Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Brian and Buz's Exodus debate
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 45 (363187)
11-11-2006 7:56 AM


A few people have expressed interest in the Exodus debate, a couple on the thread itself.
8upwidit2 has expressed an interest through an email and is happy for me to respond here at the forum.
I am sure there are many other issues that will crop up that general members would like to discuss, so I think the thread merits a peanut gallery.
8upwidit2 provided the following response which was hidden at the original thread.
Sorry to interrupt you guys, and I am truly enjoying the exchanges. But we also have to consider another issue in the discussion of time required getting from one place to another.
If there were only 3 feet between each row and 10 people per row, using the 3 million people figure, there would be 300,000 rows encompassing 900,000 feet of people in line..that's 171 miles long.
Assume for arguments sake, they went directly to the Red Sea. If the Red Sea was 120 miles (as Brian stated) from where they left captivity in Egypt, Israelites were already at the Red Sea shore before nearly a million of them even left their starting spot.
How long did it take for the entire group to even leave "captivity"? My fuzzy math tells me the leaving took 29 days if they traveled 24 hours a day.
But if we consider the stopping and camping and just ratting off, they probably traveled only 10-12 hours a day. This doubles the leaving time to 58 days and the last of the group getting to the Red Sea as many as 80 days after the first of the group. The first of the group would have been waiting for the rest to get there for just less than 3 months.
We also know that the pharaoh, whomever he was, "noticed that they had fled" and pursued them. Could this be the epitome of not paying attention to not notice 3 million people leaving for nearly 3 months?
How does this compute with the traveling/camping time listed in Exodus? Isn’t this another issue of the numbers just not working out?
My response is:
The scenario is actually worse than you first suspect. You haven't taken into consideration that for 3 million people we would expect to have around 300 000 cattle of various descriptions as well! Add carts to this and the scenario is even more implausible.
John Bright estimated that the column of Israelites would be well over 300 miles long, and would stretch all the way across the Sinai desert and back again.
There is something far wrong with the number given by the Bible, least of all is the fact that it is impossible for 70 people to become 3 million in just over 430 years (Some texts 215 years).
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 11-11-2006 8:40 AM Brian has replied
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2006 3:48 PM Brian has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 45 (363194)
11-11-2006 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-11-2006 7:56 AM


Which Forum, Brian?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-11-2006 7:56 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-11-2006 3:13 PM AdminPhat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 45 (363239)
11-11-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
11-11-2006 8:40 AM


Accuracy and inerrancy Phat please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 11-11-2006 8:40 AM AdminPhat has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 45 (363348)
11-12-2006 6:18 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 45 (363421)
11-12-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-11-2006 7:56 AM


No real debate
Buz is just repeating other people's ideas. He doesn't seem to be thinking about the issues at all. His most recent message is a joke. WHile he might honestly believe that the Egyptian chronology is flexible enough that 100 years could be added to it, anyone who thinks about it would know that you can't simply combine the reigns of Ahmose and Tuthmosis III. If he shifts Turhmosis III back 100 years to the date he wants - then the Hyksos expulsion has to go back a similar abount and the problem isn't solved at all !
Buz should either make a real effort to engage the evidence - not the claims of dubious sensationalists like Wyatt or Ellis, the actual evidence - or give up and admit defeat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-11-2006 7:56 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 11-12-2006 6:42 PM PaulK has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 6 of 45 (363444)
11-12-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
11-12-2006 3:48 PM


Re: No real debate
I think Buz has painted himself into a corner with these 2 conflicting sources. While he suggests that the chronologies are flexible, his sources are not suggesting this, it is his sources that give the conflicting dates.
If Ahmoses was the pharaoh of the Exodus then the biblical account is a joke because Ahmoses chased the Hyksos all the way across to Saruhen where there followed a 3 year siege by Ahmoses and the Egyptian armies, no mean feat since according to the Bible all of pharaoh's armies perished in the Red Sea! Plus, the Hyksos ruled Egypt, and their empire may even have stretched right across to Syria, it certainly went beyond Egypt. There is simply no parallels between the Hyksos and the Hebrews.
The thing is, I could personally make quite a strong case for there being Hebrews in Egypt during the time we are looking at but the evidence is all circumstantial (BTW Buz hasn't even hinted at any of the top quality sources), there is NO direct evidence of Hebrews in Egypt during the second millenium BCE, this is a fact. Hopefully Buz will soon realise this, but we will wait and see.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2006 3:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2006 7:20 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 8 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-12-2006 7:24 PM Brian has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 45 (363453)
11-12-2006 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
11-12-2006 6:42 PM


Re: No real debate
The only reason for choosing Ahmose is to argue that the Biblical account is a (greatly) distorted memory of the Hyksos expulsion. Which is something that has been argued- but I cannot understand why Buz would want to try to support it. I can only guess that he saw Ellis' dodgy claims about the Tempest stele or "The Exodus Decoded" and didn't think about how far they were stretching things to get as close to the Biblical account as they did - or about how far they were from what the Bible actually says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 11-12-2006 6:42 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ReverendDG, posted 11-13-2006 5:48 AM PaulK has replied

  
8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4445 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 8 of 45 (363455)
11-12-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
11-12-2006 6:42 PM


