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Author Topic:   evolution of judaism
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 82 (148370)
10-08-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Amlodhi
10-08-2004 12:36 PM


Re: brennakimi
Actually, I didn't say that stuff, I just quoted it in my post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Amlodhi, posted 10-08-2004 12:36 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Amlodhi, posted 10-08-2004 2:19 PM JasonChin has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 82 (148411)
10-08-2004 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 12:51 PM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
Originally posted by JasonChin
Actually, I didn't say that stuff, I just quoted it in my post.
Thanks JasonChin, I see now that you were quoting ramoss.
P.S. You really should look into utilizing the quote function for clarity.
Amlodhi

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 82 (148428)
10-08-2004 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 9:28 AM


Re: brennakimi
(consolidated from multiple posts)
GENISIS is later tradition?
all of it? i don't know. parts of it certainly are younger. genesis 1 is apparently much newere than genesis 2. (look at how god is referred to in genesis 1 and 2)
Wouldn't most of Genisis have to be much older than the rest of the OT for the pretense that Moses wrote it to be maintained?
moses did not write genesis. he MAY have written parts of it, but certainly not all of it. the torah (and some of the the nevi'im) has been identified as coming from five different traditions, the j document (or "yahwist) because it refers to god by name, the e document, were god is called "el" and variants, the d document (most deutoronomy. this document was found, according to the bible, during the reign of hezekiah), the h document (mostly leviticus, concerned with ritual cleanliness), and the p document (where we get most of the genealogies).
so which did moses write?
That's why I said PRETENSE.........obviously, Genisis couldn't have been written too long after Moses' death or there couldn't have been a pretense that Moses wrote it. Correct?
incorrect. there is no pretense that moses wrote it. moses is supposed to have written exodus, leviticus, numbers, and maybe most of deutoronomy. but these texts all have different sources and dates. and moses could not have written about his own death.
SOME of genesis was added as late as the babylonian exile. we can tell this because it shows much, much stronger babylonian influence than the surrounding text. stories such as genesis 1, the tower of babel (babylon), and noah's flood are all babylonian. strangely, these are the parts creationists fight for most, but they date to around 600 bc.
I doubt you have any evidence to back this, especially when considering that "elohim" is CLEARLY used in other parts of the Bible in reference to a multiplicity of pagan gods
yes, and human beings such as moses as well. however, it's still grammatically used as a singular noun when in reference to yhvh.
and i do, btw, have other pants, plural. like the bible talk of other gods, plural. i just happen to like this particular pair of pants more than the rest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 9:28 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:07 AM arachnophilia has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 82 (148479)
10-08-2004 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 12:14 PM


Re: brennakimi
Actually, the stories from Genesis probably date hundreds to even thousands of years before Moses. They seem to have been based on oral traditions that likely even predate the Hebrews themselves.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 82 (148588)
10-09-2004 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
10-08-2004 3:37 PM


Re: brennakimi
[qt]genesis 1 is apparently much newere than genesis 2. (look at how god is referred to in genesis 1 and 2)[/qt]
That's pretty flimsy evidence for arguing that Genisis wasn't written all at once.........but I'm not even gonna argue that point right now.
[qt]the torah (and some of the the nevi'im) has been identified as coming from five different traditions, the j document (or "yahwist) because it refers to god by name, the e document, were god is called "el" and variants, the d document (most deutoronomy. this document was found, according to the bible, during the reign of hezekiah), the h document (mostly leviticus, concerned with ritual cleanliness), and the p document (where we get most of the genealogies).[/qt]
But couldn't it be explained that it's the torah which influenced these traditions, not vice versa?
[qt]incorrect. there is no pretense that moses wrote it.[/qt]
I think practically any Christian would tell you different.
[qt]stories such as genesis 1, the tower of babel (babylon), and noah's flood are all babylonian.[/qt]
Noah's flood was also Sumarian..........and is found in the Hindu Vedas..........as well as practically every culture in the world. It could have as easily originated from the Judaic tradition as any of the others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 3:35 AM JasonChin has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 82 (148591)
10-09-2004 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
10-08-2004 5:27 PM


