Inerrancy of the Bible 2

sidelined,I didn't realize this was a prophecy(including protecting Jerusalem), but your all absolutely right. The earth will literally be shaken to the core when this prophecy is finally fullfilled. The tsunami just as of late caused the earth to go back 3 millions of a second, when kjv Isaiah 24:20 & kjv Revelation 16:20 occurs the sundial of the earth will be set back a total of 10 degree's. I appreciate you all bringing this to my attention. kjv Isa 38:4 Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,
kjv Isa 38:5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
kjv Isa 38:6 And I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria: and I will defend this city.
kjv Isa 38:7 And this shall be a sign unto thee from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing that he hath spoken;
kjv Isa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
kjv Isa 38:9 The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness:

Charles Knight, You all really don't understand God chose Hovind to proclaim a message, that God was the creator. You all simply don't like the message, so you attack the messenger. Kent we hear the message. God is Lord, he did it, we can not prove microevolution answers origin. Lets all rise & Give God the Glory. Lets all rise, and Kent will likely say Amen.

So?If you want to say that God created the big bang or even life then fine. If you want to say how you might do well to specify it.If you want to say that God doesn't exist if we do have an explanation for abiogenesis or the origin of the big bang then go ahead. That is the corrollory of what you are saying.You are safe for now but what if we do learn more?It is up to you.(btw were you ever going to join into the Lucy discussion that was started just for you? Or are you going to make it clear that you had no idea what you are talking about there? )

Tom Forget prophecy,according to the above passages this occured as a result of Isaiah and yet no record of the event,nor any damage as a result of.Face it,it is myth and nothing more.

sidelined, Reading the KJV it says it will go backward, no mention of going forward. I appreciate you all for bringing to light that an event such as this would likely cause every island to fled away, and the mountains were not found. (kjv Revelation 16:20)kjv Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.kjv Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

TomYou misunderstand.The passage refers to something that has already supposedly occured in the past at the time of Isaiah and Hezekiah.Since the earth did not actually stop and reverse then it stands to reason that the prophecy is bullshit in any way you care to look at it. Marvelous thing about these prophecies.The wrath is always coming 2000,3000,4000 years and people still keep pushing it to the future.

sidelined, It actually does say it will rock to and fro, so appears it will go back 10 degrees and then forward 10 degree's. I'm leaning it will happen before the generation that was born when Israel took control of Jerusalem in 1967(Jack Van Impe's belief). However some feel it will happen when the generation born in 1947 before this generation passes away? I see this Great Day of the Lord possibly happening in your lifetime. No man knows the hour, but Israel which within this prophecy the Lord says he will protect. Its also prophecied to happen within the generation living in respect to Israel. God said he will do it(only God knows the hour), and well prophecy never fails.This message has been edited by Tom, 01-21-2005 23:48 AM

Tom Excuse me but read the passages here. Isaiah already supposedly did this according to the bible but it did NOT happen. How many times do you have to be shown the verse and reaizing how devastating it is
still not realize that such a thing did not happen when Isaiah cried out. Let me repeat ,IT DID... NOT... HAPPEN.It is bullshit.

Of course prophecy never fails, if it hasn't happen yet, it must be coming sometime in the future. So prophecy is always true, even though we haven't seen it fulfilled, and see no evidence of it being fulfilled.I find it pathetic that you've been so insistent regarding the changes in Earth's rotation, until presented with the reality of such a scenario. Then what you've argued so passionately for suddenly becomes "prophecy" instead of "history".A most transparent tactic.

from the tom post: actually, i'm pretty sure we can.and the moon DOES spin, just at the same rate it revolves around the earth, so it always keeps one face towards us. it does that because it's not spherical, it's actually slightly egg-shapped. the heavy end keeps it locked in rotational sync. it's shaped that way because it cooled under the influence of earth's gravity.

sidelined, God can stop the earth without shaking the earth apart kjv Joshua 10:13, and he could of caused it to spin backwards then forward(however in Isaiahs day it was likely a partial eclipse of the sun)shadow going backward and forward. I like the big earthquake event in the future because its in agreement with you in respect to the shaking of the earth to the core(Gods wrath). I agree God also turned the shadow forward meaning he was going to kill Hezekiah but after Hezekiah prayers he moved it backward giving Hezekiah back his fifteen years, delaying and protecting Hezekiah from the Assyrians in his extended time. Its really a quite story how a righteous ruler delayed the judgment of God during his reign.George W. Bush is a righteous leader, and lets pray that God will protect America as he protected Hezekiah from his enemies.We all know though that there will be a great earthquake prophecy and that the earth will rock to and fro, and who will be able to stand it the day of the wrath of the Lord. The earth will be so shaken that this is when the earth could actually spin backwards and forward 10 degrees when the earth falls to rise no more (mountains flattened, Islands no more).This message has been edited by Tom, 01-22-2005 02:54 AM

you know, sometimes i think you are actually an evolutionist mocking a creationist, just for shits and giggles. otherwise, where do you come up with this crap? what does bush have to do with anything?

