Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

So because He uses semantics that don't agree with what you would consider adequate for the time they specify, it invalidates them?Nowhere in the bible does it talk about tanks or rockets, but many can and have agreed that a great amount of the prophecies spoken of in the bible have yet to occur, so can be concluded they will therefore, take place in a time in the future, most likely utilizing more than just bows and arrows.If you study the Feasts in Leviticus, you can easily identify the meaning behind the feast to be a forecast of things to come and some of which have taken place. such as the Feast of firstfruits, the feast of Atonement and the Feast of weeks. There are yet at least 4 feast yet to come fruition.

I don't think the point of the prophecies was to be so blatantly obvious that anyone would get it. He's trying to build a sincere group of followers who will faithfully enquire and search for truth even in light of dissent.He wants to impart in us His spirit which in turn helps us to become open to the meaning behind the obscurity and thus acheive a revelation unbeknownst to the common man who could care less, or who would actually prefer a life apart from God. Not everyone who does receive the light of wisdom, will remain a faithful follower. Many will become blinded and turn from there faith as made apparent in New Testament verses and you see happening around you today. There is a power at work whose sole purpose is to pervert the word of God and deceive even the elect, after all, it's the elect he wants. He couldn't really bother with the unenlightened because he's already got them!! He's out to create dissention among believers and thus create such division amongst them so as to confuse them, (which you see amongst denominations today).It would be impossible for him to achieve this if the word of God was so outright blatant about his prophecy. What God wants however is not to scare anyone into submission, but to draw them to him in love. It's not until they're drawn to Him willingly by what He did for us do we really open up to what the rest of scripture has to say. It is these people who can read, study and understand what the scriptures are trying to tell us. To everyone else, it's just blubber.

For a crash-course in logics lingo, "invalidate" is different from "disprove": "invalidate" means the approach to the problem is wrong, not necessarily that the results are wrong. So, yes, if an argument hinges on semantics, it is invalid. Think of the common-sited analogy of the broken clock: it's right twice a day, but its use to tell time is still invalid.The trouble that you always run into with these type of biblical arguments about prophecies, semantics and metaphors, is there is no way you could possibly know where to draw the line between the metaphors and the actualities. If you're going to say that something in the Bible is a metaphor when God hasn't specifically said "this is a metaphor," then you have to accept the possibility that everything in the Bible is a metaphor.It seems that Buzsaw wants us to believe that "brandishing swords," "large and small shields," "princes" and "horses" are to be interpreted as metaphors or symbols, while things like "fire from heaven," "created the heaven and the earth," and "turned the Nile into blood" are to be translated literally.Why can't the simple, well-described stuff be the real stuff, and the confusing, unexplanable stuff be the metaphors? That seems more logical to me.Instead, we Christian evolutionists are called heathens for believing that the word "create" in Genesis 1 is metaphorical, while people like Buzsaw are called scholars because of their metaphorical interpretation of "...your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords."In normal parlance, this is called a "double standard." Thus, it is an invalid argument.

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I'm Thylacosmilus.Darwin loves you.

I happen to think it is. The creation of the world I believe is simple and well-described. Man likes to make it more complicated than it is. Like I said, when it comes to prophecy, it's not meant to be known to just anybody. It takes careful study and cross-reference with other prophets speaking of the same times to put the puzzle pieces together. It's obscure for a reason.
God is not trying to scare people into submission. It's only after receiving the spirit and allowing God to speak to you do you understand what He's trying to say. Although much of it remains to be seen, it's generally understood who the key figures may be as well as how it may come about.Ezekial is just part of the puzzle. As you read the prophecies revealed to the other prophets, more pieces come to together and more of what's being spoken of comes to light. It's funny how all the prophets speaking of this time seem to be in general agreement who will be involved and how it will culminate. Even tho, they've never lived at the same time, nor spoken to eachother concerning their communications with God. The final pieces given by John the Apostle in Revelation just confirm those things.

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So because He uses semantics that don't agree with what you would consider adequate for the time they specify, it invalidates them?

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Firstly I am saying that YOU are making excuses without bothering about what the Bible actually says.As to this particular prophecy I would say that the fact that it talks about ancient weapons makes it rather likely that it is intended to be about ancient times when those weapons were actually in use.

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Nowhere in the bible does it talk about tanks or rockets, but many can and have agreed that a great amount of the prophecies spoken of in the bible have yet to occur, so can be concluded they will therefore, take place in a time in the future, most likely utilizing more than just bows and arrows.

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It is only those who insist that those prophecies must refer to our times that need to insist on such a reading. Those people insist that their beliefs dictate the meaning of the Bible.

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If you study the Feasts in Leviticus, you can easily identify the meaning behind the feast to be a forecast of things to come and some of which have taken place. such as the Feast of firstfruits, the feast of Atonement and the Feast of weeks. There are yet at least 4 feast yet to come fruition.

