Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did Jesus exist, Part II
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 226 of 301 (278597)
01-13-2006 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by U can call me Cookie
01-13-2006 3:21 AM


Essenes
The Essenes were a sect of Jewish religion, so to find some similarities between them and any other teacher of Jewish religion would only be expected. But they go off in philosophical directions John the Baptist and Jesus did not, although I don't remember all that much about them so this is just an impression from previous reading. They were out there doing their own thing, and they had some right ideas, why not? None of that shows any link between them and anyone in the New Testament. If you want to find similarities, John the Baptist has a lot in common with the Old Testament prophets, especially Elijah. He's a lot closer to him than to the Essenes.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:34 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:36 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by U can call me Cookie, posted 01-13-2006 3:21 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by U can call me Cookie, posted 01-13-2006 5:10 AM Faith has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 227 of 301 (278600)
01-13-2006 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
01-12-2006 11:17 PM


Re: Antiquities 20:200
i just realized something i could not find that line anywhere, where is it buz when i look up 20,200
it says: "Convened the Sanhedrin (the highest Jewish religious court / governing body). He had brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, who was called James, and some other men, whom he accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned."
it's a line about james, so where did you get your text from? i can't find it and i looked on at least 20 sites
yours looks like a combo of the other one not something new
{AbE:i think you got the quotes mixed up,buz, you are reading a arabic copy of 18.63-64, which is less filled with insertions, infact as i read this your quote is writen by someone else about that part, but i agree it is evidence, and a bit more truthful than the greek version}
This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-13-2006 04:39 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 01-12-2006 11:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Buzsaw, posted 01-14-2006 6:41 PM ReverendDG has not replied

U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 228 of 301 (278603)
01-13-2006 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Faith
01-13-2006 3:32 AM


Re: Essenes
Surely you would not describe John as a member of the Pharisees or Sadducees?
But it isn't only his philosophy that lends credence to him being influenced strongly by the Essenes; its also the physical things, his manner of dress, the things he ate, his early ascetic lifestyle in the desert near Qumran. all these things are a lot more suggestive than you make them out to be.
In the end, i'm not saying John was Essene thro' and thro'. I concede that i cannot make that claim; but for you to claim so vehemently that he had little to do with the Essenes, and was not in the least bit influenced by them, is just as 'wrong', even more so, in the light of supporting evidence.
still conjectural tho...

So intimate that your hand upon my chest is my hand,
so intimate that when I fall asleep it is your eyes that close.
- Pablo Neruda

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 01-13-2006 3:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 01-13-2006 5:54 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 229 of 301 (278604)
01-13-2006 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by U can call me Cookie
01-13-2006 5:10 AM


Re: Essenes
Surely you would not describe John as a member of the Pharisees or Sadducees?
Of course not.
But it isn't only his philosophy that lends credence to him being influenced strongly by the Essenes; its also the physical things, his manner of dress, the things he ate, his early ascetic lifestyle in the desert near Qumran. all these things are a lot more suggestive than you make them out to be.
His manner of dress and the things he ate make him similar to Elijah. He was a follower of the God of the Old Testament. Directly guided by Him. A loner in the desert. As Elijah was.
In the end, i'm not saying John was Essene thro' and thro'. I concede that i cannot make that claim; but for you to claim so vehemently that he had little to do with the Essenes, and was not in the least bit influenced by them, is just as 'wrong', even more so, in the light of supporting evidence.
There is no supporting evidence. You admit it's conjectural and it is. If he had been part of that group I'd expect it to have been mentioned in the gospels but it isn't. I guess I can read up on their views again but there really is no need. He is a follower of the Old Testament and not some sect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by U can call me Cookie, posted 01-13-2006 5:10 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by U can call me Cookie, posted 01-13-2006 6:17 AM Faith has replied

U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4952 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 230 of 301 (278606)
01-13-2006 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Faith
01-13-2006 5:54 AM


