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Author Topic:   Where did the Egyptians come from ?
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 112 (15412)
08-14-2002 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by compmage
08-14-2002 2:06 AM


I try to always use judgement in studying the Bible when someone claims there is a contradiction.
David

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by compmage, posted 08-14-2002 2:06 AM compmage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by John, posted 08-14-2002 9:12 AM halcyonwaters has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 112 (15424)
08-14-2002 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by halcyonwaters
08-14-2002 3:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
How often do you use this method to resolves apparrent contradictions in the Bible?
I try to always use judgement in studying the Bible when someone claims there is a contradiction.
David

But herein is the problem. Your judgement is based on what? Personal preference? Cultural norms? Upbringing? The word of God becomes just another book. The religion becomes the value judgements of the people who interpret the bible.
The word of god should not need interpretation. Surely god is capable of writing precisely what he means.
And think about your choice of words... 'to use judgement' is a version of the verb 'to judge' Are you qualified to judge god's word? Are you comfortable judging god's word?
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 3:49 AM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 2:38 PM John has replied

  
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 112 (15440)
08-14-2002 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by John
08-14-2002 9:12 AM


--But herein is the problem. Your judgement is based on what? Personal preference? Cultural norms? Upbringing?--
You're right, a much better word is logic. But judgement can be used too, if guided by the Lord. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine. We must use judgement in this case. This is a very spiritual matter, so I'll just stick to logic!
My logic is based on the rest of the Bible. I see that elsewhere, God hasn't been concerned with precise numbering of years and measurments. How old was Adam? The Bible says 930 years. The Bible gives the ages of several people. Should I assume God meant to say everyone died on their birthday? If we found the Ark, and it was 50.5 cubits wide, instead of 50... would people call it a contradiction too?
With logic, you can see that 10 cubits and 30 cubits isn't a big deal at all. The Bible always speaks in terms of whole cubits. Are we to believe God wasn't aware you could use half a cubit?
--The word of god should not need interpretation. Surely god is capable of writing precisely what he means.--
Now you're telling God what he should and shouldn't do! Let's look at it another way. "Why would God write the Bible in this manner?" Because it makes for interesting study, don't you think? One of the greatest blessings for me is the Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon -- I get a kick out of seeing a problem or contradiction, studying the Bible, and arriving at an answer.
It also is intended to bring one towards Prayer. You pray, talk to God, and ask for the wisdom necessary to understand what he's trying to say. It is spiritually fulfilling when finally arriving at an answer.
Now, why are there so many different interpretations? I don't know. The important verses are *very* clear though. I can accept I don't understand everything there is that is going on. In some cases though, it's the sin of man that gets in the way. People going in with ideas already in their head. A great example, is people who want the Bible to say that Homosexuality isn't a sin. It clearly does...
Actually, I think an even better example, is people who want the Bible to allow for evolution. It clearly does not. The only reason people think so, is they have gone in with existing ideas, and tried to make scripture fit man's ideas.
--And think about your choice of words... 'to use judgement' is a version of the verb 'to judge' Are you qualified to judge god's word? Are you comfortable judging god's word?--
With an open heart, honesty, and prayer, I absolutely am comfortable judging. I would be uncomfortable, if I went in trying to make it say something that it did not. (i.e. the examples above.) I am also comfortable using logic when studying His word.
David
Editing Notes: I put your qoutes in brackets that made them dissapear. This has been changed!
[This message has been edited by halcyonwaters, 08-14-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by John, posted 08-14-2002 9:12 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by John, posted 08-14-2002 9:08 PM halcyonwaters has replied
 Message 83 by compmage, posted 08-15-2002 2:25 AM halcyonwaters has not replied
 Message 84 by compmage, posted 08-15-2002 2:26 AM halcyonwaters has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 112 (15451)
08-14-2002 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by halcyonwaters
08-14-2002 2:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
You're right, a much better word is logic. But judgement can be used too, if guided by the Lord. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine. We must use judgement in this case. This is a very spiritual matter, so I'll just stick to logic!
I honestly don't know how you can so confidently appeal to logic. The first rule of applied logic is verification of premises. The Bible is your premise and it cannot be verified. Put another way, logic is a system of reasoning from premises. Truth or falsity is irrelevent in logic. All you can know is that an inference does or does not follow from the premises. That something is logical does not mean that it is true, but only that given the premises the conclusion follows.
Therefore, in the real world, logical conclusions are meaningless if the premises cannot be supported.
quote:
I see that elsewhere, God hasn't been concerned with precise numbering of years and measurements.
In principle, I don't have much of a problem with this. People round off numbers, no big deal.
quote:
How old was Adam? The Bible says 930 years. The Bible gives the ages of several people. Should I assume God meant to say everyone died on their birthday?
We to this day follow the same convention. Again, I have no real problem with this.
quote:
If we found the Ark, and it was 50.5 cubits wide, instead of 50... would people call it a contradiction too?
I wouldn't. But the ark has far more serious problems than half a cubit.
quote:
Now you're telling God what he should and shouldn't do!
No I'm not. This is a point that christians I've known don't really seem to get. You are assuming the bible to be god's word so criticism of it equates to criticism of god. I am criticising a book like a hundred others from around the world.
quote:
Let's look at it another way. "Why would God write the Bible in this manner?" Because it makes for interesting study, don't you think?
No. I think it makes for a lot of confusion. Why would god write a book supposedly critical to human salvation, but which is written in such a way that virtually anything can be derived from it?
quote:
One of the greatest blessings for me is the Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon -- I get a kick out of seeing a problem or contradiction, studying the Bible, and arriving at an answer.
Well, you should share some of your insight.
quote:
It also is intended to bring one towards Prayer. You pray, talk to God, and ask for the wisdom necessary to understand what he's trying to say.
And end up having a revelation that pretty much matches what you want to find. This isn't reasonable.
quote:
The important verses are *very* clear though.
Such as?
quote:
I can accept I don't understand everything there is that is going on.
But you accept on faith what priests made up two and half thousand years ago. Why not believe everything you read? I have recently been accused of being snide and satirical. This is a valid question, which has never been answered.
quote:
Actually, I think an even better example, is people who want the Bible to allow for evolution. It clearly does not. The only reason people think so, is they have gone in with existing ideas, and tried to make scripture fit man's ideas.
Interestingly enough the internal textual evidence of the Bible shows this sort of tampering throughout, from Genesis through Revelation. How, then can you take it as fact?
quote:
With an open heart, honesty, and prayer, I absolutely am comfortable judging. I would be uncomfortable, if I went in trying to make it say something that it did not. (i.e. the examples above.) I am also comfortable using logic when studying His word.
And everyone who has ever done terrible things, or things of which you disapprove, in God's name probably felt the same.
The unreliable and subjective nature of this sort of reasoning should be glaringly obvious.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 2:38 PM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 11:15 PM John has replied

