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Author Topic:   Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 121 of 131 (500615)
02-28-2009 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
02-27-2009 11:39 PM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
quote:
Not only that, but here we have the very nations which were prophesied in place poised to destroy Israel and wipe them off the map and you can't even see that. How intellectually blind can you be?
He can't see it because it isn't true.
quote:
To top it off, the prophecy will be fulfilled in a time when walls are not a factor in defense of the cities.
No, it claims that walls WILL be a significant factor in defense. The ABSENCE of walls is taken as a sign of weakness and vulnerability. Which can only be the case if defensive walls are the norm.
quote:
Plus we have so many other end time corroborating prophecies either being fulfilled or which have been fulfilled; things like global government powers over all nations. Obama is all for that one with high ambitions for global authority. I've cited prophesied one world monetary system of marks and numbers, unthought of in ancient days as globally imposed upon all nations, tribes and tongues.
I don't see any sign that Obama wants more global authority than Bush.
As for the rest the fact that your misrepresentations of the current situation match your misrepresentations of the Bible hardly prove that prophecy is being fulfilled !
quote:
Add to the above the prophesied ability of all nations viewing one event in one spot on the planet. I've cited all of these and you and about every one else here who claim to be educated intellectuals still dogmatically deny the evidence I've cited. What else can I say?
Because we've shown that you've misrepresented the Bible there, too.
What else can we say ? Your "prophecy" fulfilments rely on cherry-picking the bits that suit you - and usually twisting even those. So of course we don't agree. No honest person could.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 02-27-2009 11:39 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 12:27 AM PaulK has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 131 (500625)
02-28-2009 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Coyote
02-27-2009 11:55 PM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
Coyote writes:
Because I've yet to be convinced that prophesy is anything other than vague generalities only subsequently interpreted to apply to specific events.
The Oracle at Delphi was just as accurate.
It is only your belief that makes you argue in favor of these prophesies; in spite of the post title, "Hard empirical evidence" is lacking. Otherwise you could tie specific prophesies to specific events long in advance. The track record of believers doing this over the past 2,000 years is probably worse than chance. And its always, "But we're sure this time!""
Coyote please reread carefully what you have last posted. There's not one thing in your message specifying anything relative to the prophecies that I've covered. You remind me of the child that keeps on repeating, "just because" when asked for a reason why.
Don't you think it's phenomenal for a nation of ancient people to be scattered into nations worldwide for 19 long centuries and to suddenly return to their homeland to establish it again?
Don't you think it's phenomenal for this nation to be surrounded by the very nations which the prophecy says will seek the destruction of the new nation?
Don't you think it's phenomenal that this little nation will emerge at a time when global government is in the making and when marks and numbers become significant globally for the first time in history at precisely the same era that the new nation is formed?
Don't you think it's phenomenal that all of this and so much more prophesied for the last days is slated for what the various prophecies call the "end times" or the "latter days?"
Don't you think it's phenomenal that not only the OT prophets forsaw this re-emergence of the Jews back in their land, but that Jesus, the prophesied messiah would also make the prediction that the gentile nations would no longer occupy Jerusalem and that he, the Jew would return to be the messiah of that nation as prophesied, corroborating with the Ezekiel prophecies and others?
I could go on and on and on about corroborating evidence that non of the other so called prophets that you cite have nothing anywhere near the track record of the Biblical record.
Why am I needing to repeat all of this to you people who keep on keeping on denying the evidence?
You people have reduced your replies to this classic example of yours which is nothing but "just because." How about something of substance if you have something to contribute to the thread?
You allege it's "just your belief." It's not just my belief. It's hard evidence that I have produced. It's just your bulligerant denial of the facts that we're dealing with here.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Fix username.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Coyote, posted 02-27-2009 11:55 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 131 (501193)
03-05-2009 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
02-28-2009 2:04 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
Paulk writes:
Buzsaw writes:
Not only that, but here we have the very nations which were prophesied in place poised to destroy Israel and wipe them off the map and you can't even see that. How intellectually blind can you be?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He can't see it because it isn't true.
How so? Please explain.
Buz:
To top it off, the prophecy will be fulfilled in a time when walls are not a factor in defense of the cities.
Paulk:
No, it claims that walls WILL be a significant factor in defense. The ABSENCE of walls is taken as a sign of weakness and vulnerability. Which can only be the case if defensive walls are the norm.
But the prophet likely had no concept of not needing walls for defense. The important point is that walls were the norm for ancient days. Ezekiel knew the cities had walls when he wrote the prophecy. He assumed they would be needed forever, evidently. But he forsees a time when there would be no walls or that cities would be expanded beyond the ancient walls. That is what makes the prophecy way out in the future for fulfillment. The fulfillment would not come until the latter days when walls would not be in place for the purpose of defense.
PaulK writes:
don't see any sign that Obama wants more global authority than Bush.
As for the rest the fact that your misrepresentations of the current situation match your misrepresentations of the Bible hardly prove that prophecy is being fulfilled !
What? Don't you remember Obama's global sweep campaigning overseas during the campaign. Are you aware that he says he wants to redistribute America's wealth globally via the UN? Obama is a self avowed globalist big time. His ambitions are global, even more so than nationally. Watch and see if I'm not right on this.
PaulK writes:
What else can we say ? Your "prophecy" fulfillments rely on cherry-picking the bits that suit you - and usually twisting even those. So of course we don't agree. No honest person could.
What? Who cherry picks? Coyote, you and others when it comes to the prophecies. I've corroborated many prophecies. The focus on this thread is not on a verse or two. It's on four long chapters, all of which are sequenced from the prophecy concerning the enemies, prophecy of the land/hills and valleys, prophecy of the return of the people, prophecy of the invasion/Armageddon and finally the prophecy of the destruction of the invading nations. Furthermore, all of this is corroborated by other prophets like Zechariah and Isaiah, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 02-28-2009 2:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2009 1:54 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 124 of 131 (501195)
03-05-2009 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
03-05-2009 12:27 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
quote:
How so? Please explain.
Other than the geography in what way IS it true ? In what way is Ethiopia a major threat to Israel ?
quote:
But the prophet likely had no concept of not needing walls for defense. The important point is that walls were the norm for ancient days. Ezekiel knew the cities had walls when he wrote the prophecy. He assumed they would be needed forever, evidently. But he forsees a time when there would be no walls or that cities would be expanded beyond the ancient walls. That is what makes the prophecy way out in the future for fulfillment. The fulfillment would not come until the latter days when walls would not be in place for the purpose of defense.
But there is no description of the lack of walls as a generally being true. It is supposedly special enough to be remarked on- by the people of the future time. And in the present day it isn't - its the norm.
quote:
What? Don't you remember Obama's global sweep campaigning overseas during the campaign. Are you aware that he says he wants to redistribute America's wealth globally via the UN? Obama is a self avowed globalist big time. His ambitions are global, even more so than nationally. Watch and see if I'm not right on this.
In the sense of wanting a global government ? Not likely. That's a pipe dream. There's no chance of it happening in the forseeable future. Engaging with other nations on a diplomatic and economic level is a long way from setting up a world state.
quote:
What? Who cherry picks? Coyote, you and others when it comes to the prophecies.
No. It is quite definitely and clearly you.
You want to leave out Daniel 8:21-23 because they clearly place Daniel's End Times in the Hellenistic period.
You want to take Luke's prophecy of a return from Exile out of context so you can ignore the fact that Luke's version of the Olivet discourse places the exile itself after the Tribulation (Luke 21:20-24). And the fact that the fulfillment of the entire prophecy is to occur within the time of a generation (Luke 21:32). And just forget about comparing it with the versions in Matthew and Mark !
That is real cherry-picking. You won't find me doing that.
quote:
I've corroborated many prophecies.
I think the word you are looking for is "misrepresented". That would make your statement actually true. [/quote] The focus on this thread is not on a verse or two. It's on four long chapters, all of which are sequenced from the prophecy concerning the enemies, prophecy of the land/hills and valleys, prophecy of the return of the people, prophecy of the invasion/Armageddon and finally the prophecy of the destruction of the invading nations. Furthermore, all of this is corroborated by other prophets like Zechariah and Isaiah, etc. [/quote]
But you ignore parts of those chapters that you do not like. For instance you ignore the fact that Ezekiel 35:5 states that the Edomites are to be punished for things that they have already done at the time the prophecy is written. You attribute the words describing ancient weaponry to the prophet when the text says that the words come directly from God (Ezekiel 38:1-4 for just one example). That's cherry-picking

