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Author Topic:   Tower of Babble (a bunch of baseless babble)
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 181 of 198 (291797)
03-03-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Joman
03-03-2006 10:00 AM


A Snake is just a Snake
quote:
...states directly that, the "old serpent" is called the Devil and Satan. The phrase "old serpent" derectly associates the great dragon with the serpent in the garden of Eden.
Just because Satan/Devil is referred to as an old dragon in a vision doesn't make the snake in Genesis Satan.
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
The serpent in Genesis is a beast of the field.
Satan isn't mentioned until Job where he is not described as a beast of the field, but apparently a member of the heavenly household.
Job 1:7
The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come ?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
I agree with ramoss that the Ancient Dragon is probably referring to the Leviathan.
Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Given that there was roughly 700 years between the Isaiah verse and Revelation, that is a pretty old dragon. IMO, the symbolism was going for the dragon, not the snake of the garden.
As for the Tower of Babel, is a nice story on why we all speak different languages.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 10:00 AM Joman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 2:13 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
Joman
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 198 (291815)
03-03-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by ringo
03-03-2006 10:25 AM


Re: The Tower of Babel
Joman writes:
The context of any Bible verse is within the context of the whole Bible.
Ringo writes:
If you start off with that premise, the discussion is going to become way too broad. Since these topics have a limited length (~300 posts), it would be best to limit your comments to the nearby context - i.e. Genesis.
Then you are not able to properly discuss the Bible. The reason for this is due to the fact that the book has one author. That author is the Holy Spirit. Also, private opinion and loose interpretation is avoided by allowing God to speak for himself. Like it or not the book of Revelation resolves many issues first mentioned in Genesis. What I do affirm is that my contextual use of the whole Bible will be appropriate to any debate issues. This isn't any different than the use of every resource available on the net when debating other issues. I get the impression that you perceive the need for some amount of unfair advantage on your part. Is this true?
Joman writes:
I pointed out that mankind still today seeks to erase all mention of the Deluge.
Ringo writes:
Well, all "mention" of the Deluge - at least all physical evidence of it - has been erased. There isn't any. But that's a different topic. Please stick to the Tower of Babel. There are plenty of other threads where you can discuss the flood.
The evidence of the Deluge is everywhere upon the surface of the earth and beneath. I didn't introduce the additional topic of the Deluge. But, I reserve the right to respond to such comments until a moderator says different.
Joman writes:
Note that mankind set out to begin to do their own will instead of God’s stated will. This is what put mankind in danger.
Ringo writes:
But mankind had already started out to do their own will back in the garden of Eden, when they ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was doing their own will that caused God to flood the earth.
This is true. How does the continuous self-will of mankind (which is contrary to God's will)throughout all of history impact this discussion? I'm the one that pointed out that man at this present hour is still seeking to attack the authenticity of the Bible. I only stated this because it established the fact that what mankind was attempting to do in the tower of Babel instance was and still is nothing new and is therefore expected of the enemies of God.
Ringo writes:
To paraphrase the question in the OP: What made the Tower of Babel special?
It's historical authenticity.
It's impact upon mankind's understanding of humanity and world view.
It's reference to todays global politics.
Ringo writes:
I should also point out that this is a science forum, not a Bible study forum (you can find that a few inches down from here). Discussions here should be about the actual evidence for the Tower of Babel - not your interpretation of the Bible.
Then why didn't you jump on the scientific aspect of my comments? Or, perhaps you should establish scientific evidence that the tower of Babel never existed. I think we should, either, have a moderator void this debate or define it's parameters, debate it (as is), or move on.
Nevertheless, my opinion is that some latitude should be allowed.
That archeaology has not found the remnants of the tower of Babel isn't debatable is it?
Joman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 03-03-2006 10:25 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 198 (291824)
03-03-2006 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Joman
03-03-2006 12:46 PM


And so the Admin speaks.
The evidence of the Deluge is everywhere upon the surface of the earth and beneath. I didn't introduce the additional topic of the Deluge. But, I reserve the right to respond to such comments until a moderator says different.
It is Off Topic and there is a whole forum devoted to the subject called Geology and the Great Flood. If you have any evidence that there was a world-wide flood, particularly within the last few million years please take it there.
It's historical authenticity.
It's impact upon mankind's understanding of humanity and world view.
It's reference to todays global politics.
You are in the Science forums now. Over here you are expected to provide some support and evidence and not just unfounded assertions.
Please take any discussion of this post to the appropriate thread.