  
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 112 (15456)
08-14-2002 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by John
08-14-2002 9:08 PM


John, you're switching gears. Wether the Bible is the word of God or not is completely unrelated to using logic to find out what the Bible teaches.
[QOUTE]No I'm not. This is a point that christians I've known don't really seem to get. You are assuming the bible to be god's word so criticism of it equates to criticism of god. I am criticising a book like a hundred others from around the world.[/QOUTE]
I wasn't commenting on your criticism of the Bible. That was in response to you saying God should have made it more clear. At least that's what I thought you said, if not, I retract what I said.
[QOUTE]
No. I think it makes for a lot of confusion. Why would god write a book supposedly critical to human salvation, but which is written in such a way that virtually anything can be derived from it?[/QOUTE]
The message of salvation is very clear.
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
Doesn't get any simpler than that. And you assume that anything can be derived from it. I say, if you're going in and honestly reading it, you will come to the correct conclusion. If you do scriptural-gymnastics, you can make it say whatever you want.
[Qoute]Well, you should share some of your insight.[/Qoute]
Not sure what you mean. All I'm saying is, by giving us the opportunity to study the Bible, it has brought me together with many people.
[Qoute]And end up having a revelation that pretty much matches what you want to find. This isn't reasonable.[/Qoute]
That's quite an assertion. Do you have any examples of me coming up with what I want to find? This is a spiritual point. If you believe in God, you might believe that God helps those reading the Bible, to understand it. If you don't, then obviously you would come to the conclusion above.
[Qoute]
But you accept on faith what priests made up two and half thousand years ago. Why not believe everything you read? I have recently been accused of being snide and satirical. This is a valid question, which has never been answered.[/Qoute]
This is another topic that doesn't apply to using logic and judgement for determining what a collection of books, Word of God or not actually says.
I'm sorry you were accused of being snide and satirical
David

