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Author | Topic: Did Jesus exist, Part II | |||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Essenes were a sect of Jewish religion, so to find some similarities between them and any other teacher of Jewish religion would only be expected. But they go off in philosophical directions John the Baptist and Jesus did not, although I don't remember all that much about them so this is just an impression from previous reading. They were out there doing their own thing, and they had some right ideas, why not? None of that shows any link between them and anyone in the New Testament. If you want to find similarities, John the Baptist has a lot in common with the Old Testament prophets, especially Elijah. He's a lot closer to him than to the Essenes.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:34 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 03:36 AM
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4110 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
i just realized something i could not find that line anywhere, where is it buz when i look up 20,200
it says: "Convened the Sanhedrin (the highest Jewish religious court / governing body). He had brought before them the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, who was called James, and some other men, whom he accused of having broken the law, and handed them over to be stoned." it's a line about james, so where did you get your text from? i can't find it and i looked on at least 20 sites yours looks like a combo of the other one not something new {AbE:i think you got the quotes mixed up,buz, you are reading a arabic copy of 18.63-64, which is less filled with insertions, infact as i read this your quote is writen by someone else about that part, but i agree it is evidence, and a bit more truthful than the greek version} This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-13-2006 04:39 AM
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U can call me Cookie Member (Idle past 4952 days) Posts: 228 From: jo'burg, RSA Joined: |
Surely you would not describe John as a member of the Pharisees or Sadducees?
But it isn't only his philosophy that lends credence to him being influenced strongly by the Essenes; its also the physical things, his manner of dress, the things he ate, his early ascetic lifestyle in the desert near Qumran. all these things are a lot more suggestive than you make them out to be. In the end, i'm not saying John was Essene thro' and thro'. I concede that i cannot make that claim; but for you to claim so vehemently that he had little to do with the Essenes, and was not in the least bit influenced by them, is just as 'wrong', even more so, in the light of supporting evidence. still conjectural tho... So intimate that your hand upon my chest is my hand, so intimate that when I fall asleep it is your eyes that close. - Pablo Neruda
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Surely you would not describe John as a member of the Pharisees or Sadducees? Of course not.
But it isn't only his philosophy that lends credence to him being influenced strongly by the Essenes; its also the physical things, his manner of dress, the things he ate, his early ascetic lifestyle in the desert near Qumran. all these things are a lot more suggestive than you make them out to be. His manner of dress and the things he ate make him similar to Elijah. He was a follower of the God of the Old Testament. Directly guided by Him. A loner in the desert. As Elijah was.
In the end, i'm not saying John was Essene thro' and thro'. I concede that i cannot make that claim; but for you to claim so vehemently that he had little to do with the Essenes, and was not in the least bit influenced by them, is just as 'wrong', even more so, in the light of supporting evidence. There is no supporting evidence. You admit it's conjectural and it is. If he had been part of that group I'd expect it to have been mentioned in the gospels but it isn't. I guess I can read up on their views again but there really is no need. He is a follower of the Old Testament and not some sect.
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U can call me Cookie Member (Idle past 4952 days) Posts: 228 From: jo'burg, RSA Joined: |
So you would assert that John acted as Elijah, who lived 800 odd years prior to his existence, than as a group that existed during his time, whose location he lived in close proximity to? The Essenes ate as he did and lived as he did.
Yes, i admit that it is conjectural; yet less conjectural than the actual existence of Jesus.With regard to supporting evidence, the Qumran texts are regarded as such. This message has been edited by U can call me Cookie, 01-13-2006 06:20 AM So intimate that your hand upon my chest is my hand, so intimate that when I fall asleep it is your eyes that close. - Pablo Neruda
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why are you pushing this pray tell? Yes, I'd liken John the B to Elijah over the Essenes, yes I would. Jesus also does so.
The Qumran texts are great evidence that our Old Testament nicely weathered the rigors of a couple millennia of copying and translation. Otherwise they are evidence of a community that once lived in the area. They aren't evidence of any connection with John the B or Jesus however.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4677 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Try spelling his name Eckhart. Faith, That works. Thank you. I had some kind of memory drift.Thank you for the other links as well. lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Another spelling is Eckhardt.
