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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1598 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
“And God said, ”Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water’ So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it.” Any guess’s what is being made? check your bible again. what's being made is called "heaven" and it separates the waters BELOW from the waters ABOVE.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6750 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
Moles would be Talpidae (That in includes moles, mole shrews, and others). Dogs of course belong to the Canine family, along with wolves, foxes, dingoes, and African hunting dogs, all of which would come from a single pair of canines on the ark. Excelent. Ok, here is a little game I like to play. It's called explain to me how the hell your little fantasy accounts for the Star Nosed mole: Page not found | Natural History Magazine
If all moles came from a generic mole, then somehow 'devolved' into lesser species (after all this is after the fall right?), how the f**k did the star nosed mole come about? I can only assume it's a later evolution of the species since it is only native to north america. Meaning that it migrated there after the flood You see, that funny star at the end of it's nose is an incredibly complicated sense organ. Each individual finger is packed with nerves that detect everything from minute movements of prey, movements in air, smells, and more. Each little finger on the star is independant as well. It can move, feel, sense, on it's own. No other mole has such an advanced structure. Did this 'new information' come about after the flood from the origional 'kind'? Comeon, ya know it's pretty silly to think so don't you?
As for boundaries of the oceans, that’s right in Genesis 1:6-7 “And God said, ”Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water’ So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it.” Any guess’s what is being made? The expanse is between the waters because theare are waters above and below. Remember the snow globe? The empty inside is the expanse beneath the firmament and above the land. Duh. Come on NotSoBlind, your obvioulsy sunk on this one. The OT has no concept about the shape of the world. It's obvious to anyone reading it. Would you like me to go thrugh the hebrew words used and explain to you their individual meaning?
Also, you say there is no evidence for a worldwide flood. Please then, take your time and explain how, without a worldwide flood, there can be A: Fossil sea life on mountains, some found with fossils of land plants. B: How mass graves of dinosaurs exist all over the world, many of which even evolutionists say drown in a flood. C: How unfossilized dinosaur bones can still exist. If they died 65 million years ago, there bones should be ether completely fossilized or dust by now. D: How so many water carved features exist all over the globe (ex. Devils Tower, Columbia River basin, Grand canyon.) Oh, and be sure to go into detail. Yes, there is no evidence of a world wide flood. The evidence we do find:
A: Fossil sea life on mountains, some found with fossils of land plants. Mountains that are formed thrugh continental uplift, formed over millions of years. The mountains, at one point, may have been under the ocean. As they built up, they took their ocean fossils with them. What's hard to understand about that?
B: How mass graves of dinosaurs exist all over the world, many of which even evolutionists say drown in a flood. Yes, many paleontologysts seek out ancient riverbeds or lakes because they know seasonal flooding makes for great fossil beds. However many MANY fossil beds have nothing to do with a flood. And most fossil beds are direct contradictions to a global flood. (I will get to this in a second).
D: How so many water carved features exist all over the globe (ex. Devils Tower, Columbia River basin, Grand canyon.) Oh, and be sure to go into detail. Grand Canyon was carved by the clorado river over millions of years. I'll quote more accurate sources than me on the rest:Devils Tower - Wikipedia quote: Columbia River drainage basin - Wikipedia
quote: And, if the story of Noah’s Flood wasn’t in the bible, but I knew the geological information that I do now, I would still believe it. I can’t say I don’t believe in Noah’s Flood after taking geology. I don't belive you. I can't say I don't belive in Icarus after studying areodynamics. Hey, why don't you belive in Icarus? I bet I could provide you with some ingenius ad hoc explanations! Anyway... As far as fossilbeds... do you know what a Lagersttten is? It's a place where an entire ecosystem was preserved due to a catastrophic event. Kinda like Pompeii but in the natural world. Now, according to most Creos.: Dinos, Humans, and Mammals all lived together untill the flood killed them off. If this is the case how come the Ashfall fossil beds in Nebraska, captured not a single dinosaur? Dinosaur were common in that area, and all over the globe, yet the ashfall beds show no sign of their existance. Ashfall Fossil Beds - Wikipedia
http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0200/frameset_reset.html... http://www.ngpc.state.ne.us/...uides/parksearch/showpark.asp These beds were created 10 million years ago when an ancient volcano exploded covering about 500 square miles with ash and debris. Everything in the area died and was burried by the ash. This also preserved a cross section of the entire ecosystem. We have found hundreds upon hundreds of specimens in the area. Not a single dino. Also, the Mammals in the area are wierd.... ancient species of Rhino and Camel. Horses with toes? WTF? Bunch of wierd stuff. Anyway, I have another thread on this, and if you want to discuss it further I will bump it for you.
shortened display of url to fix page width - The Queen This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-16-2005 09:53 AM This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-16-2005 10:02 AM
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4755 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Come on NotSoBlind, your obvioulsy sunk on this one. Another good post but all of your posts here would be improved it you left that side comments out. Including the forced laughter. (I was chastised for this recently myself )
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2747 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Please use paragraphs to seperate your thoughts.