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  • This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 184 of 198 (291826)
    03-03-2006 1:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 182 by Joman
    03-03-2006 12:46 PM


    Re: The Tower of Babel
    Joman writes:
    I get the impression that you perceive the need for some amount of unfair advantage on your part. Is this true?
    No. I perceive the need to get to the point. Only a hundred or so posts to go and you've still said little or nothing about the Tower of Babel.
    The evidence of the Deluge is everywhere upon the surface of the earth and beneath.
    We constantly have people making that claim, but they never deliver. Please take it to an appropriate thread.
    what mankind was attempting to do in the tower of Babel instance was and still is nothing new and is therefore expected of the enemies of God.
    The point of the thread would seem to be that the Tower of Babel was something "new" (according to the Biblical account), and therefore its story was worthy of inclusion in the Bible. We are trying to discuss what is special about the Tower - as opposed to the dozens of other ziggurats in Mesopotamia. This is not a discussion about the general condition of mankind.
    What made the Tower of Babel special?
    It's historical authenticity.
    Sure, the Tower is authenic. So are dozens of others. Why that one specifically?
    And what is not historically authentic is the dispersion of peoples and the origin of languages. If you claim they are authentic, you must provide outside evidence. This is a science forum.
    ... perhaps you should establish scientific evidence that the tower of Babel never existed.
    But the Tower did exist. Nobody disputes that. If the specific ziggurat of Babylon has not been found (?), many others have been found.
    What you need scientific evidence for is the dispersion of peoples and the origin of langauges.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 182 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 12:46 PM Joman has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 187 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 2:42 PM ringo has replied

      
    Joman
    Inactive Member


    Message 185 of 198 (291843)
    03-03-2006 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 181 by purpledawn
    03-03-2006 11:57 AM