Re: Essenes
So you would assert that John acted as Elijah, who lived 800 odd years prior to his existence, than as a group that existed during his time, whose location he lived in close proximity to? The Essenes ate as he did and lived as he did.
Yes, i admit that it is conjectural; yet less conjectural than the actual existence of Jesus.
With regard to supporting evidence, the Qumran texts are regarded as such.
This message has been edited by U can call me Cookie, 01-13-2006 06:20 AM

So intimate that your hand upon my chest is my hand,
so intimate that when I fall asleep it is your eyes that close.
- Pablo Neruda

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Faith, posted 01-13-2006 5:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-13-2006 11:53 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 231 of 301 (278659)
01-13-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by U can call me Cookie
01-13-2006 6:17 AM


Re: Essenes
Why are you pushing this pray tell? Yes, I'd liken John the B to Elijah over the Essenes, yes I would. Jesus also does so.
The Qumran texts are great evidence that our Old Testament nicely weathered the rigors of a couple millennia of copying and translation. Otherwise they are evidence of a community that once lived in the area. They aren't evidence of any connection with John the B or Jesus however.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by U can call me Cookie, posted 01-13-2006 6:17 AM U can call me Cookie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by U can call me Cookie, posted 01-16-2006 2:32 AM Faith has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 232 of 301 (278873)
01-14-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
01-13-2006 3:07 AM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
Try spelling his name Eckhart.
Faith,
That works. Thank you. I had some kind of memory drift.
Thank you for the other links as well.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 01-13-2006 3:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 01-14-2006 11:42 AM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 233 of 301 (278922)
01-14-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by lfen
01-14-2006 2:48 AM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
Another spelling is Eckhardt.
404 Not Found
(It's one of those syncretistic/heretical sites. But Eckhardt is considered to be a heretic)
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 11:44 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by lfen, posted 01-14-2006 2:48 AM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by lfen, posted 01-14-2006 1:16 PM Faith has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 234 of 301 (278946)
01-14-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Faith
01-14-2006 11:42 AM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
But Eckhardt is considered to be a heretic)
Well, the Catholic authorities considered him so, but not all do. This gets at my bitterest criticism of Chritianity and the basis for my rejection of it. It is a bottom up religion that imposes a ceiling that preserves the ego. Anyone who realizes beyond that is declared heretical.
Though I'm not a Buddhist, my advocacy of Buddhism is that it is a top down religon. The Buddha began with awakening and taught the non dual and then a religion was created for the those who lived the ego as reality. That was compassionate but didn't attempt to prevent awakening.
I suspect that this ceiling was cemented in place as a result of Constantine making Christianity the state religion. Probably the only parts of the Christian religion that impress me are heretical, or at least tend to what the authorities regard as heretical.
Thanks for the information on Eckhart(Eckhardt)!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 01-14-2006 11:42 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 01-14-2006 1:20 PM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 235 of 301 (278947)
01-14-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by lfen
01-14-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
I don't think it was his seeking of egolessness that makes him a heretic.
But it is true that Christianity preserves the self, and will for eternity. We will always know who we are, we will always recognize one another as individual personalities. But not the ego, if what is meant by that is pride.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 01:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by lfen, posted 01-14-2006 1:16 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by lfen, posted 01-14-2006 1:37 PM Faith has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 236 of 301 (278950)
01-14-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
01-14-2006 1:20 PM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
No I'm not using "ego" in the vernacular sense of pride. I'm using it to mean our conscious sense of being a separate individual existence.
We will always know who we are
That I understand is the teaching. But that is a gloss on the answer to "who are you". You aren't what you appear to yourself to be. This can be demonstrated, examined, analysed from many approaches ancient and modern, eastern and western. Our selves are social psychological glosses on a complex functioning.
I haven't examined this question of why Eckhart was branded heretical, but from my reading of Bernadette Roberts I think that his statement of realization of the fundamental nature of consciousness as singlular did discomfort the "egos" of the church who hold that God and man are separate which is based on the
ego's need to believe that it is something separate with out examining how transitory and utterly dependent the phenomena of a human organism/self is.
Also I think the church authorities rightly realized that Eckhardt's teachings could undermine their control of believers as it moved authority from social church hierarchy and moved it to the awakened consciousness.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 01-14-2006 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 01-14-2006 1:55 PM lfen has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 237 of 301 (278954)
01-14-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by lfen
01-14-2006 1:37 PM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
No I'm not using "ego" in the vernacular sense of pride. I'm using it to mean our conscious sense of being a separate individual existence.
quote:
We will always know who we are
That I understand is the teaching. But that is a gloss on the answer to "who are you". You aren't what you appear to yourself to be. This can be demonstrated, examined, analysed from many approaches ancient and modern, eastern and western. Our selves are social psychological glosses on a complex functioning.
WHAT I am may not be a whole lot like what I will be, and one thing that will be different will be loving others more than myself, which I can hardly say is the case now. But many other things will also be different, in ways I'm sure none of us could possibly imagine. It may be that what is to come will be so wonderful that I will no longer care about anything I experienced in this life, but I rather hope that we will be allowed to review the entire unfolding of human history in detail. I have no doubt that this is possible, and I kind of think we might get to. The wonderful thing about God is that He appreciates the human nature He made and has every desire of fulfilling that human nature. None of this cold stuff about atoms and the dissolution of self.
I may do a little research into Eckhart, but I believe his heresy has to do with rejection of some key tenets of the faith, rather than his meditative practices as such. If I find anything I'll let you know.
{abe: Here's a site that discusses the papal bull on Eckhart's heresies, to condemn the bull. It would take quite a bit of thought but some of it looks to me like a fair judgment of heresy, and some I'm not sure about.
The Papal Condemnation of Meister Eckhart - Page 1
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 02:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by lfen, posted 01-14-2006 1:37 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by lfen, posted 01-14-2006 2:27 PM Faith has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 238 of 301 (278959)
01-14-2006 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
01-14-2006 1:55 PM