Ok, first, when in my post did I say anything about the firmament? In fact, the bible talks about the “Floodgates of heaven” Opening in the same verse, but as something separate from the “Fountains of the Great Deep” Which where what I was talking about. Second, why is it so absurd to believe catastrophic plate tectonics? You give me no facts to oppose it, except when you state its absurd to think that there could be a catastrophe x10000000000 larger then the south Asian tsunami. Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world. Third, why do you say those culture go back that far? There own histories don’t even have written accounts going back that far. Most of the dating done for the cultures is done under the presupposition that they must go back ten thousand years (Although if one uses the bible, an account of events written by those who where there when it happened, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.) In fact, those cultures written (or drawn, in some cases) histories go back to a point after the flood would have occurred in the biblical time line. Thirdly, it would be quit easy to get the different appearances and languages from those eight people. With proper genetics and isolated descendant families, the genes for all skin colors, eye shapes, hair color, and height would be present, and would eventually create lines of people who have similar features. For example, all varieties of Syrian (also known as teddy bear) hamster in the pet trade today come from THREE individuals, a male and three females, captured in the Syria in 1931. You can look it up of you like. Now, that’s three individuals reproducing for 74 years. Imagine the outcome for 8 individuals in a couple thousand years. Fourth, if I am the one not thinking critically, why are you the one who has reduced themselves to name calling to support there beliefs? That's an incredibly dense section. Would work better like this:
Ok, first, when in my post did I say anything about the firmament? In fact, the bible talks about the “Floodgates of heaven” Opening in the same verse, but as something separate from the “Fountains of the Great Deep” Which where what I was talking about. Second, why is it so absurd to believe catastrophic plate tectonics? You give me no facts to oppose it, except when you state its absurd to think that there could be a catastrophe x10000000000 larger then the south Asian tsunami. Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world. Third, why do you say those culture go back that far? There own histories don’t even have written accounts going back that far. Most of the dating done for the cultures is done under the presupposition that they must go back ten thousand years (Although if one uses the bible, an account of events written by those who where there when it happened, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.) In fact, those cultures written (or drawn, in some cases) histories go back to a point after the flood would have occurred in the biblical time line. Thirdly, it would be quit easy to get the different appearances and languages from those eight people. With proper genetics and isolated descendant families, the genes for all skin colors, eye shapes, hair color, and height would be present, and would eventually create lines of people who have similar features. For example, all varieties of Syrian (also known as teddy bear) hamster in the pet trade today come from THREE individuals, a male and three females, captured in the Syria in 1931. You can look it up of you like. Now, that’s three individuals reproducing for 74 years. Imagine the outcome for 8 individuals in a couple thousand years. Fourth, if I am the one not thinking critically, why are you the one who has reduced themselves to name calling to support there beliefs? By the way, you are wrong in all accounts to varying degrees.
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NotSoBlindFaith Inactive Junior Member |
It’s really quit simple to explain the how the star nosed mole came to be. At least it is for creationists, evolutionists can’t even show how a mole could have evolved, or even a transitional form. Anyway, the star nosed mole would have come about after leaving the ark. The pair (Or pair and offspring) that left the ark would have all the genetic information to become all the subspecies of moles. Over the next several thousand years, the moles bred and spread out, and the ones carrying genes for star noses bred star nosed babys, and the ones for short noses bred short babies and so on and so forth, until you have the mole species that are present today. All moles have very sensitive noses. It’s true, only the star mole has that odd little star on the end of his. However, there are many different kind of noses on moles. Short, long, star, and others are all present in the species.
And if the old testament has no concept of the shape of the world, why is it described as a cirle? Your model is flat. Also, the word raqiya which is used in old testament does not mean “Solid Sky”. One can only say it does mean that by assuming the sky is solid in the first place. The “expanse between waters” is the atmosphere! Yes, you did tell me the sea life fossils would have gotten on top of the mountains when the mountain’s rose from beneath the sea. What you do not seem to want to tell me is how land plant fossils got into the same level or lower then the sea life fossils. If we take the geological column as accurate (When is fact the layers do not exist anywhere on earth) Then the plants must have been on the mountain before the fish. So, if the mountains built up from under water, where did the plants come from? Also, for those who requested information on Unfossilized dinosaur bones, they can be found in the Liscomb Bone Bed in northern Alaska. In fact, when it was first discovered, the people thought they must have been frozen Bison or Mammoth bones. After all, unfossilized dinosaur bones are an impossibility right? But why don’t I let someone who has been there talk about it.