    Re: A Snake is just a Snake
    Joman writes:
    ...states directly that, the "old serpent" is called the Devil and Satan. The phrase "old serpent" derectly associates the great dragon with the serpent in the garden of Eden.
    Purpledawn writes:
    Just because Satan/Devil is referred to as an old dragon in a vision doesn't make the snake in Genesis Satan.
    True. But, you have disregarded the clear statement made in the Revelation as to the identity of (1)the great dragon (2)the Devil and (3) Satan.
    You also changed "great" to "old".
    Purpledawn's Bible quote writes:
    Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
    The word "crafty" is weak. "Subtle" is the more precise and deeper word. Is the distinction to slight for your discernment?
    Purpledawn writes:
    The serpent in Genesis is a beast of the field.
    True.
    Purpledawn writes:
    Satan isn't mentioned until Job where he is not described as a beast of the field, but apparently a member of the heavenly household.
    The point the quote from Revelation makes is that this opinion of yours is false. Satan was revealed by that quote to be (as many suspected) the old serpent who was in the garden of Eden. If all else fails you...try..the process of elimination.
    That Satan isn't described as the "old serpent" in all verses referring to him is due to his many notable attributes.
    Purpledawn's quote writes:
    Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come ?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
    The AV states...
    Job 1:7 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
    Note the subtle lie in your version and the redundancy the lie requires?
    "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
    "Roaming about" implies aimless wandering.
    "Walking around on it" adds nothing informative and leads a reader to think that Satan isn't only aimless but, also, one who goes in circles.
    God uses the English language far more precisely than you may realize.
    Consider that:
    "Going to and fro in the earth" and "walking up and down in it" precisely describes the orderly manner in which Satan investigates the earth for his own purposes.
    "To and fro" describes a horizontal search.
    "Up and Down" describes a vertical search.
    Together the phrases reveal that Satan had access to all aspects of the earth.
    The word "in" reveals that Satan doesn't have an outsider's viewpoint even though he's an alien to this planet.
    The word "in" also reveals that Satan keeps account of the living as well as the dead.
    You may not know that Satan was looking for the man whom God prophesied would be the "crusher" of his head (intellect and headship). He was led by God to suspect that Job was that man.
    Purpledawn writes:
    I agree with ramoss that the Ancient Dragon is probably referring to the Leviathan.
    And, how will you ever be certain since it's mere opinion proposed in disregard of an clear and unambiguous scriptural statement?
    And, you changed "great dragon" to "ancient dragon". There may be many ancient dragons and, one great dragon.
    Purpledawn's quote writes:
    Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
    This scripture doesn't in any way contradict the fact that "the old serpent" is called "the Devil" and "Satan". Satan has many names. Nevertheless, he has only one hidden name that belongs only to him.
    Purpledawn writes:
    Given that there was roughly 700 years between the Isaiah verse and Revelation, that is a pretty old dragon. IMO, the symbolism was going for the dragon, not the snake of the garden.
    Your opinion of the symbolism is unsubstantiated by any clear biblical reference. Your Isaiah quote, as well as your Job quote, fail to reveal whom leviathan is. One thing that is obvious however, is the lack of a capitalized "L" which would show that the leviathan in question is a particular person.
    In contrast; the Revelation quote I used, clearly personalizes the "old serpent" as a particular person by use of the capitalized titles "Devil" and "Satan".
    Purpledawn writes:
    As for the Tower of Babel, is a nice story on why we all speak different languages.
    Although your free to do so, if your going to be this shallow in your analysis and opinion why waste your time and others as well?
    Joman.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 181 by purpledawn, posted 03-03-2006 11:57 AM purpledawn has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 186 by AdminJar, posted 03-03-2006 2:33 PM Joman has replied

      
    AdminJar
    Inactive Member


    Message 186 of 198 (291847)
    03-03-2006 2:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 185 by Joman
    03-03-2006 2:13 PM


    Really try to stay on topic, please.
    The topic realates to the Tower of Babble. Anything else like snakes and Satan and revelations is Off Topic.
    If you have anything to contribute realted to the Tower of Babble, then fine. Please remember that we are in the Science forums and so some support for your position is needed.

    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 185 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 2:13 PM Joman has replied

    Replies to this message:
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    Joman
    Inactive Member


    Message 187 of 198 (291848)
    03-03-2006 2:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 184 by ringo
    03-03-2006 1:11 PM


    Re: The Tower of Babel
    Joman writes:
    The evidence of the Deluge is everywhere upon the surface of the earth and beneath.
    Ringo writes:
    We constantly have people making that claim, but they never deliver. Please take it to an appropriate thread.
    I'm sorry but I may not comment on this.
    Joman writes:
    what mankind was attempting to do in the tower of Babel instance was and still is nothing new and is therefore expected of the enemies of God.
    Ringo writes:
    The point of the thread would seem to be that the Tower of Babel was something "new" (according to the Biblical account), and therefore its story was worthy of inclusion in the Bible. We are trying to discuss what is special about the Tower - as opposed to the dozens of other ziggurats in Mesopotamia. This is not a discussion about the general condition of mankind.
    Ringo writes:
    What made the Tower of Babel special?
    Joman writes:
    It's historical authenticity.
    Ringo writes:
    Sure, the Tower is authenic. So are dozens of others. Why that one specifically?
    It has the witness of an historical document. And, the context of the story associated with it.
    Ringo writes:
    And what is not historically authentic is the dispersion of peoples and the origin of languages. If you claim they are authentic, you must provide outside evidence. This is a science forum.
    The evidence is in itself the origin of nations and the many languages that exist. This is the point I made that you have all been avoiding. The scientific community has no explaination for either one. For example..."What came first? The nations or the languages?
    Joman writes:
    ... perhaps you should establish scientific evidence that the tower of Babel never existed.
    Ringo writes:
    But the Tower did exist. Nobody disputes that. If the specific ziggurat of Babylon has not been found (?), many others have been found.
    Here you state the "tower did exist" and then question the validity of any specific proof of it.
    You conclude with some vague logic that implies that, if other towers existed then the actual and specific discovery of the Tower isn't required. All the while claiming to be scientific?
    The witness of the Bible is far weightier than your logic.
    Ringo writes:
    What you need scientific evidence for is the dispersion of peoples and the origin of langauges.
    I accept the validity of the Bible as a historical document. Wherein, the dispersion of the languages and the division of the nations is clearly explained. The explaination of which there is no scientific contradiction.
    You, on the otherhand have provided no competing scientific explaination for either.
    Joman.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 184 by ringo, posted 03-03-2006 1:11 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 189 by ringo, posted 03-03-2006 3:04 PM Joman has replied