Re: brennakimi
Actually, the stories from Genesis probably date hundreds to even thousands of years before Moses. They seem to have been based on oral traditions that likely even predate the Hebrews themselves. >>
Yes, they'd obviously have to in order to have the pretense of auntheticity.........same reason for why they couldn't post-date Moses by too much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 10-08-2004 5:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 3:48 AM JasonChin has replied
 Message 41 by jar, posted 10-09-2004 11:15 AM JasonChin has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 82 (148595)
10-09-2004 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by JasonChin
10-09-2004 3:07 AM


Re: brennakimi
almost got the quotes working. qs works better.
That's pretty flimsy evidence for arguing that Genisis wasn't written all at once.........but I'm not even gonna argue that point right now.
actually, it's not. internal inconsistencies are some of the best proof of inconsistencies of authorship, beit time, or personage.
for instance, if we look at star wars episodes 4, 5, and 6, and compare them to 1 and 2, we can tell quite plainly that there were made at different times, even if you're looking at the souped-up special editions. why is that? the special effects are different, the haircuts are different, the style is different, and there are errors (like where kenobi says yoda taught him, but then is taught by someone else in episode 1). i bet that looking at the two set we could even figure out what order they were made in.
now, it's the same deal with the bible. it was not written all at once. whole books weren't even written all at once. anyone who knows how to look at stylistic differences and inconsistencies can tell this. did the same person write the psalms as wrote job? how can you tell?
But couldn't it be explained that it's the torah which influenced these traditions, not vice versa?
you misunderstood. these documents are implied from the current text. the understanding of these traditions is derived from the tanakh (old test). it is evident that the people who composed the torah had five different sources at hand during the last drafting phase. we know for instance when the deutoronomy document was found, and it's date doesn't match with the rest. on top of that, it is evident IN THE BIBLE itself that people before the time it was found did not know about it. when it is brought to the attention of hezekiah, he changes the way the entire religion is run because of it.
I think practically any Christian would tell you different.
that's nice. please show me the book, chapter, and verse in the torah where moses claims authorship. don't you think it's weird that moses writes in third person and talks about his own death?
new testament verses don't count, btw. and you're probably reading them wrong anyways. they'll say "the laws of moses" or "the book [singular] of moses." eponymous authorship and actual authorship are two very different things. the tradition is of moses, but that doesn't mean that he physically wrote the version of the books today that contain it. also, the text bears evidence of multiple authorship.
Noah's flood was also Sumarian..........and is found in the Hindu Vedas..........as well as practically every culture in the world. It could have as easily originated from the Judaic tradition as any of the others.
except for two things:
1. noah's and gilgamesh's flood bear strickingly similar specifics, such as the bird released, and the covenant with god in the sky. flood legends are common, sure, but this one reads like a plaigarized english paper.
2. gilgamesh predates the earliest claimed date for genesis by about 500 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:07 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:56 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 38 of 82 (148597)
10-09-2004 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by JasonChin
10-09-2004 3:09 AM


Re: brennakimi
Yes, they'd obviously have to in order to have the pretense of auntheticity.........same reason for why they couldn't post-date Moses by too much.
you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means.
quote:
pretense ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prtns, pr-tns)
n.
The act of pretending; a false appearance or action intended to deceive.
A false or studied show; an affectation: a pretense of nonchalance.
A professed but feigned reason or excuse; a pretext: under false pretenses.
Something imagined or pretended.
Mere show without reality; outward appearance.
A right asserted with or without foundation; a claim. See Synonyms at claim.
The quality or state of being pretentious; ostentation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:09 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:59 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 82 (148599)
10-09-2004 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by arachnophilia
10-09-2004 3:35 AM