The Liscomb Bone Bed has probably thousands of frozen unfossilized dinosaur bones ” some of them have the ligaments still attached. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure the importance of this. To believe that it is 65 million years or more since these dinosaurs lived on earth ” that takes a lot of faith. It doesn’t take near as much faith to believe that they might have been frozen for a couple of thousand years at most. It places dinosaurs well within the time of man, so I think that’s exciting. That’s what we went there for ” to find the frozen dinosaur bones and the Lord was very, very gracious to us. We brought back (under an official permit) over two hundred pounds of bones. It was a neat team and we all give God the glory. - answersingenesis.org As for the dinosaur graveyards, I did quit a bit of checking, using both creationists and evolutionist sites. Here is what I found:
A huge dinosaur graveyard, the biggest haul of dinosaur bones found in Australia, has been discovered in Queensland. This supports the theory that the site is an ancient flood-plain deposit dominated by dinosaurs during the late Cretaceous period around 95 million years ago. News in Science - Found! Biggest stash of dino bones - 21/07/2005 All over the world, paleontologists have found caches of fossilized dinosaurs that were buried instantly in a catastrophic movement of water. Famed dinosaur hunter Paul Sereno, reporting on a dig in Africa, describes a dinosaur graveyard that he and his crew uncovered: “As we brushed back the sediment, well-preserved white bones appeared. The skeletons, still arranged as they had been in life, looked as if they had been resting peacefully for millions of years. We guessed that the creatures had been buried in minutes, perhaps by a flash flood of an ancient river” (Sereno 1996: 116). A similar deposit exists at Ukhaa Tolgod in Mongolia. Excavators Lowell Dingus, chief geologist of the American Museum of Natural History/Mongolian Academy of Sciences joint expedition to the Gobi Desert, and David Loope, a specialist in windblown sediment and Chairman of Stratigraphy and Professor of Geology at the University of Nebraska, report that “the bones are in excellent condition. Skeletons range from twelve-foot remains of the armored dinosaurs known as ankylosaurs, with almost every piece of bony plate intact, to two-inch skeletons of early mammals, complete down to their fragile, microscopic ear bones. Dinosaur nests, eggs, and embryos have been preserved. Some of the animals have been captured not in death throes but in the ordinary (although last) acts of their lives”such as the theropod dinosaur Oviraptor sitting on its clutch of eggs. “The unusual fidelity of fossil preservation and the articulation of the bones”they were not jumbled by scavengers or scattered by the elements”indicate that many of the animals at Ukhaa Tolgod were killed quickly and buried quickly in a catastrophic event” (Dingus & Loope 2000: 52). After studying the fossil bed, Dingus and Loope realized that this catastrophe involved mass movements of water. They compared the site to recent mudslides in California and Central America that were triggered by heavy rainfall saturating topsoil that rested on mountainside bedrock. This saturation caused the soil to become mud, which slid down the mountainsides. They concluded that “similarly weighty, water-saturated sand above the cemented caliche zone [bands of sand grains naturally cemented together] would have broken loose and quickly moved down the long dune slope, entombing any nesting Oviraptor, foraging ankylosaur, or small scurrying lizard or mammal in its path. In the process, the slide ensured the preservation of their remains” (Ibid. 55). A similar situation is found in North America. Geologist Richard Orndorff (University of Nevada), biologist Robert Wieder (CA Department of Agriculture), and paleontologist Harry Filkorn (Kent State University) describe a deposit of fossil Shonisaurs, a type of ichtyosaur: “Most of the Shonisaurus skeletons are articulated; that is, the bones are still in the correct anatomical position relative to one another. Strong ocean currents would have moved at least some of the carcasses during their decomposition, and the bones would have been scattered during their transport . .[T]he relative completeness of the skeletons indicates that they were buried on the seafloor soon after the flesh had decomposed. One major unresolved problem concerns the explanation for exactly how so many ichthyosaur skeletons came to be preserved so close to one another . .[T]his deposit of multiple ichthyosaur skeletons could represent a massive die-off” (Orndorff et al. 2001: 23). These mass entombments are what would be expected if there indeed occurred something like the Biblical Flood in ancient times. This is particularly likely in light of the fact that these water-borne graveyards appear all over the planet. Revolution Against Evolution – A Revolution of the Love of God Graveyard One of the many theories about the large collection of dinosaur bones found at the Quarry is that they were gathered in a flood. About 150 million years ago, the area that is now the Quarry was a river channel. In a flood event, thousands of bones from dinosaurs that had died in the vicinity of the river were collected and deposited in the bottom of the channel and buried with sand and gravel. National Park Foundation Ghost Ranch New Mexico Scientists have hypothesized that a natural disaster, possibly a mud slide caused by a flash flood, killed the dozens of Coelophysis individuals seen at Ghost Ranch http://www.cusd.chico.k12.ca.us/...nguageartsclasslinks.html Bruce Riley Dinosaur Site. Other than the three clam shells and one belemnite, none of the fossils present would indicate a shallow sea. This is an open question as marine fossils have been found in strata above and below this site. More investigation needs to be done on this point.