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Which only confirms the suspect nature of such a reading. An addition to the text that does not even work for four of the feasts is hardly to be relied on.

Really? The "description" goes something like this: I did it. And, I did it in seven days. I made the earth, I made the moon, I made the sun, I made the stars, I made the waters, I made the land, I made the plants, I made the animals, I made a man, then I made a woman.Brilliant. So, who made fungus, bacteria and amoebas? Also, how did all of this stuff happen? All we have from Genesis 1 is that it happened, and that it happened in a certain order, not how the whole thing was done.Compare that with Ezekiel 38-39. God gives details--"I'll put a hook in your mouth," "I'll drive you back (except for one-sixth of your men)," "I'll knock your bow and arrow out of your hands," "I'll burn you with fire." He tells Gog exactly what He's going to do and what will come of it. That counts as "well-described": there is no mistaking what God's going to do, and who He's going to do it to, and what the results of His actions will be.So, when God says something specific, it's a metaphor. But, when He says something vague, it's a fact.

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I'm Thylacosmilus.Darwin loves you.

While people are questioning debatable things like weaponry, etc we need to come back to this topic, set aside the jewelers magnification loop and view the whole painting from a distance in order to appreciate the master's work.That these prophecies relative to the Middle East which I've cited apply to modern times becomes quite clear considering the following list of corroborating evidences.The following are just a few evidences that come to mind. There are many more besides these which could be cited.1. The modern people of the land of Ancient Edom, the Palestinians are claiming two nations, their own and Israel. Israel is not on their maps; not even in the schools. Ezekiel 352. After 19 centuries of desolation and global exile, Jews are back in the nation of Israel. Ezekiel 37 (corroborated by numerous other prophets as well as Jesus)3. Nations of the world are gathering to the Middle East where the focus of tension and turmoil is centered. Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14, Joel etc.4. The stage for Armageddon is set with the nations prophesied staged to oppose Israel and other nations than these supporting Israel Ezekiel 38, 395. The modern cities of Israel are unwilled. Ezekiel 38The above all corroborated by prophecies of cashless monetary systems, TV (ability to see one spot from all nations) Revelation 11, 13, 18, etc. explosion of knowledge, Dan 11, climate change, Rev 16, etc, mixing of races, Dan 2,

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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While people are questioning debatable things like weaponry, etc we need to come back to this topic, set aside the jewelers magnification loop and view the whole painting from a distance in order to appreciate the master's work.

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We don't NEED this thread revived at all. And we certainly don't need to ignore the details.

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The following are just a few evidences that come to mind. There are many more besides these which could be cited.

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1. The modern people of the land of Ancient Edom, the Palestinians are claiming two nations, their own and Israel. Israel is not on their maps; not even in the schools. Ezekiel 35

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This "evidence" has already been dealt with. It is inaccurate to describe the Palestinains as "the modern people of Ancient Edom". The truth is that the reference to Edom strongly indicates that the prophecy refers to the people of ancient Edom.

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2. After 19 centuries of desolation and global exile, Jews are back in the nation of Israel. Ezekiel 37 (corroborated by numerous other prophets as well as Jesus)

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As is well known Ezekiel lived in the time of the Babylonian captivity. Ancient events still fit (even if prophecy is unreliable - as is also well known Ezekiel's prophecy against Tyre failed).

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3. Nations of the world are gathering to the Middle East where the focus of tension and turmoil is centered. Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14, Joel etc.

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Ezekiel 38 also appears to refer firmly to ancient times.

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4. The stage for Armageddon is set with the nations prophesied staged to oppose Israel and other nations than these supporting Israel Ezekiel 38, 39

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This sort of claim is nothing new. Btu again, Ezekiel 39 appears to be clearly referring to a return from the Babylonian Captivity and ancient times.

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5. The modern cities of Israel are unwilled. Ezekiel 38

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And still nothing that clearly indicates that Ezekiel meant modern times.

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The above all corroborated by prophecies of cashless monetary systems, TV (ability to see one spot from all nations) Revelation 11, 13, 18, etc. explosion of knowledge, Dan 11, climate change, Rev 16, etc, mixing of races, Dan 2,

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There is no prophecy for cashless money systems.There is no prophecy of TV.As I demonstrated in an earlier thread Daniel refers to the latter days of the Hellenistic Kingdoms (Daniel 8 20:23) - not modern times at all.Revelation 16 is not about climate change.Nor does Daniel 2 refer to racial mixing.The Bible doesn't show the picture that your master wants us to see.

IF this stage is set, do we as individuals (or as a nation) really wish to participate in this play?I for one think that the plot is horrible...except for the whole communion with God thing at the very end!