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by John, posted 08-14-2002 9:08 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by John, posted 08-15-2002 12:06 AM halcyonwaters has not replied
 Message 88 by John, posted 08-15-2002 9:28 PM halcyonwaters has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 112 (15459)
08-15-2002 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by halcyonwaters
08-14-2002 11:15 PM


I'm not up to replying in depth right now but...
quote:
That's quite an assertion. Do you have any examples of me coming up with what I want to find?
I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was just making an observation about the unreliability of the method you choose. You are right. I don't know you and I don't know about the things you have or have not concluded. English doesn't have a proper pronoun for the use I intended. I should have phrased it more carefully but I am very very tired. Sorry.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 11:15 PM halcyonwaters has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 83 of 112 (15462)
08-15-2002 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by halcyonwaters
08-14-2002 2:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

You're right, a much better word is logic. But judgement can be used too, if guided by the Lord. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine. We must use judgement in this case. This is a very spiritual matter, so I'll just stick to logic!

How do you know that you are being guided by the Lord? Who's to say it isn't the devil guiding you, or your own desire/need to have the Bible say x or y?
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

My logic is based on the rest of the Bible. I see that elsewhere, God hasn't been concerned with precise numbering of years and measurments. How old was Adam? The Bible says 930 years. The Bible gives the ages of several people. Should I assume God meant to say everyone died on their birthday? If we found the Ark, and it was 50.5 cubits wide, instead of 50... would people call it a contradiction too?

Personally I don't give a damb if the Bible rounds numbers off or not.
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

Because it makes for interesting study, don't you think?

No, not really.
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

One of the greatest blessings for me is the Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon -- I get a kick out of seeing a problem or contradiction, studying the Bible, and arriving at an answer.

And how are we to know that your interpretation is any more valid than someone elses? YOu could be right, but so could they. Hell, maybe you're both wrong and someone else entirely has the answer.
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

Now, why are there so many different interpretations? I don't know. The important verses are *very* clear though. I can accept I don't understand everything there is that is going on. In some cases though, it's the sin of man that gets in the way. People going in with ideas already in their head. A great example, is people who want the Bible to say that Homosexuality isn't a sin. It clearly does...
Actually, I think an even better example, is people who want the Bible to allow for evolution. It clearly does not. The only reason people think so, is they have gone in with existing ideas, and tried to make scripture fit man's ideas.

And why should I support your interpretation over theirs? What if you are wrong and they are right?
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

With an open heart, honesty, and prayer, I absolutely am comfortable judging. I would be uncomfortable, if I went in trying to make it say something that it did not. (i.e. the examples above.) I am also comfortable using logic when studying His word.

Again. How do you know that what you think the Bible says is the right interpretation? Did God tell you? Are you sure it was God speaking?
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 2:38 PM halcyonwaters has not replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 84 of 112 (15463)
08-15-2002 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by halcyonwaters
08-14-2002 2:38 PM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

You're right, a much better word is logic. But judgement can be used too, if guided by the Lord. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine. We must use judgement in this case. This is a very spiritual matter, so I'll just stick to logic!

How do you know that you are being guided by the Lord? Who's to say it isn't the devil guiding you, or your own desire/need to have the Bible say x or y?
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

My logic is based on the rest of the Bible. I see that elsewhere, God hasn't been concerned with precise numbering of years and measurments. How old was Adam? The Bible says 930 years. The Bible gives the ages of several people. Should I assume God meant to say everyone died on their birthday? If we found the Ark, and it was 50.5 cubits wide, instead of 50... would people call it a contradiction too?