Re: brennakimi
anyone who knows how to look at stylistic differences and inconsistencies can tell this. did the same person write the psalms as wrote job? how can you tell?>>
That's like saying that Shakespeare didn't write Much Ado About Nothing because it's a comedy and most of his plays were tradgedies.
that's nice. please show me the book, chapter, and verse in the torah where moses claims authorship.>>
Tradition ascribes authorship to him. Traditional attribution of authorship doesn't change.
1. noah's and gilgamesh's flood bear strickingly similar specifics>>
So does the account in the Vedas.
flood legends are common, sure, but this one reads like a plaigarized english paper.>>
And why are you so sure that it wasn't the Judaic version that exitsed first?
2. gilgamesh predates the earliest claimed date for genesis by about 500 years.>>
As someone mentioned previously, oral tradition.........BTW, the Vedas probably predate them both.
This message has been edited by JasonChin, 10-09-2004 02:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 3:35 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 8:01 PM JasonChin has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 82 (148600)
10-09-2004 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by arachnophilia
10-09-2004 3:48 AM


Re: brennakimi
A right asserted with or without foundation>>
This is the sense in which I use the word "pretense".

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 Message 38 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 3:48 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 82 (148655)
10-09-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by JasonChin
10-09-2004 3:09 AM


Re: brennakimi
same reason for why they couldn't post-date Moses by too much.
You do realize that a common tactic until just recently was to write a treatise and attribute it to one of the earlier authors, such as Plato, Aristotle or other ancient sages?
Even today, people write tales and place them in earlier periods. Mary Stewart made a nice carreer doing just that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 82 (148658)
10-09-2004 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by arachnophilia
10-08-2004 3:37 PM


Re: brennakimi
quote:
Originally posted by Arachnophilia
. . . the d document (most deutoronomy. this document was found, according to the bible, during the reign of hezekiah). . .
Hi Arachnophilia,
Though I'm quite sure you know this and have merely gotten your thoughts crossed, for the benefit of any lurking readers, IIRC the "book of the law" (which is often suspected of being our Deuteronomy) was allegedly found in the reign of Josiah, rather than that of Hezekiah.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 82 (148659)
10-09-2004 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
10-08-2004 5:27 PM


Re: brennakimi
Of course that what actually happened before Moses is hundreds/thousands of yrs old. And of course it predates the Hebrews. Adam and Eve werent Jewish. But Moses was the one who wrote the book for the Bible. So either the story was taken down through tradition or God simply told him what happened.

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 Message 34 by jar, posted 10-08-2004 5:27 PM jar has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 82 (148724)
10-09-2004 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Amlodhi
10-09-2004 11:51 AM


Re: brennakimi
allegedly found in the reign of Josiah, rather than that of Hezekiah.
that's what i thought, actually. my mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Amlodhi, posted 10-09-2004 11:51 AM Amlodhi has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 82 (148729)
10-09-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by JasonChin
10-09-2004 3:56 AM


Re: brennakimi
That's like saying that Shakespeare didn't write Much Ado About Nothing because it's a comedy and most of his plays were tradgedies.
that's like saying shakespeare didn't write "hamlet" by thomas kyd. i'm not talking about genre differences here, i'm talking about actual wording, names, and ideas. read shakespeare's "taming of the shrew" and watch "10 things i hate about you." they're the same story. which one did shakespeare write?
Tradition ascribes authorship to him. Traditional attribution of authorship doesn't change.
i could have done better. there's alot of verse in deutoronomy that seems to indicate that moses wrote it. however, since it ends in his death, it must have had at least a second author. but this doesn't say ANYTHING about genesis.
So does the account in the Vedas.
no, not specifics if i recall. i've read all three, and heard a bit about the chinese legend too. like i said, flood legends are common, but they don't all contain the same specifics.
And why are you so sure that it wasn't the Judaic version that exitsed first?
if moses wrote the book of genesis, he wrote during or just after the reign of ramses ii. that was about 1200 bc, give or take. the oldest written date for gilgamesh is 2500 bc, and the last version was about 1600 bc. so, which came first?
As someone mentioned previously, oral tradition.........BTW, the Vedas probably predate them both.
yes, oral tradition. tell me though, does the tower of babel story pre- or post-date the great ziggurat at babylon? the story is play on babylonian legend. it's not unreasonable to say there is babylonian influence on the text when it talks about babylon.
and i don't recall the date of the vedas off hand.
but i have to go to work. maybe i'll reply more indepth later with better figures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 3:56 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by JasonChin, posted 10-10-2004 2:41 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
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