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 12:27 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 9:45 PM PaulK has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 131 (501373)
03-05-2009 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PaulK
03-05-2009 1:54 AM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
PaulK writes:
Other than the geography in what way IS it true ? In what way is Ethiopia a major threat to Israel ?
The Jerusalem Post says best why Ethiopia is listed among the enemies of Israel slated for the fulfillment of this prophecy. Most of North Africa will likely align with Russia and the Mid East Islamic pac for UN dominancy and for this prophesied Armageddon event.
Jerusalem Post writes:
Islamism's Accidental Midwives
Feb. 18, 2009
Ethiopian communism suppressed the Ethiopian Orthodox church, but ignored the rise of Islamism in parts of Ethiopia, such as among the Oromo and their Islamic Front for the Liberation of Oromia. Thus communism did not support a rise in Islamism but served unintentionally as its incubator in some cases. Communist atheist zeal usually assaulted the majority religions its leaders were familiar with, such as Orthodoxy and Buddhism, ignoring Islam and the growth of Islamist groups.
(sorry-link does not work)
Attention Required! | Cloudflare
PaulK writes:
But there is no description of the lack of walls as a generally being true. It is supposedly special enough to be remarked on- by the people of the future time. And in the present day it isn't - its the norm.
I was reading the prophet Zechariah for my daily Bible reading this AM. I came across this from Zechariah 2:3-5 which corroborates Ezekiel relative to the unwalled villages and clarifies this controversy.
Zechariah (ASV) writes:
3 And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, 4 and said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as villages without walls, by reason of the multitude of men and cattle therein. 5 For I, saith Jehovah, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and I will be the glory in the midst of her.
(Embolding mine for emphasis)
PaulK writes:
In the sense of wanting a global government ? Not likely. That's a pipe dream. There's no chance of it happening in the foreseeable future. Engaging with other nations on a diplomatic and economic level is a long way from setting up a world state.
You just watch, Paul and see how global Obama takes us. It's a matter of time (sooner than we hope) that the planet will be subject to oppressive global mandates.
Paul, relative to the cherry picking, you're so irrational that further response is useless.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 03-05-2009 1:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 03-06-2009 1:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 126 of 131 (501404)
03-06-2009 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
03-05-2009 9:45 PM