Personally I don't give a damb if the Bible rounds numbers off or not.
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

Because it makes for interesting study, don't you think?

No, not really.
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

One of the greatest blessings for me is the Skeptic's Annotated Bible / Quran / Book of Mormon -- I get a kick out of seeing a problem or contradiction, studying the Bible, and arriving at an answer.

And how are we to know that your interpretation is any more valid than someone elses? YOu could be right, but so could they. Hell, maybe you're both wrong and someone else entirely has the answer.
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

Now, why are there so many different interpretations? I don't know. The important verses are *very* clear though. I can accept I don't understand everything there is that is going on. In some cases though, it's the sin of man that gets in the way. People going in with ideas already in their head. A great example, is people who want the Bible to say that Homosexuality isn't a sin. It clearly does...
Actually, I think an even better example, is people who want the Bible to allow for evolution. It clearly does not. The only reason people think so, is they have gone in with existing ideas, and tried to make scripture fit man's ideas.

And why should I support your interpretation over theirs? What if you are wrong and they are right?
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

With an open heart, honesty, and prayer, I absolutely am comfortable judging. I would be uncomfortable, if I went in trying to make it say something that it did not. (i.e. the examples above.) I am also comfortable using logic when studying His word.

Again. How do you know that what you think the Bible says is the right interpretation? Did God tell you? Are you sure it was God speaking?
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 2:38 PM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-15-2002 5:59 AM compmage has replied

  
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 112 (15473)
08-15-2002 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by compmage
08-15-2002 2:26 AM


--How do you know that you are being guided by the Lord? Who's to say it isn't the devil guiding you, or your own desire/need to have the Bible say x or y?--
I put faith in a God that has revealed the truth about the world to me. You put faith in random chemical processes. In other words, your truth, ultimately comes from an accident. How can you rely on that?
How do you know you're not insane. We're all laughing at you, while you think a conversation is taking place. How do you know everything you say is gibberish to us? How do you know you're not in the Matrix
Silly questions?
David

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by compmage, posted 08-15-2002 2:26 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by RedVento, posted 08-15-2002 10:02 AM halcyonwaters has replied
 Message 90 by compmage, posted 08-16-2002 2:08 AM halcyonwaters has replied

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 112 (15480)
08-15-2002 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by halcyonwaters
08-15-2002 5:59 AM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
--How do you know that you are being guided by the Lord? Who's to say it isn't the devil guiding you, or your own desire/need to have the Bible say x or y?--
I put faith in a God that has revealed the truth about the world to me. You put faith in random chemical processes. In other words, your truth, ultimately comes from an accident. How can you rely on that?
How do you know you're not insane. We're all laughing at you, while you think a conversation is taking place. How do you know everything you say is gibberish to us? How do you know you're not in the Matrix
Silly questions?
David

How about this, I would propose that your finding the bible making perfect sense is due to the fact that you need to have a purpose and meaning in a universe that is so immense that in the scope of things we are really quite meaningless. That is how all religious fervor started, proposing supernatural answers to mundane questions of nature. The bible is no different. After 2000 years of christian indoctoring the bible has turned, for some, into more that what it ever intended to be. It is not God's writing, it is the writing of man about his relationship with god, and how this religion is supposedly "superior" to all others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-15-2002 5:59 AM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-15-2002 3:33 PM RedVento has replied

  
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 112 (15491)
08-15-2002 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by RedVento
08-15-2002 10:02 AM


RedVento, did your post have a purpose? Can you support anything you've said? It looks like it's a bunch of baseless babble. You can believe whatever you want... but to me, you're saying "The sky is purple." Is there some reason I should listen to you? Are you an authority on the matter? I'll try and mirror your post, so you can see what I'm saying.
I would propose that your rejection of the bible is because of your own deceitfulnes. If the Bible is the word of God, then there is an ultimate authority. If there is an ultimate authority, we have moral absolutes, right, and wrong. I would say that your blind, and a slave to sin -- and in your own arrogance, you've decided that you don't want to be responsible to anyone but yourself. You wish to be your own God. Even though you are a prisoner, you feel you have freedom. You see the Bible as a threat to this freedom, so you make assertions in which you could never possibly support. Such as "The bible isn't the word of God," or "The Universe is Big, therefore we are meaningless," or "the only reason religion exists is to create meaning," or "The bible is more than it ever intended to be." By convincing yourself that you have good cause to ignore Bible, you feel you have an excuse just incase the Bible IS the Word of God.
David