Bruce Riley Dinosaur Site 2000 dig One of the most fascinating fossil graveyard of all is located in the southern United States. The Ashley Beds is an enormous phosphate graveyard that contains mixed remains of man with land and sea animals, notably dinosaurs, pleisosaurs, whales, sharks, rhinos, horses, mastodons, mammoths, porpoises, elephants, deer, pigs, dogs, and sheep. This catalogue of fossils from the phosphate beds was given in the records of Major Edward Willis who displayed them at multiple expositions (Willis, "Fossils and Phosphate Specimens," 1881.) Professor F.S. Holmes (paleontologist and curator of the College of Charleston’s Natural History Museum) described the fossil graveyard in a report to the Academy of Natural Sciences: "Remains of the hog, the horse and other animals of recent date, together with human bones mingled with the bones of the mastodon and extinct gigantic lizards." There can be little doubt what extinct gigantic lizard he referenced for he pictured a hadrosaurus on the front of his 1870 book The Phosphate Rocks of South Carolina and captioned it: "Skeleton of a Fossil Lizard eighteen feet in Length." Moreover, on page 31 he wrote, "It was in this Post-Pleiocene age, the period when the American Elephant, or Mammoth, the Mastodon, Rhinoceros, Megathereum, Hadrosaurus, and other gigantic quadrupeds roamed the Carolina forests, and repaired periodically to these Salt-lakes"... (p. 31.) The mixing of these remains was pell-mell throughout the roughly 40 square mile area of this deposit around Charleston, South Carolina. By one estimate, bones made up 65% of the extraordinary phosphate deposits in the region of the Ashley River basin before it was largely mined out. (Keener, J.C., The Garden of Eden and the Flood, 1901, p. 244.) Evolutionists have cast about trying to propose a credible mechanism for mixing creatures from Cretaceous to Holocene in this stratum, but none has been satisfactory and the matter has been expunged from current references to this site. (Watson, John Allen, Man, Dinosaurs, and Mammals Together, 2001, p. 7.) Page not found | Genesis Park As for your Ashfall fossil beds in Nebraska, the explanation is quit simple, that volcanic eruption happened after the flood (Not 10 millions years ago) and after the Dinosaurs died out. And if Dinosaurs did not live with humans, or even in a time anywhere near the time humans walked the earth, why does the bible describe a dinosaur like creature, and why have cave paintings of dinosaurs been found? Oh, as for your lovely little math problems, you made a few mistakes. 1. You left in all species that live underwater. They wouldn’t have been on the ark. 2. Insects would not have counted among the kinds of animals that came onto the ark in 2’s or 7’s. The words used in genesis, behemah or remes, does not include insects, so as many of them as had wanted would have come aboard. So, using wikipedia, I counted all the species of insects, and species that lived underwater. Then I subtracted the lower numbers of the species (When they said the number of species was in between some number and suome number of species) and subtracted it from your 1.7 million species. I was left with 472,000 species. Do the math again. And you can choose to believe me or not believe me, the choice is yours. I believe in a worldwide flood because I have seen nothing in my study of geology that disproves it. However, I have seen things that Disprove Icarus, such as a guy on TV that actauly made wings of bird feathers and tried to fly. xD it was pretty funny.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6750 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
It’s really quit simple to explain the how the star nosed mole came to be. At least it is for creationists, evolutionists can’t even show how a mole could have evolved, or even a transitional form. Anyway, the star nosed mole would have come about after leaving the ark. The pair (Or pair and offspring) that left the ark would have all the genetic information to become all the subspecies of moles. That's great, except, it's not an explanation. It doesn't explain anything. You are simply making unsupported assertions, care to put up some evidence? As far as mole evolution goes, the article I linked to explaines how the structures came about. Page not found | Natural History Magazine They are essentially highly advanced forms of a homologus structure found in other moles. Only thing is, it's incredibly complex and highly specialized.
Over the next several thousand years, the moles bred and spread out, and the ones carrying genes for star noses bred star nosed babys, and the ones for short noses bred short babies and so on and so forth, until you have the mole species that are present today. All moles have very sensitive noses. It’s true, only the star mole has that odd little star on the end of his. However, there are many different kind of noses on moles. Short, long, star, and others are all present in the species. Great, so that essentially means 52 distinct species of mole.. let's see thats.. roughly... one new mole species every 56 years since the flood.... Why don't we see diversification at this same rate today? You people claim not to belive in macro-evolution... and yet... apparently... a new mole species arises every 56 years! But... let's have a bit more fun... let's talk about rodents. There are about 3000 distinct rodent species. 1 a year for the last 3k years! Mercy me. How come we ain't seen this in a lab?
Yes, you did tell me the sea life fossils would have gotten on top of the mountains when the mountain’s rose from beneath the sea. What you do not seem to want to tell me is how land plant fossils got into the same level or lower then the sea life fossils. If we take the geological column as accurate (When is fact the layers do not exist anywhere on earth) Then the plants must have been on the mountain before the fish. So, if the mountains built up from under water, where did the plants come from? Reference please. I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about. And I hope is not poly-strata trees cuz that old saw has been thrugh here a thousand times.