Re: Hard empirical evidence
quote:
The Jerusalem Post says best why Ethiopia is listed among the enemies of Israel slated for the fulfillment of this prophecy. Most of North Africa will likely align with Russia and the Mid East Islamic pac for UN dominancy and for this prophesied Armageddon event.
Except the Jerusalem Post doesn't say any of that, according to your quote. What it says is that communism in Ethiopia has inadvertently helped the rise of Islamism in that nation.
So you have zero evidence that Ethiopia is a significant threat to Israel. My point is proved.
quote:
I was reading the prophet Zechariah for my daily Bible reading this AM. I came across this from Zechariah 2:3-5 which corroborates Ezekiel relative to the unwalled villages and clarifies this controversy.
More cherry picking. If you read the start of the prophecy in Zechariah 1 you will see that it refers to return from the Babylonian exile (1:12-16)
quote:
You just watch, Paul and see how global Obama takes us. It's a matter of time (sooner than we hope) that the planet will be subject to oppressive global mandates.
I don't need to watch, it's obvious that you are indulging in your hate-fuelled fantasies again
quote:
Paul, relative to the cherry picking, you're so irrational that further response is useless.
As you know everything I said was true. That is why you don't even attempt to refute it - or support your own false accusation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 03-05-2009 9:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4915 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 127 of 131 (508079)
05-10-2009 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Buzsaw
02-27-2009 11:44 PM