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by RedVento, posted 08-15-2002 10:02 AM RedVento has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by RedVento, posted 08-16-2002 11:02 AM halcyonwaters has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 112 (15500)
08-15-2002 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by halcyonwaters
08-14-2002 11:15 PM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:
John, you're switching gears. Wether the Bible is the word of God or not is completely unrelated to using logic to find out what the Bible teaches.
Fair enough. I've made my point.
quote:
The message of salvation is very clear.
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

James 2:24 -- Ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only.
quote:
Doesn't get any simpler than that.
Well, it is simple if you ignore the contradictory bits.
quote:
And you assume that anything can be derived from it.
I do not assume that anything can be derived from ONE verse taken alone. I was talking about the bible as whole. But I think you knew this.
[quote][b]I say, if you're going in and honestly reading it, you will come to the correct conclusion.[/quote]
[b]
So what is the correct conclusion? Belief, or belief and works. Logically, you cannot have both versions be correct.
quote:
Not sure what you mean. All I'm saying is, by giving us the opportunity to study the Bible, it has brought me together with many people.
Pick a verse of import and lets see how we reconcile it with conflicting passages.
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-14-2002 11:15 PM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-16-2002 1:57 AM John has replied

  
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 112 (15505)
08-16-2002 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by John
08-15-2002 9:28 PM


**James 2:24 -- Ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only.**
Please tell me where James says you are saved by your works. Is James teaching contrary to what Christ and Paul taught? Or is he correcting those who would use Paul's teachings as a license for sin?
When in court, if your motive comes into question, your acts are examined. Nothing more than that is said by James. While there are many Christian churches that believe you can lose your salvation, I still maintain they aren't taking a straight-forward approach to scripture.
Often they don't approach it with scripture at all, but with their own reasoning, logic, and ideas about what God should and should not do concerning salvation. I also think it has something to do with pride of wanting to earn their salvation somehow.
David

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by John, posted 08-15-2002 9:28 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by John, posted 08-16-2002 9:10 AM halcyonwaters has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 90 of 112 (15507)
08-16-2002 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by halcyonwaters
08-15-2002 5:59 AM


quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

I put faith in a God that has revealed the truth about the world to me. You put faith in random chemical processes. In other words, your truth, ultimately comes from an accident. How can you rely on that?

I am questioning the basis of you faith. You can't then use faith to justify faith, it is circular.
When did I say I put faith in random chemical processes? What exactly is a random chemical process? If I take hydrogen and oxygen and introduce a spark I get water and if I do it again I get water again. Provided the environment doesn't change I will always get water. How is that random?
quote:
Originally posted by halcyonwaters:

How do you know you're not insane. We're all laughing at you, while you think a conversation is taking place. How do you know everything you say is gibberish to us? How do you know you're not in the Matrix

I don't. However, I have not seen any evidence to suggest that either of these are true. This is not that same as thinking that you have recieved guidence and assuming that it came from God so why bother asking the question when the situations are completely different. Assuming something exists without evidence is not the same as assuming it doesn't exists until you have evidence to the contrary.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-15-2002 5:59 AM halcyonwaters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by halcyonwaters, posted 08-16-2002 8:20 AM compmage has not replied

  
halcyonwaters
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 112 (15517)
08-16-2002 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by compmage
08-16-2002 2:08 AM


<>
You asked me how I know the devil isn't guiding me, on that point they are related.
Anyhow, the point was... we all make a leap of faith. If we didn't, we would be stuck at "I think, therefore I am."
David

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by compmage, posted 08-16-2002 2:08 AM compmage has not replied

  
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