Re: Seeking God beyond sense and language
Faith,
I'll try to do a bit more research in Eckardt myself. I found his language rather dense and Judeo Christian but found the "gist" as I could understand it to reflect the understanding of what in the East is called Awakening.
My hypothese is that Awakening is something that occurs regardless of culture but that communicating about it cultural means must be used so the language and even concepts that are used to talk about it vary widely given the distribution in time and space.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Faith, posted 01-14-2006 1:55 PM Faith has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 301 (279018)
01-14-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ReverendDG
01-13-2006 4:19 AM


Re: Antiquities 20:200
RevDG writes:
i think you got the quotes mixed up,buz, you are reading a arabic copy of 18.63-64, which is less filled with insertions, infact as i read this your quote is writen by someone else about that part, but i agree it is evidence, and a bit more truthful than the greek version}
You're right. Thanks for checking this out. My apologies to all. I went back to my source and both references were quoted, one after the other and I copied the wrong reference. 200:2, however does mention Jesus as being considered as the christ and is the reference to Jesus which is undisputed by most scholars. I believe it is empirical evidence since it is quite obviously a first century non-Biblical reference to Jesus by a prestigeous historian of that time.

Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ReverendDG, posted 01-13-2006 4:19 AM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by ramoss, posted 01-15-2006 1:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 240 of 301 (279160)
01-15-2006 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Buzsaw
01-14-2006 6:41 PM


Re: Antiquities 20:200
Antiquies 20 also was discussed in this thread. There is certainly enough doubt put on that to make that appear as a 'copiers gloss'. The line does not run smooth if you keep the 'brother of christ' in the line, but makes perfect sense when you look at it in context without that phrase, since it is talking about a different Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Buzsaw, posted 01-14-2006 6:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024