Nimrod Derailing The Thread
Nimrod, you're muddying up this thread with a lot of detail which is not relevant to the topic. What you need to do if you want to refute the prophecies I've cited is to address the specifics of the prophecies I've itemized by copy and pasting them one by one and showing your stuff relative to each. If you want to go into all this detail I suggest you start your own thread and do your thing.
Well,since I have about 100 times more to cover, I will perhaps need to start a new thread(in a few days).But I will come back HERE to re-paste some of the stuff just to see your (non?)responce.
But let me show you how my posts were 100% ON-topic.
I showed that Edomites fought to their last drop of blood defending Jews.
You claimed they would be enemies of Jews in a future time beyond the 6th century BCE.
I showed that Muslims have been amazing friends to Jews while (non-Semitic)Christians have only killed them.I showed that the last recorded "prophecy" to the Jewish people spoke of God (YHWH)raising the "Prophet" (Gods words!)Muhammed so Jews would return and see the Temple rebuilt.
You spoke of Arabs and Islam as enemies to Jews. (btw I have quotes from leading dispensationalists admitting that Ezekiel 38 SPECIFICALLY states that Arabs will NOT be involved in fighting the battle! Several prophecy scholars have admitted that.)
I have shown that Edomites converted to Judaism and began to show that they remained Jews.
Yet your prophecy scenario requires two distinct Edomite/Judaic peoples in the 1940s AD if the prophecies (35:1-36:15) refer to 1948.
I will also drop a bomb (several actually) on you later as well. I will quote dispensationalists who say that Ezekiel 35-37 requires an empty land.They feel the 1900's AD fit that description.
I will show population statistics which show that the lowest point in population for Palestine since circa 2000 BCE was the period just after 587/582 BCE and it lasted till Jews started to return in 522 BCE. (population was still fairly sparse for over 100 years.)
The population for ALL of Palestine (c580-c520 BCE) dropped to perhaps less than 20,000 though it was over 100,000 at 600 BCE and over 200,000 in the 8th century BCE.
Yet in 1893 AD, there were 466,000 Arabs and 60,000 Jews in Palestine.1800's Palestine was just as dense as the USA was in 1945 AD.Palestine was as dense in 1914 as the USA was till about 1973.
Palestine has NEVER been less dense than the United States in the last 2000 years.
The land was not desolate except in the 6th century BCE. Ezekiel wrote no later than about 560 BCE (Ezekiel dates it exactly, but I forget the exact dates at the moment)and mainly wrote in the 570s BCE and even critical scholars generally agree with the dates presented.
I will show you even more hard-hitting facts which you will ignore and claim are off topic. (but in my own thread save some I will paste here later)
Edited by Nimrod, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 02-27-2009 11:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nimrod
Member (Idle past 4915 days)
Posts: 277
Joined: 06-22-2006


Message 128 of 131 (508087)
05-10-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Buzsaw
02-27-2009 11:44 PM


Re: Nimrod Derailing The Thread
Nimrod, you're muddying up this thread with a lot of detail which is not relevant to the topic. What you need to do if you want to refute the prophecies I've cited is to address the specifics of the prophecies I've itemized by copy and pasting them one by one and showing your stuff relative to each. If you want to go into all this detail I suggest you start your own thread and do your thing.
Here Buz is the LAST prophecy that I know of that God gave to the Jews.
Nistarot de-Rabbi Shim'on Bar Yohay
see Adolph Jellinek, ed. , Bet Ha-Midrasch (Leipzig, 1853), vol. 3, p. 79
Here is a more accessible translation.
Jerusalem
F. E. Peters
p199
When he saw the kingdom of Ishmael {the Arabs} that was coming, he {Simon} began to say "was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom {Rome/Byzantium} did to us, but must we have the kingdom of Ishmael too?" At once (the angelic priest ) Metatron .... anwsered and said "...the Holy One, blessed be he, only brings the kingdom of Ishmael in order to save you from this wickedness (of Edom).He raises up over them a Prophet {Muhammad} according to his will and will conquer the land for them and they will restore it in greatness, and there will be great terror between them and the sons of Esau."Rabbi Siman anwsered and said "How do we know that they are our salvation?"He anwsered "Did not the prophet Isaiah say {21:13}, that he saw a troop with horsemen in pairs, etc. Why did he put the troop of asses before the troop of camels, when he need only have said:'a troop of camels and a troop of asses'? But when he goes forth riding a camel the dominion will arise through the rider on an ass.Again a 'troop of asses' since he rides on an ass, shows that they are the salvation of Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an ass {i.e., the Messiah}"...
....
The second king who arrises from Ishmael {Mu'awiya} will be a lover of Israel, he restores the breaches.... of the Temple.He hears Mount Moriah and makes it all straight and builds a mosque there on the Temple rock .... he makes was against the sons of Esau and kills his armies...
Not only did Christ not mention anything about Arab wars with Jews...
Not only did Ezekial fail to mention Arabs fighting Jews(or better put he specifically said Arabs would NOT be fighting, Ezekiel only mentioned Turkey, Sudan, and Iran fighting but Turkey was the main enemy with the other two just tagging along)...
But Gods last prophecy (I think the prophecy dates to around 628-638 A.D. but scholars place it around 750 A.D.)to the Jews talked of Arabs freeing Jews from the enemy from the north (in Turkey!)we know as the Byzantine empire.
Amazing that you simply ignore that as if it is off "topic".
I think the Biblical prophecies were fulfilled around the 6th century BCE but at least I am honest enough to consider the 7th century AD as a possible fulfillment of prophecy (I should consider all avaliable evidence and I advise you to do the same)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 02-27-2009 11:44 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 129 of 131 (519341)
08-13-2009 10:32 AM