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(It's one of those syncretistic/heretical sites. But Eckhardt is considered to be a heretic) This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 11:44 AM
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lfen Member (Idle past 4677 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
But Eckhardt is considered to be a heretic) Well, the Catholic authorities considered him so, but not all do. This gets at my bitterest criticism of Chritianity and the basis for my rejection of it. It is a bottom up religion that imposes a ceiling that preserves the ego. Anyone who realizes beyond that is declared heretical. Though I'm not a Buddhist, my advocacy of Buddhism is that it is a top down religon. The Buddha began with awakening and taught the non dual and then a religion was created for the those who lived the ego as reality. That was compassionate but didn't attempt to prevent awakening. I suspect that this ceiling was cemented in place as a result of Constantine making Christianity the state religion. Probably the only parts of the Christian religion that impress me are heretical, or at least tend to what the authorities regard as heretical. Thanks for the information on Eckhart(Eckhardt)! lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't think it was his seeking of egolessness that makes him a heretic.
But it is true that Christianity preserves the self, and will for eternity. We will always know who we are, we will always recognize one another as individual personalities. But not the ego, if what is meant by that is pride. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 01:20 PM
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lfen Member (Idle past 4677 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
No I'm not using "ego" in the vernacular sense of pride. I'm using it to mean our conscious sense of being a separate individual existence.
We will always know who we are That I understand is the teaching. But that is a gloss on the answer to "who are you". You aren't what you appear to yourself to be. This can be demonstrated, examined, analysed from many approaches ancient and modern, eastern and western. Our selves are social psychological glosses on a complex functioning. I haven't examined this question of why Eckhart was branded heretical, but from my reading of Bernadette Roberts I think that his statement of realization of the fundamental nature of consciousness as singlular did discomfort the "egos" of the church who hold that God and man are separate which is based on theego's need to believe that it is something separate with out examining how transitory and utterly dependent the phenomena of a human organism/self is. Also I think the church authorities rightly realized that Eckhardt's teachings could undermine their control of believers as it moved authority from social church hierarchy and moved it to the awakened consciousness. lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No I'm not using "ego" in the vernacular sense of pride. I'm using it to mean our conscious sense of being a separate individual existence.
quote: That I understand is the teaching. But that is a gloss on the answer to "who are you". You aren't what you appear to yourself to be. This can be demonstrated, examined, analysed from many approaches ancient and modern, eastern and western. Our selves are social psychological glosses on a complex functioning. WHAT I am may not be a whole lot like what I will be, and one thing that will be different will be loving others more than myself, which I can hardly say is the case now. But many other things will also be different, in ways I'm sure none of us could possibly imagine. It may be that what is to come will be so wonderful that I will no longer care about anything I experienced in this life, but I rather hope that we will be allowed to review the entire unfolding of human history in detail. I have no doubt that this is possible, and I kind of think we might get to. The wonderful thing about God is that He appreciates the human nature He made and has every desire of fulfilling that human nature. None of this cold stuff about atoms and the dissolution of self. I may do a little research into Eckhart, but I believe his heresy has to do with rejection of some key tenets of the faith, rather than his meditative practices as such. If I find anything I'll let you know. {abe: Here's a site that discusses the papal bull on Eckhart's heresies, to condemn the bull. It would take quite a bit of thought but some of it looks to me like a fair judgment of heresy, and some I'm not sure about. The Papal Condemnation of Meister Eckhart - Page 1 This message has been edited by Faith, 01-14-2006 02:23 PM
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lfen Member (Idle past 4677 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Faith,
I'll try to do a bit more research in Eckardt myself. I found his language rather dense and Judeo Christian but found the "gist" as I could understand it to reflect the understanding of what in the East is called Awakening. My hypothese is that Awakening is something that occurs regardless of culture but that communicating about it cultural means must be used so the language and even concepts that are used to talk about it vary widely given the distribution in time and space. lfen
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
RevDG writes: i think you got the quotes mixed up,buz, you are reading a arabic copy of 18.63-64, which is less filled with insertions, infact as i read this your quote is writen by someone else about that part, but i agree it is evidence, and a bit more truthful than the greek version} You're right. Thanks for checking this out. My apologies to all. I went back to my source and both references were quoted, one after the other and I copied the wrong reference. 200:2, however does mention Jesus as being considered as the christ and is the reference to Jesus which is undisputed by most scholars. I believe it is empirical evidence since it is quite obviously a first century non-Biblical reference to Jesus by a prestigeous historian of that time. Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 611 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Antiquies 20 also was discussed in this thread. There is certainly enough doubt put on that to make that appear as a 'copiers gloss'. The line does not run smooth if you keep the 'brother of christ' in the line, but makes perfect sense when you look at it in context without that phrase, since it is talking about a different Jesus.
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