Also, for those who requested information on Unfossilized dinosaur bones, they can be found in the Liscomb Bone Bed in northern Alaska. In fact, when it was first discovered, the people thought they must have been frozen Bison or Mammoth bones. After all, unfossilized dinosaur bones are an impossibility right? But why don’t I let someone who has been there talk about it. Seen it before, refuted. (please cite your sources, i.e. note the website it's comming from). Anyway, I'll save you the trouble. The story comes from here:The Great Alaskan Dinosaur Adventure - ChristianAnswers.Net Some crank named Bud Davis (a Ron Wyatt in his own right) claimed he dug up some 'unfossilized' dino bones. This is from a post at talkorigins:TalkOrigins Archive - Feedback for November 2001 I have noticed a post earlier in your feedback section where someone mentioned "unfossilized dinosaur bones." You answered that you had not heard of this one, and I noticed there are no FAQ's about this subject. I believe I can help you out on this one. I am a theistic evolutionist and have been studying the creation/evolution controversy for about 10 years. The "unfossilized dinosaur bones" argument comes from a group of creationists led by Buddy Davis, a dinosaur sculptor, to Alaska in 1998. I have discovered several problems with the claim, as evidenced by these creationists own admissions in their book. They admit that they dug through several layers of muds, permafrost, coal, and shale to get all of their dinosaur bones out. They also admit that the "unfossilized" dinosaur bones were found in the top layers. If this is true, then they did not find dinosaur bones at all; rather, what they seem to have are either frozen mastodon or mammoth bones. These creationists also admit that they found no dinosaur bones in the coal layer. They also admit that they found completely fossilized dinosaur bones in the underlying shale. This, I discovered, is only because this layer is the well-known Liscomb (Cretaceous) dinosaur bone bed. They did manage to find a near-perfectly preserved hadrosaurine dinosaur lower jaw bone with a full battery of teeth. Just to show how incompetent they were, they also admit that they were fooled into thinking they had a "unfossilized" dinosaur bone which actually turned out to be a piece of driftwood. It seems fishy to me that they also say that they are analyzing these bones themselves. Funny that world-renowned hadrosaur expert John Horner was not consulted to verify the "unfossilzedness" of these bones. I would love to write an FAQ for you guys on this one since you don't already have one. Please let me know if I can. Thanks much. And indeed, this story pans out.... well... it would. Only, Buddy Davis and crew still have possesion of the bones! They are to be displayed in a new creationist museum in Ohio... and no scientist has gotten a look at them. None the less, a quick jaunt over to the website of Alaska's Bureau of Land Management will give you some details on the Liscomb fossil beds:
Liscomb fossil beds Indeed, the fossil beds yield remarkably well preserved dino bones! But are they "fresh"? No.
So far, no DNA has been found in dinosaur bones of the North Slope. When they were first discovered in the 1980s, and before they were studied, the relatively light weight of several bones caused speculation that they might contain a lot of the original bone tissue from the once-living dinosaur. Since then, the result of studies have not supported this idea. Instead, they have shown that the bones are highly mineralized with none yet proven to contain recoverable dinosaur DNA or anything else from the living dinosaur. That's that for that.
As for your Ashfall fossil beds in Nebraska, the explanation is quit simple, that volcanic eruption happened after the flood (Not 10 millions years ago) and after the Dinosaurs died out. Unfortunetly you run into a problem here. No humans were caught in the 500 square mile ashfall bed either. We know that this area was repleat with humans for the last few thousand years. Further, the sheer amount of animals caught in the blast is enormous! I mean, hundreds upon hundreds of specimens with dozens upon dozens of individual species represented. You are out of your mind to suggest they bred to those levels in a few hundred years after Noah.... heck... how did the Rhino swim the Atlantic to end up in Nebraska? How did the Rihno get there?
Look! There are Rhino skeletons... in Nebraska... How the hell did they get there NotSoBlind? Your looking pretty blind to me.
And if Dinosaurs did not live with humans, or even in a time anywhere near the time humans walked the earth, why does the bible describe a dinosaur like creature, and why have cave paintings of dinosaurs been found? Oh please, it's called an imagination.
Oh, as for your lovely little math problems, you made a few mistakes. 1. You left in all species that live underwater. They wouldn’t have been on the ark. 2. Insects would not have counted among the kinds of animals that came onto the ark in 2’s or 7’s. The words used in genesis, behemah or remes, does not include insects, so as many of them as had wanted would have come aboard. So, using wikipedia, I counted all the species of insects, and species that lived underwater. Then I subtracted the lower numbers of the species (When they said the number of species was in between some number and suome number of species) and subtracted it from your 1.7 million species. I was left with 472,000 species. Do the math again. Don't even go there NotSoBlind. You don't know the first thing about insects or fish but I can tell you, most of them wouldn't have survived the flood. Neither would the coral. Nothing.
And you can choose to believe me or not believe me, the choice is yours. I believe in a worldwide flood because I have seen nothing in my study of geology that disproves it. See, that's the difference between you and a scientist. Scientists belive things because of the evidence, not just because no evidence seems to disprove their belief. I can believe that there are invisible pink unicorns dancing in the crab nebula. By your standard I am right, after all, no scientific evidence currently refutes this. Can you?