      
    Joman
    Inactive Member


    Message 188 of 198 (291850)
    03-03-2006 2:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 186 by AdminJar
    03-03-2006 2:33 PM


    Re: Really try to stay on topic, please.
    AdminJar writes:
    The topic relates to the Tower of Babble. Anything else like snakes and Satan and revelations is Off Topic.
    If you have anything to contribute realted to the Tower of Babble, then fine. Please remember that we are in the Science forums and so some support for your position is needed.
    I will comply.
    Thank you.
    Joman.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 186 by AdminJar, posted 03-03-2006 2:33 PM AdminJar has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 189 of 198 (291853)
    03-03-2006 3:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 187 by Joman
    03-03-2006 2:42 PM


    Re: The Tower of Babel
    Joman writes:
    It has the witness of an historical document.
    But that document has not been authenticated. You need to provide outside evidence that it is authentic. (Yes, we have threads for that, too. )
    The evidence is in itself the origin of nations and the many languages that exist.
    No offense, but that's just silly. The nations exist, therefore any old story about them must be true? England exists, too, but does that make Alice's Adventures in Wonderland true?
    The scientific community has no explaination for either one. For example..."What came first? The nations or the languages?
    The scientific community has plenty of explanations, but they are - guess what - OFF TOPIC. The topic here is the BIBLE story of the Tower of Babel and how it can (or can not) be authenticated, BY SCIENTIFIC MEANS. That is the topic we are trying to guide you towards.
    ... you state the "tower did exist" and then question the validity of any specific proof of it....
    No. For the purpose of this discussion, nobody is claiming that the Tower did not exist. Because other, similar towers do exist to this day, we have no reason to think that there wasn't one in Babylon.
    What we are questioning in this topic is what was different about that particular tower? Why did the building of that one particular tower provoke God to the point where He decided to disperse mankind to the ends of the earth and confound their languages? And - more important - where is the evidence that all peoples diverged from that single location in Mesopotamia (presumably 6000-odd years ago)? Where is the evidence that all languages developed from a single source at that same time?
    I accept the validity of the Bible as a historical document.
    That doesn't matter here. We're looking for outside evidence here.
    The explaination of which there is no scientific contradiction.
    Then provide the evidence which shows there is no contradiction.
    You, on the otherhand have provided no competing scientific explaination for either.
    Once again, the topic is about the lack of outside corroborating evidence to confirm the historic authenticity of the Tower of Babel story.
    I am not required to convince you that the cupboard is bare. You are required to show us what is in the cupboard.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 187 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 2:42 PM Joman has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 190 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 3:35 PM ringo has replied

      
    Joman
    Inactive Member


    Message 190 of 198 (291870)
    03-03-2006 3:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 189 by ringo
    03-03-2006 3:04 PM