Not to go against my own advice (about not bringing up things I haven't fully researched).1) Anybody know anything about multiple civilization's ancient "sun" temples being oriented to degrees no longer applicable in today's "modern" world? Also, historical differences in star locations (relative to Earth observers) over the years? Start searching the concept of "Earth Tilt" and you get some interesting articles. The reason I bring this up is that sundials work on a principle of angles, if you change the angle of the Earth enough you could potentially "move the dial back 10 degrees) without "stopping" the Earth's rotation. Might answer the Ahaz "problem" without the destructive consequences...2) NosyNed, not that they've finalized it, but "String Theory" Scientists promote a Big Bang origin that sounds an awful lot like Biblical Creation (i.e. almost instantaneous).3) Brian, yes my point on ancestors was weak, but regardless, there are many "events" that we have to rely on references (even Biblical) because we have no other records. Just because a Biblical book is the only place it is referenced, doesn't automatically mean it didn't happen... As "Old-Earthers" are always finding, it's hard to write history you've never witnessed... Kind of like the laughable science-contrived "giant snow-ball" Earth...4) What does proof of Biblical non-"error" entail? If something like the Dial of Ahaz is proven possible is that good enough? Because if "possibility" isn't good enough, than we might as well tell researchers to call it quits since most of their work is based in speculation/assumptions to establish their theories...

It would make more sense for God to adjust the timepiece. Like turning a clock backwards. (Yes I realize it wasn't quite that simple, but for God no problem. Right?) Isaiah talks of the shadow moving, not actually the sun. Definitely much less stress on the planet.It is interesting though that in Isaiah 38:9-22 which is supposedly a writing of Hezekiah, Hezekiah doesn't mention the miraculous sign. He mentions that his health was restored, but failed to mention such an unusual sign.

---

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Hi Incog, hope you are well. This is circular reasoning. Indeed, and I agree 100%.But, when epic event after epic event comes up blank in the textual, archaeological and anthropological record, we should start to perhaps question the way in which we are reading the Bible.For example, your reference in another thread to 600 000 men of fighting age and their families wandering in the desert for 40 years may in fact be a misunderstanding of the text. The word 'thousand' here is the Hebrew word 'eleph' which can mean 'family' or even 'tent'. Now, if the Bible stated that 600 families came out of Egypt then very few people would question this. But, if 'eleph' is taken as 'thousand', then this puts the number at around 2-3 milion, a number that is impossible to reach with 70 people over 430 years.A. Lucas(1944) The Number of the Israelites at the Time of the Exodus, PAlestine Exploration Quarterly 76, pp164-166)
working with official population figures from Annuaire Statistique 1937-8, informs us that between 1907 and 1937 the average annual rate of population increase per 1000 people was 11.69%. When he applied this growth rate to the 70 Israelites over a period of 430 years he arrived at a total population of 10 363, a number drastically at odds with the 2-3 million that would be required if the 'eleph' is taken as 'thousand'.Lucas also explains that: The population of the whole of the Administrative Division or Province, of Sinai, from the Mediterranean Sea on the north to the apex of the peninsula on the south, was only 15,058 in 1927, and only 29 951 in 1937, and there could not possibly have been either water or food sufficient for the number of Israelites given. 167-168)These figures cast serious doubts on the credibility of the Bible in regard to the numbers involved in the Exodus, not only do they make the population growth a physical impossibility, they also make it particularly unlikely for a group this size to survive off the land’s resources.Lucas’ population growth of 11.69% for the Israelites is put into a different perspective when we look at an estimate for world population growth before the birth of Christ. The population growth rate is calculated from the remains of cities, villages, other settlements, and the extension of cultivated land. (Livi-Bacci, M. (1992) A concise history of world population, Oxford: Blackwell, Cambridge, MA. p.30) In the 10,000 years prior to the birth of Christ, during which Neolithic civilization spread from the Near East and Upper Egypt, the rate increased to 0.4 per 1,000 (which implies a doubling in less than 2,000 years) and population grew from several million to about 0.25 billion. This rate of increase, in spite of important cycles of growth and decline, was reinforced during the subsequent 17 and a half centuries. The population tripled to about 0.75 billion on the eve of the Industrial Revolution (an overall rate of growth of 0.6 per 1,000). It was, however, the Industrial Revolution which initiated a period of decisive and sustained growth. During the following two centuries population increased about tenfold, at an annual growth rate of 6 per 1,000 (doubling time 118 years). This process of growth was the result of a rapid accumulation of resources, control of the environment, and mortality decline, and has culminated in the second half of the current century. (p.32)We can see then that a more realistic growth rate was only 0.4% per 1000, much lower than the 20th century figure employed by Lucas. But, if the Israelites had grown from a group of seventy to a group of several million in 430 years, it would be no surprise to discover that the pharaoh was concerned about them!Also, a group of the population size given in the Hebrew Bible would not require any divine assistance to overcome their ‘task masters’, they certainly would have greatly out-numbered them: Such a number would have, indeed, caused Egypt's Pharaoh consternation, for not only would there have been very little room for them in Egypt, but a group of this size could likely have taken over Egypt with or without weapons they would hardly have had to fear Pharaoh's army, which was probably at most about 20,000 men. (Mendenhall 1958: The Census Lists of Numbers 1 and 26 Journal of Biblical Literature, 77, pp. 64-65)On the surface, these statistics may be entertaining to read, but what they really ought to do is to alert us to the fact that we need to alter the way in which we are reading the biblical texts.Back to the 36Christians opening statement where they claim It is our stand that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is completely perfect. This suggests to me that they have already verified everything in the Bible or they could not have this conclusion. If they said we have 'faith' in the KJV's perfection then that would be different. But to say something is perfect without checking it out completely is surprising to me.It also looks as if their teacher is not teaching them any critical writing skills. I do not know what age these students are, but if they are at high school level then their teacher needs to go over their replies with them and highlight where they need to be puting in supporting evidence.But, at least they are reading the Bible and appear to be educating themselves about it. I actually think that through this enquiry that some of the students will come to learn that claiming 100% perfection for the KJV is simply a gimmick that some strange fundies dreamt up and that the Book is more impressive when viewed in the proper context.Brian.