However, I have seen things that Disprove Icarus, such as a guy on TV that actauly made wings of bird feathers and tried to fly. xD it was pretty funny. Well, today it doesn't work. Because back in the days of Icarus they had special feathers of geneticaly supperior birds. And the wax that held the wings together was leva-wax from a now extinct geneticaly supperior honey bee. Also, the air was more viscous back then, so it took less effort to flap the wings. And gravity was weaker because the earth spun slower... see it all makes sense! Why don't you belive it? This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-18-2005 01:29 AM
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4248 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
A huge dinosaur graveyard, the biggest haul of dinosaur bones found in Australia, has been discovered in Queensland. This supports the theory that the site is an ancient flood-plain deposit dominated by dinosaurs during the late Cretaceous period around 95 million years ago. News in Science - Found! Biggest stash of dino bones - 21/07/2005 If your point is that fossils in Australia aren`t 'fossilised', it`s contradicted by the caption on the piccy. AFAIK, all prehistoric specimens found here have been mineralised. Another point is that these finds are unique to Australia. Do you know of any giant hairy-nosed wombats being found elsewhere in the world?
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NotSoBlindFaith Inactive Junior Member |
Great, so that essentially means 52 distinct species of mole.. let's see thats.. roughly... one new mole species every 56 years since the flood.... Why don't we see diversification at this same rate today? You people claim not to belive in macro-evolution... and yet... apparently... a new mole species arises every 56 years! But... let's have a bit more fun... let's talk about rodents. There are about 3000 distinct rodent species. 1 a year for the last 3k years! Mercy me. How come we ain't seen this in a lab? We are seeing it today, check it out:Missing Link | Answers in Genesis Reference please. I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about. And I hope is not poly-strata trees cuz that old saw has been thrugh here a thousand times. If you need references for marine fish fossils and fossils of plants on found on land, try here:
Uniformitarian Paleo-Environmental Dilemma at Clarkia, Idaho
| Answers in Genesis
Seen it before, refuted. (please cite your sources, i.e. note the website it's comming from). Actauly, I got it from the book: The Great Alaskan Dinosaur adventure, and http://www.answersingenesis,org, not off the other sites. Also, if all the fossils are ether mamooth/mastodon, or highly mineralized, how come the Journal of Paleontology said this after they tested several positively identified HADROSAURIDAE, ORNITHISCHIA fossils that where found in that same place from the top layers:
"The quality of preservation is remarkable. The bones are stained a dark red brown but otherwise display little permineralization, crushing, or distortion." - (p.198 Journal of Paleontology, v. 61, no.1, January 1987 Unfortunetly you run into a problem here. No humans were caught in the 500 square mile ashfall bed either. We know that this area was repleat with humans for the last few thousand years. Further, the sheer amount of animals caught in the blast is enormous! I mean, hundreds upon hundreds of specimens with dozens upon dozens of individual species represented. You are out of your mind to suggest they bred to those levels in a few hundred years after Noah.... heck... how did the Rhino swim the Atlantic to end up in Nebraska? How did the Rihno get there? That’s simple, the rhino didn’t swim, it walked. Even evolutionists acknowledge that men and animals could once freely cross the Bering Strait, which separates Asia and the Americas. Also, there are two explanations for the lack of fossil humans in the ashfall beds. One: They had an early warning and left. 2: They hadn’t gotten there yet. Noah’s decedents disobeyed Gods commands to spread out over the earth. Instead, they stuck around the general area where they were, and decided to build the tower of babel. They never finished though because God intervened and scrambled there languages. All this may have taken as much as a couple hundred years. So the humans would have gotten to the Americas at least a hundred years after the animals, who started breeding and spreading out right away. Aslo, there are no bones of predators in the ash beds, even though the bones show signs they must have been there at one point, so not everything that lived in the area died and became fossils.
Look! There are Rhino skeletons... in Nebraska... How the hell did they get there NotSoBlind? Your looking pretty blind to me. *Claps hands* Yay! Insults!
And if Dinosaurs did not live with humans, or even in a time anywhere near the time humans walked the earth, why does the bible describe a dinosaur like creature, and why have cave paintings of dinosaurs been found? Oh please, it's called an imagination. Imagination huh? Well, apparently this guy who lived in White River Canyon Utah a couple thousand years ago had the same imagination. A rather accurate imagination for someone who should never have seen a dinosaur, and yet managed to draw a rather nice sauropod.
Don't even go there NotSoBlind. You don't know the first thing about insects or fish but I can tell you, most of them wouldn't have survived the flood. Neither would the coral. Nothing. The insects where on the ark, they just didn’t have a limite on how many of each kind could come aboard. Also, please tell me why fish, coral, and all other forms of sea life wouldn’t have survived a flood. Coral has even adapted to live in dark cold waters of the abyss, so why not a flood?