    Re: The Tower of Babel
    Ringo,
    You do not seem to comprehend that science...Science...hasn't any explaination for the diversity of languages nor the existence of nations.
    This leaves the Bible with the only written account and explanation for both. And, that testimony is without any scientific contradiction.
    And that is why all of you have avoided any SCIENTIFIC discussion whatsoever concerning the evolution of languages and nations.
    When you can show otherwise I'll get back with you.
    Joman.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 189 by ringo, posted 03-03-2006 3:04 PM ringo has replied

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 191 of 198 (291874)
    03-03-2006 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 190 by Joman
    03-03-2006 3:35 PM


    Re: The Tower of Babel
    *sigh*
    Joman,
    Science DOES have the explanations, but that is not the topic here.
    The Bible is NOT the only alternative, and even if it was IT IS NOT EVIDENCE.
    The only one avoiding scientific discussion is you.
    Nobody is required to show any alternative. You are required to show - as the topic demands - that the Bible story is authentic.
    If you can not do so, you are welcome to withdraw.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 190 by Joman, posted 03-03-2006 3:35 PM Joman has not replied

      
    sinamatic
    Member (Idle past 4145 days)
    Posts: 67
    From: Traverse City, MI usa
    Joined: 03-10-2006


    Message 192 of 198 (293854)
    03-10-2006 4:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 15 by mark24
    02-16-2002 5:17 PM


    It is my opinion that once again man was trying to get to God by his own means. Man was arrogant and thought he could outsmart God or compete on his level. This might be why God changed their languages. At that time in history, man didn't have anything good to say anyway. After all, they were trying to build a tower to heaven! They probably didn't build it on a mountain because of weather and food restrictions. Anyway you look at it, it was just another dumb idea. It's not the first time in history, men did something stupid.
    However, you can only take two sides. You can try to prove the Bible's validity or disprove it. That's why the Bible talks about faith so much. Either way you'll prove your point to yourself. Life itself is a miracle, why not believe other miracles happened?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by mark24, posted 02-16-2002 5:17 PM mark24 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 193 by mark24, posted 03-10-2006 6:20 AM sinamatic has not replied
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    mark24
    Member (Idle past 5196 days)
    Posts: 3857
    From: UK
    Joined: 12-01-2001


    Message 193 of 198 (293866)
    03-10-2006 6:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 192 by sinamatic
    03-10-2006 4:35 AM


    Broken,
    You can try to prove the Bible's validity or disprove it.
    I accept things that are supported by evidence. The bible isn't, so I don't accept. It is your job to show it's true, not my job to falsify it.
    That's why the Bible talks about faith so much.
    The bible talks about faith because it want's you to accept it without evidence. If the bible had evidence it would preferentially talk about it rather than faith.
    Mark

    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by sinamatic, posted 03-10-2006 4:35 AM sinamatic has not replied

      
    Chiroptera
    Inactive Member


    Message 194 of 198 (293889)
    03-10-2006 8:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 192 by sinamatic
    03-10-2006 4:35 AM


    quote:
    Anyway you look at it, it was just another dumb idea.
    So why not let the project fail on its own merits without intervening? That would seem to be a great lesson; humanity's ideas are so dumb, that God doesn't even have to do anything for it to fail.
    Instead, God gives in to his own insecurities and is compelled to act. Why tip his hand and admit that he dislikes and even fears humans?

    "Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by sinamatic, posted 03-10-2006 4:35 AM sinamatic has not replied

      
    bibbo
    Inactive Member


    Message 195 of 198 (313319)
    05-18-2006 7:37 PM


    ...continuing...
    Continuing on from a premise I set up in post 91...
    Since the last time I posted, I bought a 2-volume history book set from the late 1800s called, "The History Of All Nations", by Samuel Griswold Goodrich. The primary purpose was to look into the death of Semiramis. Since there are absolutely no reprints of this material, I've provided the following for your reading enjoyment...
    http://www.geocities.com/...ibbo/thehistoryofallnations.html
    Comments are welcome,

    Replies to this message:
     Message 196 by ReverendDG, posted 05-18-2006 9:24 PM bibbo has replied

      
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