Re: No real debate
I was raised a Baptist but my father and his father(born just after the U.S. Civil War) always admitted there were serious issues with the stories from the "Good Book", but they did not have guts to make the statement out loud. They simply kept quiet and avoided all the crap.
I was speaking with a 45-year minister. A good and decent man and I asked him questions (similar to the discussions here) that forced him into complete silence. You know that Deer in the Headlight look.
Anything that he would say would have either proved his ignorance of the facts in his Bible that he held in such high regard or either be forced to say "GOD DID IT and that's good enough for me."
Reactions such as these are the ONLY reaction possible for those who have taken the vow...to remain ignorant. The debate, as with Buzz, really seems unfair. It's not Buzz, it's that there are no real comebacks aginast such overwhelming logic and contridictions and history. Buzz is trying but he can't compete. Not that he is not smart and articulate but he has no ammo. A noble, yet losing effort.
Ron

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 11-12-2006 6:42 PM Brian has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 9 of 45 (363536)
11-13-2006 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
11-12-2006 7:20 PM


Re: No real debate
Ellis doesn't even know what he is talking about, and buz shouldn't use the guy as a source of anything, the tempest stele is about a huge storm that was pretty rememberable, i read the effects of an erupting volcano caused it, which might explain the so called "Darkness" ellis claims
its sad that people still perpetualate the belief that the hykos were somehow related to the hebrews, because an egyptian historian messed up and called them "Sheperd-kings". some how this makes them the jews?
its funny how people have no problem shifting the timeline while ignoring outside damage they do to other parts of the timeline that have nothing to do with what they want to change

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2006 7:20 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2006 6:06 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 45 (363537)
11-13-2006 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by ReverendDG
11-13-2006 5:48 AM


Re: No real debate
Wyatt's just as crazy - and untrustworthy - as Ellis. But what's really crazy is trying to use Wyatt's "archeology" to support Ellis' claims to try to prove the Bible right ! Ellis disagees with both Wyatt and the Bible. It's not just a case of using dodgy sources without checking them - it's a case of trying to use a dodgy source which argues AGAINST the position Buz wants to defend.
It's typical fundmanetalist behaviour. Rather than trying to construct a consistent position and understand the evidence Buz is just grabbing anything he likes the look of without caring how it fits - or rather doesn't fit - together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ReverendDG, posted 11-13-2006 5:48 AM ReverendDG has not replied

  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 11 of 45 (363695)
11-14-2006 1:11 AM


what makes us think there were 10 people per row, 3 feet difference between rows, and the measurements written in the bible are the same as american measurements?

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 11-14-2006 2:48 PM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 13 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-14-2006 3:27 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 45 (363788)
11-14-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Juraikken
11-14-2006 1:11 AM


what makes us think there were 10 people per row,
I actually think ten per row is excesive and that (as John Bright) four per row is more realistic.
Remember that all they had to do was come to a narrow path and they were going to bottleneck.
3 feet difference between rows, and the measurements written in the bible are the same as american measurements?
No, but we do know how to convert biblical measurements in to US/UK measurements.
A cubit is about 18 inches, not difficult to work out.
Also, 3 feet between rows is not at all plausible, at least not between all rows. The Israelites would have had hundreds of thousands of animals with them and tens of thousands of carts as well. The column would extend for close on 400 miles.
It is ridiculous.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Juraikken, posted 11-14-2006 1:11 AM Juraikken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 11-14-2006 3:32 PM Brian has not replied

  
8upwidit2
Member (Idle past 4445 days)
Posts: 88
From: Katrinaville USA
Joined: 02-03-2005


Message 13 of 45 (363794)
11-14-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Juraikken
11-14-2006 1:11 AM


American verses UK measurements
Juraikken, those measurements/spacings/groupings were just a way to get an idea about the incredible epic spectacle this would have to be.
Whether it was metric or feet or leagues or cubits or whatever, the Exodus story is absolute lunacy like all the rest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Juraikken, posted 11-14-2006 1:11 AM Juraikken has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 14 of 45 (363796)
11-14-2006 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
11-14-2006 2:48 PM


Brian writes:
The column would extend for close on 400 miles.
I suppose that would help to explain the forty years in the wilderness. The column would take that long to pass any given point.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 11-14-2006 2:48 PM Brian has not replied

  
Juraikken
Member (Idle past 6188 days)
Posts: 82
From: Winnetka, CA
Joined: 11-13-2006


Message 15 of 45 (363853)
11-15-2006 3:57 AM


well heres what i think happened
1. there probably were lets say 6 per row, ok?
2. they didnt go toward the red sea in a complete straight line, what if they went teh extremely long way due to probably governmental problems that might have happened in neighboring countries. we dont know. and that would probably explain the length of time and the length of the people. im sure many people didnt make it in the trip.
3. by the time they reached the shore, they all gathered around it and wondered what to do, then the Egyptians took a while to catch up becuase they encountered obstacles like the jews did.
4. by the time they crossed the red sea the egyptians were almost on their tail.
now this is an assumption cuz usually when people travel they dont go in a straight line, i've noticed many airplanes, and cruisliners take routes that would lengthen the trip rather than make a straight line. What if the Jews went to neighboring villages to regroup and get food or sumthing i dont know. if im wrong please tell me! i dont want to false accuse.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 11-15-2006 11:02 AM Juraikken has not replied
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 11-15-2006 3:21 PM Juraikken has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024