction.
3. Sai Baba. A present day "miracle" worker who has attracted a following of millions from within India and beyond, despite the fact that investigators have denounced him as nothing more than a sleight of hand charlatan.
The myths surrounding the above modern events arose immediatley after the events. Despite the fact that we live in a modern age of scientific knowledge, and global communication, it has been largely impossible to comprehensively debunk these events and stop the spread of the myth arising from them. And of course we had information about these events flowing directly from their occurrance: not just hearsay accounts written down a whole generation after the events. How could we expect the Jewish church to debunk the growing Christian myth 2000 years ago, in a time of rampant superstition when the scientific method of testing and knowledge gathering was non-existent??
And besides the Bible itself, which demonstrates a flourishing and growing Christ myth throughout the consecutive Gospels, it is critical to remember that absolutely nothing was recorded or written about Jesus from either within Christian or non-Christian sources throughout the actual lifetime of Jesus. For a man who performed miracle to thousands, this is simply bewildering.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-30-2004 10:07 PM Gilgamesh has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 55 of 76 (138301)
08-30-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Gilgamesh
08-30-2004 9:26 PM


Gil:
What is your spin on the hundreds of missing planes and ships that disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle ? (without a trace in clear weather)(proof for Atlantis ?)
The proof that a flying saucer crashed at Roswell is a no brainer, why do UFO's and aliens scare you ?
There are simply too many reports worldwide to dismiss UFO's - the only issues are who, what, and why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-30-2004 9:26 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 08-30-2004 10:31 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 57 by Gilgamesh, posted 08-31-2004 1:21 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 08-31-2004 1:46 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 59 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-31-2004 11:18 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 76 (138308)
08-30-2004 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object
08-30-2004 10:07 PM


What is your spin on the hundreds of missing planes and ships that disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle ? (without a trace in clear weather)(proof for Atlantis ?)
It's just like pyramidology and most of the other nonsense myths. There is nothing strange about the so called Bermuda Triangle. Neither Lloyd's of London or the US Coast Guard show any unusual rate of incidents there.
Lloyd's of London and the Bermuda Triangle
Since 1688, Lloyd's Of London has been a leader in Maritime Insurance. As such, Lloyd's has been tracking maritime accidents for over three centuries. Becuase Lloyd's potentially loses money with every shipping accident, they establish insurance rates based on the histories of companies and areas of the ocean.
For instance, ships operating in areas where a history of piracy exists will suffer higher premiums. Ships that operate in areas with hidden reefs or other water obstacles will also suffer higher premiums. Places that seem to have more than the usual number of shipping accidents would also be listed as potential insurance risk. Lloyd's of London does not charge higher premiums for ship operating in the area known as the Bermuda Triangle. Why? Statistically the area is as safe as other areas of the Oceans. They don't insure against myths.
To check I went to Lloyd's site and did a search on Bermuda Triangle. Guess what, no results returned.
start your research here
The proof that a flying saucer crashed at Roswell is a no brainer, why do UFO's and aliens scare you ?
What proof? So far no one has ever been able to bring any evidence forward.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-30-2004 10:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 76 (138337)
08-31-2004 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object
08-30-2004 10:07 PM


Long time no hear.
Hello Willow!
Long time no chat.
Willow writes:

What is your spin on the hundreds of missing planes and ships that disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle ? (without a trace in clear weather)(proof for Atlantis ?)
It's sensationalised mythical wobbly shit. For want of a better term. Jar dealt with it above.
Allowing for inclement weather, I'd gladly sail through the Bermuda Triangle.

The proof that a flying saucer crashed at Roswell is a no brainer, why do UFO's and aliens scare you
They don't scare me. You forget who your talking to. I can't count how many times in my youth I have camped on remote mountain tops, in spooky forests trying to find or invoke alien contact (or any supernatural phenomena, for that matter).
Notice how UFO sightings grew after the advent of aviation, peaked when aviation was inventing wierd experimental stuff and science fiction was a world wide craze, and had now faded into obscurity. Why is that?
Sorry I didn't take your bait, Willow. I know what you're trying to do. You are trying to attribute non-Christian supernatural claims to your fictional Nemisis and Scapegoat, Satan. It is the way you guys deal with conflicting claims.
Of course, to us sceptics, Christian claims are as wacky as the rest: for the same reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-30-2004 10:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Admin, posted 08-31-2004 2:02 PM Gilgamesh has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 58 of 76 (138340)
08-31-2004 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object
08-30-2004 10:07 PM


Back?
Oh you're back WT. A bit late we kinda wrapped you silly pyramid claims since there was no one to defend them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-30-2004 10:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 76 (138418)
08-31-2004 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object
08-30-2004 10:07 PM


There are simply too many reports worldwide to dismiss UFO's - the only issues are who, what, and why.
And much like Christianity, UFOs are largely supported by drunk, inbred rednecks!
HA HA HA!
Okay, sorry, a bit over the line. But way too easy to pass up.

"Archeologists near mount Sinai have discovered what is believed to be a missing page from the Bible. The page is currently being carbon dated in Bonn. If genuine, it belongs at the beginning of the Bible and is believed to read, 'To my darling Candy. All characters portrayed within this book are fictitous, and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.' The page has been universally condemned by church leaders."
-Rob Grant and Doug Naylor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 08-30-2004 10:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Wounded King, posted 08-31-2004 12:50 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 60 of 76 (138475)
08-31-2004 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dan Carroll
08-31-2004 11:18 AM


UFOs are largely supported by drunk, inbred rednecks
Is that cheaper than anti-gravity nowadays?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-31-2004 11:18 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
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