See, that's the difference between you and a scientist. Scientists belive things because of the evidence, not just because no evidence seems to disprove their belief. I also happen to belive, not just because there is not evidence to disprove it, but because I have seen plenty of evidence to support it. And in case you haven’t realized this yet, both Creationists and Evolutionists work using the same evidence. Its just a matter of what presuppositions we use to interpret the evidence that results in two different interpretations.
Well, today it doesn't work. Because back in the days of Icarus they had special feathers of geneticaly supperior birds. And the wax that held the wings together was leva-wax from a now extinct geneticaly supperior honey bee. Also, the air was more viscous back then, so it took less effort to flap the wings. And gravity was weaker because the earth spun slower... see it all makes sense! Why don't you belive it?
Ok then, lets work with your theory. First, show me fossils of your genetically superior bird, and of your genetically superior honey bees. (Although, if they were superior, why are they extinct?) Oh, and while you are at it, show me remains of animals that were adapted to an environment of more viscous air and weaker gravity. I also need to see some accounts from other cultures that show the longer days and nights that would have resulted from a slower spinning earth. Go ahead, I’m waiting. *Sits back and Hums “God Bless ye Merry Gentlemen” while she waits*
If your point is that fossils in Australia aren`t 'fossilised', it`s contradicted by the caption on the piccy. AFAIK, all prehistoric specimens found here have been mineralised. Another point is that these finds are unique to Australia. Do you know of any giant hairy-nosed wombats being found elsewhere in the world? No, the point was to illustrate just a few of the many fossil graveyards that are the result of a flood, the unfossilized bones are in Alaska. And of course there unique to Australia, the animals that where fossilized are unique to Australia, and since fossilization is rare, you would only find the fossils in there habitat, not on there migration routes,
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ramoss Member (Idle past 866 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
About those petrographs
quote:
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6750 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
We are seeing it today, check it out: Missing Link | Answers in Genesis Well, first off, AiG is a bunch of tripe. Second, the changes they are mentioning at AiG are a far cry from this:
to this:
Since these are all rodents, we can now assume that the capibara and the mouse basically just came about out of the blue one year. Now, I will hand it to AiG for pointing out how Natural Selection can work on a population. Because their examples with guppies (verification pending) is a great illustration of it. Imagine those guppies in a few million years (or maybe even a few thousand!) and you could have a new species on your hands.
If you need references for marine fish fossils and fossils of plants on found on land, try here:
Uniformitarian Paleo-Environmental Dilemma at Clarkia, Idaho
| Answers in Genesis
I am still unclear as to what your problem with the trees and fishes on mountains is. Please be more specific. Cite the relevant portion of the article if you can.
Actauly, I got it from the book: The Great Alaskan Dinosaur adventure, and http://www.answersingenesis,org, not off the other sites. Also, if all the fossils are ether mamooth/mastodon, or highly mineralized, how come the Journal of Paleontology said this after they tested several positively identified HADROSAURIDAE, ORNITHISCHIA fossils that where found in that same place from the top layers: "The quality of preservation is remarkable. The bones are stained a dark red brown but otherwise display little permineralization, crushing, or distortion." - (p.198 Journal of Paleontology, v. 61, no.1, January 1987 Ya, that's Buddys book. As to the first quote, it's from 1987, that's almost 20 years ago and the Alska Bureau of Land Management (which I already quoted) shed's light on the nature of the quote:
So far, no DNA has been found in dinosaur bones of the North Slope. When they were first discovered in the 1980s, and before they were studied, the relatively light weight of several bones caused speculation that they might contain a lot of the original bone tissue from the once-living dinosaur. Since then, the result of studies have not supported this idea. Instead, they have shown that the bones are highly mineralized with none yet proven to contain recoverable dinosaur DNA or anything else from the living dinosaur. One thing you should watch out for when reading YEC sources is the dates. You will notice that many of the sources cited as well as the quotes are usually (at the least) 10-20 years old. That's ancient history when it comes to science.
That’s simple, the rhino didn’t swim, it walked. Even evolutionists acknowledge that men and animals could once freely cross the Bering Strait, which separates Asia and the Americas. *blink* I would like to know how fast the rhino's multiplied and how far did the migrate? Let's be clear. There is a whole herd of Rhinos in Nebraska. A Herd! That's alot of Rhinos.
two explanations for the lack of fossil humans in the ashfall beds. One: They had an early warning and left. 2: They hadn’t gotten there yet. Noah’s decedents disobeyed Gods commands to spread out over the earth. Instead, they stuck around the general area where they were, and decided to build the tower of babel. They never finished though because God intervened and scrambled there languages. All this may have taken as much as a couple hundred years. So the humans would have gotten to the Americas at least a hundred years after the animals, who started breeding and spreading out right away. No proof of any of this.
Aslo, there are no bones of predators in the ash beds, even though the bones show signs they must have been there at one point, so not everything that lived in the area died and became fossils. Oh, please show me some data on that.