not that old chestnut again
oh lawdy lawdy, did we just get the old "the antichrist is coming!" line again?
How many antichrists does that make it? AFAIK, it's been Nixon, JFK, Prince Charles, The Queen, Clinton, Bush Sr, Bush Jr (at least with those not convinced that the shrubbery was the second coming of christ) and now, unsurprisingly, the secret muslim, the not-really-american Obama.
Good grief.
Now, and I'm attempting not to Godwin the thread, but after WWII the jews gathered themselves in one place - they'd apparently been offered somewhere in Europe but didn't want it (although I don't know about the veracity of that claim). Unsurprisingly, they gathered in a physical locale close to where the old kingdom of Israel had been (it's not in exactly the same place, neither is it exactly the same size or shape).
The UK pulled out of babysitting the area, the jews then kicked out most of the arabs who'd been happily living there for the last few thousand years, proclaimed independence and reinstated a language which had been dead for millenia.
There are whisperings (which sadly make sense) that the only reason this was allowed to happen with so much leeway was that there are people in the USA actively attempting to bring about the end-times by allowing an Israel to be created, before which it couldn't be destroyed and usher in the end of the world, in accordance with prophecies which they hold so dear.
The problem, dear reader, isn't so much that the prophecies are bunk (and they are - they are obviously out of date and about peoples that no longer exist and have failed in many areas - see the fact that Egypt remains remarkably dragon-free to this day) but that there are loonies who believe so strongly, that they're willing to sacrifice whole nations by provoking trouble to bring about their rapture, wherein they feel sure they will be rewarded for being true believers.
sickening.
Edited by greyseal, : brain fart - described changed to destroyed

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Theodoric, posted 08-13-2009 10:47 AM greyseal has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 130 of 131 (519344)
08-13-2009 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by greyseal
08-13-2009 10:32 AM


Re: not that old chestnut again
I get a kick out of the reference to Ezekiel 17 that is mentioned in the OP. There is nothing in it about the "destruction" of trees of Lebanon.
quote:
say, Thus says the Lord GOD: A great eagle with great wings and long pinions, rich in plumage of many colors, came to Lebanon and took the top of the cedar. 4He broke off the topmost of its young twigs and carried it to a land of trade and set it in a city of merchants. 5Then he took of the seed of the land and planted it in fertile soil. He placed it beside abundant waters. He set it like a willow twig, 6and it sprouted and became a low spreading vine, and its branches turned toward him, and its roots remained where it stood. So it became a vine and produced branches and put out boughs.
7 "And there was another great eagle with great wings and much plumage, and behold, this vine bent its roots toward him and shot forth its branches toward him from the bed where it was planted, that he might water it. 8 It had been planted on good soil by abundant waters, that it might produce branches and bear fruit and become a noble vine.
Does that sound like some sort of destruction?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by greyseal, posted 08-13-2009 10:32 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by greyseal, posted 08-13-2009 11:12 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 131 of 131 (519355)
08-13-2009 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Theodoric
08-13-2009 10:47 AM


Re: not that old chestnut again
...no, that doesn't sound like destruction.
It sounds like horticulture.
Even if it's descriptive in nature, it's still not anything to do with warplanes and destruction of trees.
that's such a stretch that I broke my irony meter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Theodoric, posted 08-13-2009 10:47 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
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