Noah's Ark

You really didn't answer the question at all. If there were 2000 to 16000 "kinds" on the ark, what were those "kinds"? Where is the list? Why can't YECs even define what a "kind" is? But a "kind" is decidedly not a species. There are far more than 16000 species. But "canines", "felines", "equines", etc. are not species as Linnaeus classified them.If there is a feline "kind", define it. What characteristics does a "feline" have that distinguishes it from every other "kind"? And where is the evidence? Where are the fossils of that first "feline", from which descended lions, tigers, housecats, etc.?And why are sheep and goats separate "kinds"? Wouldn't it be easier to "microevolve" sheep and goats from the same ancestor than to "microevolve" rats and mice from the came ancestor? Babies? Where does the Bible say anything about babies? That's just something that YECs made up to explain away the size problem. It has no basis either in science or the Bible.And what were dinosaurs doing on the ark anyway? Why save then from the flood only to have them go extinct five minutes later anyway?As you can see, the YEC scenario raises far more questions than it answers.

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Isaiah 40:22:

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[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

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Circle? And that says sphere.... how?If it's a sphere... then how can god spread the heavens out like a tent?A circle... with a tent on top...Sounds alot like this: Job... let's read the whole passage:

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Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.

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Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

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Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, [and] spreadeth his cloud upon it.

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Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

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Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

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Note the bolded verses.... the ocean has bounds in the east and north? Aren't all the oceans interconected? I mean we are a sphere... why would the oceans have bounds unless it was on some sort of ... disc... Sorry if I swore. Not trying to. I really find it unbelivable that people go thrugh such great lengths to propose these ad hoc arguments.This is also why I am not going to address the following paragraphs. Why? Well, because the arguments you are proposing do nothing but attempt to twist evidence to fit a pre-supposed conclusion. I could do the same thing to prove to you that Icarus and Deadalus indeed built wax wings and flew away from their captors at Minos.I could do the same thing all the AiG boys are doing. I could call it Answers in Ovid.Fact is, NotSoBlind, is that the evidence simply does not point to a flood. And the ad hoc justifications provided at are at best impossible... at worst stupid, dishonest, outrageous, and embarassing.I mean they are! Think of the flood story? Would you belive it if it weren't in the bible?You don't belive Icarus do you? Why not? Why don't you belive Icarus? I can come up with similar tripe as Baumgardner to support Icarus.All the AiG type folks want to do is create a scenario, no matter how remote, that the flood just MAYBE may have happened. They think if they can do that, it will somehow keep their fantasy alive.Unfortunetly geology dosn't lie and the flood has been falsified for over 150 years....But I digress....hey! I got one for you! What's a 'kind'?I'll give you an example, would moles be a kind?How about... ummm... dogs?Lemme know. I got some doozies for ya!

Oh, yeah, I remember! He's the one who classified the chimpanzee as Homo troglodydes in the first edition of his big book. He viewed chimps as so very similar to humans that he put them in the same genus.....

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I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

Moles would be Talpidae (That in includes moles, mole shrews, and others). Dogs of course belong to the Canine family, along with wolves, foxes, dingoes, and African hunting dogs, all of which would come from a single pair of canines on the ark. As for boundaries of the oceans, that’s right in Genesis 1:6-7“And God said, ”Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water’ So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it.” Any guess’s what is being made?Also, you say there is no evidence for a worldwide flood. Please then, take your time and explain how, without a worldwide flood, there can be A: Fossil sea life on mountains, some found with fossils of land plants. B: How mass graves of dinosaurs exist all over the world, many of which even evolutionists say drown in a flood. C: How unfossilized dinosaur bones can still exist. If they died 65 million years ago, there bones should be ether completely fossilized or dust by now. D: How so many water carved features exist all over the globe (ex. Devils Tower, Columbia River basin, Grand canyon.) Oh, and be sure to go into detail.And, if the story of Noah’s Flood wasn’t in the bible, but I knew the geological information that I do now, I would still believe it. I can’t say I don’t believe in Noah’s Flood after taking geology.

This was already explained to you. Did you read it?
Now you explain the nature of that life. What sort of sea life is it? How is it related to todays sea life. Why is it like that? Explain why this are not all of the same type. Why did they not all die at the same time? Explain why some are the result of water deposition but not others and why that water deposition is often river. Teeth are already equivalent to minerals. What other bones of dinosaurs are not fossilized. As far as I know they are ALL permineralized. Give details. There are threads on these details. The details can not be explained by single flood. They did not all happen at the same time. There are such features from a wide range of times. Please explain, in detail, how this is done by one flood.ABEOn second thought don't explain here. That is ALL off topic for this thread. Take it to "Geology and the Great Flood" threads.This message has been edited by NosyNed, 12-15-2005 11:23 PM

So, it appears from your examples that "kinds" are at about the family level. So you agree that our current animals that belong to one family all evolved (and very, very rapidly) from a single pair (or 7) at the time of the ark?

1.7 million species at last check.

I could probably do it but it's well past bedtime over here Information:

• We have a maximum of 16000 kinds on the Ark.
• The flood was 5000 years ago.
• There are now 1.7 million species.

Question: How many speciations per year is that?Don't forget to show your workings

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I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

( 1.7x10⁶ - 16,000 ) / 5000 = 336.8so roughly 337 (three hundred and THIRTY SEVEN?!?!?!?!) speciation events per year.did i get it right?

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אָרַח

I'd say pretty much at this simplified level. That is one a day!However, it assumes a constant rate. That means that we were getting 1 a day in a population of about 30,000 some thousand individuals at the beginning. In addition, we have to put a stop to this hyper evolution long before today. So we have much less than 5,000 years to play with.For example, there is no hint in the Bible that this hadn't finished by the time of Christ. So we have about half as much time not the full 5,000 years. Earlier commentary in the OT also gives no hint that this was going on so it might be reasonable to presume that the rapid appearance of new life forms stopped sometime before.

Oops, sorry, Mangy.

oh over complicate things why don'tcha.