"We?" Speak for yourself. Obviously you have a vested ideological interest in squelching evidence to the credibility of the Biblical record.Details are OK so long as the thread doesn't get hung up on debatable details, unduly undermining pertinent points. 1. What two nations was Ancient Edom laying claim to in their day?2. Relative to the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy why does the prophet state, "in the time of the iniqity of the end?" Ezekiel 35:5

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. Participants relative to Mid East conflict in the latter days will be global. 2. According to Ezekiel 38, the primary nations of the invasion will be from the North and named nations now under Islamic dominance. Thus Russia's support for these nations and their own antagonism towards Israel and the West.3. According to Ezekiel 38 there will be descendent's of Sheba, Sheba's allies and Dedan among the protesters of this invasion. The descendent's of Sheba and Dedan, according to eschatology scholars are likely the British Empire and nations such as the US having emerged from that Empire.4. The resurrection and rapturous ascending of the Christians will be before Armageddon itself but not before the end time events emerge upon the planet.5. World events relative to these amazing prophecies are unfolding daily as we observe. The sad thing is how few are savvy to them or even care.6. What makes this all so horrible is the mystery of evil as Satan is cast out of Heaven on to the earth (Revelation 12), having great wrath, knowing his time is short before being chained in the bottomless pit. (Rev 20} It is this celestial evil empire which now is beginning to wage full scale deception and war upon planet earth against God's soon coming kingdom on earth to go a full millennium.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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"We?" Speak for yourself. Obviously you have a vested ideological interest in squelching evidence to the credibility of the Biblical record.

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The real facts speak against you. The real facts show that you are ignoring the discussion that has already taken place - even in this thread ! Your tactics are just one of the clues pointing to your real "master".

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Details are OK so long as the thread doesn't get hung up on debatable details, unduly undermining pertinent points.

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It is not debateable that the weapons described in the prophecies are ancient, not modern. It is not debatable that the words are claimed to be God's, not the prophet's. These "details" ARE pertinent and are not debatable - and you wished to ignore them.

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1. What two nations was Ancient Edom laying claim to in their day?

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Israel and Judah. After all, accusing them of laying claim to their own state would be a bit silly. (Although I will grant that you already assume that God is a complete idiot).

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2. Relative to the time of the fulfillment of this prophecy why does the prophet state, "in the time of the iniqity of the end?" Ezekiel 35:5

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It seems to be referring to the fall of Jerusalem. Certainly it is an event that has already occurred at the time of writing since is is one of the reasons God is planning to destroy them.The NIV translates the phrase as "the time their punishment reached its climax"The Amplified Bible states
"when they were suffering their final punishment [the Babylonian conquest]"The 21st Century KJV uses:
"in the time that their iniquity had an end.,."Nice try at taking a phrase out of context, but you really need to remember that I know to check all your Bible references because fo your many errors and misrepresentations.

You need to document that Ancient Edom was claiming Israel and Judah belonged to them and that this was a time when Israel was coming out of the nations back to their own land after being scattered to the nations.You also need to document that this was a time when all of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 invaded Israel.Then you need to document that messiah came and destroyed those invading nations.You need to document all of the above before you can alledge that these prophecies were spoken to be fulfilled in ancient days.These nations cited have already vowed to drive Israel into the sea and take their nation and the city of Jerusalem from them so regardless of whether all has been fulfilled, the evidence is there with Israel reborn and the enemies poised showing that the prophecy is relative to modern times.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

It does not pay a prophet to be too specific.

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L. Sprague de Camp

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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You need to document that Ancient Edom was claiming Israel and Judah belonged to them and that this was a time when Israel was coming out of the nations back to their own land after being scattered to the nations.

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No, I don't. I only need to see that that is what the text implies. If the accusation happened to be false it would not hurt my case.Here is Ezekiel 35:10-11 (NASB) Firstly it has already been established that it refers to the ancient Edomites, so we can rule out your "interpretation". Ezekiel still speaks of Israel and Judah (eg Ezekiel 4) so we cannot rule Israel out on the grounds that it had been destroyed at the time. Israel and Judah then are the obvious candidates. Which other kingdoms would Ezekiel associate with God so strongly ?

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You also need to document that this was a time when all of the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 invaded Israel.

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Why would I have to do that ? Prophecies frequently fail.

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Then you need to document that messiah came and destroyed those invading nations.

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Why would I have to do that ?

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You need to document all of the above before you can alledge that these prophecies were spoken to be fulfilled in ancient days.

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No, I don't. You are assuming that prophecies cannot fail. I don't make that - obviously wrong - assumption,

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These nations cited have already vowed to drive Israel into the sea and take their nation and the city of Jerusalem from them so regardless of whether all has been fulfilled, the evidence is there with Israel reborn and the enemies poised showing that the prophecy is relative to modern times.

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No, it isn't. The fact that you try to twist the wording of the Bible to fit modern times is only evidence of your rejection of the Bible.