*Claps hands* Yay! Insults! Hey, you were askin for that one
Imagination huh? Well, apparently this guy who lived in White River Canyon Utah a couple thousand years ago had the same imagination. A rather accurate imagination for someone who should never have seen a dinosaur, and yet managed to draw a rather nice sauropod. Hardly. This is a storybook idea of what a Apatosaurus looked like. It's highly outdated and we know NO sauropod actually walked like this. You would actually have to break it's spinal coard to get it's tail into that possition.
Dinos were built like suspension-bridges note:
or:
As far as your image, I'm not sure where it came from, but it looks remarkably similar to junk done by the hoaxters at Ica.
The insects where on the ark, they just didn’t have a limite on how many of each kind could come aboard. Also, please tell me why fish, coral, and all other forms of sea life wouldn’t have survived a flood. Coral has even adapted to live in dark cold waters of the abyss, so why not a flood? Coral, like the great barier reef, would have been covered in several hundred feet of silt. We are talking mud mud mud mud mud mud. Tons of it. It wouldn't have survived that. Further, the marine fish that didn't drown in the mud would have died in low salinity and the fresh water fish would have died in the high salinity.
I also happen to belive, not just because there is not evidence to disprove it, but because I have seen plenty of evidence to support it. And in case you haven’t realized this yet, both Creationists and Evolutionists work using the same evidence. Its just a matter of what presuppositions we use to interpret the evidence that results in two different interpretations. Incorrect. Creationists are twisting facts to fit their presupositions. Scientists are formulating theories based on where the eveidence actually leads. Note what's missing, (hint: presupositions).
Ok then, lets work with your theory. First, show me fossils of your genetically superior bird, and of your genetically superior honey bees. I can't show you a fossil. They were so supperior that they were incapable of being fossilized.
Although, if they were superior, why are they extinct? Because most of the bees were hunted to extinctions to get their honey and offer it to the gods. And the birds flew off to the Elyssium fields (so they aren't really extinct, they just live where we can't touch them ).
Oh, and while you are at it, show me remains of animals that were adapted to an environment of more viscous air and weaker gravity. I don't have the remains, but I have drawings and first hand accounts! Herroditus for example, describes the gold digging ants in Egypt, and the people with heads in their chests which lived on the islands near Crete. These creatures are a perfect illustration of the strange adaptations necissary to live in a more viscuss atmosphere! Let's not forget the Harpys, or the Roc. Large, flying creatures that couldn't have existed without thicker air and less gravity!
I also need to see some accounts from other cultures that show the longer days and nights that would have resulted from a slower spinning earth. That's easy, they didn't notice!
No, the point was to illustrate just a few of the many fossil graveyards that are the result of a flood, the unfossilized bones are in Alaska. And of course there unique to Australia, the animals that where fossilized are unique to Australia, and since fossilization is rare, you would only find the fossils in there habitat, not on there migration routes, Those bones are NOT unfossilized therefore your point is moot. This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-20-2005 04:28 PM
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4248 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
No, the point was to illustrate just a few of the many fossil graveyards that are the result of a flood, the unfossilized bones are in Alaska. And of course there unique to Australia, the animals that where fossilized are unique to Australia, and since fossilization is rare, you would only find the fossils in there habitat, not on there migration routes, Does this mean we can expect no Biblical transitional fossils? If fossilisation is rare, why keep hammering evos for lack of transitionals?
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4248 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
That’s simple, the rhino didn’t swim, it walked. Even evolutionists acknowledge that men and animals could once freely cross the Bering Strait, which separates Asia and the Americas I`ve never thought much of the proposal that man and beast walked across the Bering Strait land bridge. My reasoning goes like this: If the Ice Age reduced the levels of the oceans so much that the bridge was exposed, then the ice was so extensive and thick that nothing in the way of food was available on the surface. While hunters might have carried a picnic lunch to sustain them on the journey of thousands of miles, other critters would starve to death long before they traversed the icefields. Any flaws in my reasoning?
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9012 From: Canada Joined: |
Any flaws in my reasoning? Your reasoning is fine but your premises are flawed. There were, apparently, ice free corridors. In addition, there is just a hint of evidence that migrations were down the edges of the continent which are now flooded. The sea levels lowering didn't only expose the bering land bridge.
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Nighttrain Member (Idle past 4248 days) Posts: 1512 From: brisbane,australia Joined: |
Thanks for your input,Ned. Some websites on the Bridge state that the freeze put ice up to two miles thick over North America, which kind of knocks the thought of an ice-free corridor. The Polar Ice-cap is shown as spreading acoss northern Canada, but not across the land bridge. One site offers an explanation that animals browsed on the bridge before pressing onwards. Don`t you think, any extreme local conditions aside, that the bridge might have been frozen to a depth as well? Any ideas on what might create an ice-free corridor? Maybe we are looking for signs of the Exodus in the wrong place.:-p
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5287 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
and maybe we have arrested our development on EVC to the same tune!
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