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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark
ringo
Member (Idle past 661 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 302 (269783)
12-15-2005 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith
12-15-2005 7:35 PM


Kinds
You really didn't answer the question at all. If there were 2000 to 16000 "kinds" on the ark, what were those "kinds"? Where is the list? Why can't YECs even define what a "kind" is?
Carolus Linnaeus... tried to determine the created kinds. He defined a ”species’ as a group of organisms that could interbreed among themselves, but not with another group, akin to the Genesis concept.
But a "kind" is decidedly not a species. There are far more than 16000 species.
So, on the ark, there would be 2 canines, 2 felines, 2 equines, 2 ursines, 7 sheep, 7 goats....
But "canines", "felines", "equines", etc. are not species as Linnaeus classified them.
If there is a feline "kind", define it. What characteristics does a "feline" have that distinguishes it from every other "kind"? And where is the evidence? Where are the fossils of that first "feline", from which descended lions, tigers, housecats, etc.?
And why are sheep and goats separate "kinds"? Wouldn't it be easier to "microevolve" sheep and goats from the same ancestor than to "microevolve" rats and mice from the came ancestor?
... 2 baby diplodocid dinosaurs, 2 baby large carnivorous dinosaurs similar to T-rexes, ect.
Babies? Where does the Bible say anything about babies? That's just something that YECs made up to explain away the size problem. It has no basis either in science or the Bible.
And what were dinosaurs doing on the ark anyway? Why save then from the flood only to have them go extinct five minutes later anyway?
As you can see, the YEC scenario raises far more questions than it answers.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 7:35 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6745 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 242 of 302 (269787)
12-15-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith
12-15-2005 7:35 PM


Re: Perfect?
Isaiah 40:22 (that book was written many centuries before the time of Christ) talks about the sphericity of the earth. Also, in Job 26:7 ”He suspends the Earth over nothing’. So, you say they believed in a flat earth supported by pillars, yet the account written by “Those Ancients” refutes that theory.
quote:
Isaiah 40:22:
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Circle? And that says sphere.... how?
If it's a sphere... then how can god spread the heavens out like a tent?
A circle... with a tent on top...
Sounds alot like this:
Job... let's read the whole passage:
quote:
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Job 26:8 He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
Job 26:9 He holdeth back the face of his throne, [and] spreadeth his cloud upon it.
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

Note the bolded verses.... the ocean has bounds in the east and north? Aren't all the oceans interconected? I mean we are a sphere... why would the oceans have bounds unless it was on some sort of ... disc...
Ok, first, please refrain from swearing, it’s not polite. Second, Yes, the cataclysmic forces that were rpesent during the flood are mind boggling to think about. But they are not as far fetched as you would have people believe.
Sorry if I swore. Not trying to. I really find it unbelivable that people go thrugh such great lengths to propose these ad hoc arguments.
This is also why I am not going to address the following paragraphs. Why? Well, because the arguments you are proposing do nothing but attempt to twist evidence to fit a pre-supposed conclusion. I could do the same thing to prove to you that Icarus and Deadalus indeed built wax wings and flew away from their captors at Minos.
I could do the same thing all the AiG boys are doing. I could call it Answers in Ovid.
Fact is, NotSoBlind, is that the evidence simply does not point to a flood. And the ad hoc justifications provided at are at best impossible... at worst stupid, dishonest, outrageous, and embarassing.
I mean they are! Think of the flood story? Would you belive it if it weren't in the bible?
You don't belive Icarus do you? Why not? Why don't you belive Icarus? I can come up with similar tripe as Baumgardner to support Icarus.
All the AiG type folks want to do is create a scenario, no matter how remote, that the flood just MAYBE may have happened. They think if they can do that, it will somehow keep their fantasy alive.
Unfortunetly geology dosn't lie and the flood has been falsified for over 150 years.
...
But I digress....
hey! I got one for you! What's a 'kind'?
I'll give you an example, would moles be a kind?
How about... ummm... dogs?
Lemme know. I got some doozies for ya!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 7:35 PM NotSoBlindFaith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Coragyps, posted 12-15-2005 8:36 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 247 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 11:15 PM Yaro has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 243 of 302 (269792)
12-15-2005 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith
12-15-2005 7:35 PM


Re: Perfect?
The creationist scientist, Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778), the founder of the science of taxonomy,1 tried to determine the created kinds. He defined a ”species’ as a group of organisms that could interbreed among themselves, but not with another group, akin to the Genesis concept.
Oh, yeah, I remember! He's the one who classified the chimpanzee as Homo troglodydes in the first edition of his big book. He viewed chimps as so very similar to humans that he put them in the same genus.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 7:35 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2552 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 244 of 302 (269793)
12-15-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith
12-15-2005 7:35 PM


Re: Perfect?
Hi NotSo,
Welcome to EvC. Around here we have a few Forum Guidelines that you agreed to follow when you joined. We find that these rules make the board run much smoother. Two of these are as follows:
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Please give us your argument in your own words using links and short quotes as supporting evidence. Do not continue to cut and paste unattributed material or you will be suspended.
Please direct any issues with this message to the appropriate thread linked in my signature box.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 7:35 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    Coragyps
    Member (Idle past 984 days)
    Posts: 5553
    From: Snyder, Texas, USA
    Joined: 11-12-2002


    Message 245 of 302 (269794)
    12-15-2005 8:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 242 by Yaro
    12-15-2005 8:26 PM


    Re: Perfect?
    I could call it Answers in Ovid.
    yes, PUHLEEEEEZE!!!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 8:26 PM Yaro has not replied

    MangyTiger
    Member (Idle past 6603 days)
    Posts: 989
    From: Leicester, UK
    Joined: 07-30-2004


    Message 246 of 302 (269832)
    12-15-2005 10:21 PM
    Reply to: Message 237 by Nighttrain
    12-15-2005 5:14 PM


    Re: A General Question for NotSoBlind
    Don't forget the supervolcano explosions.

    I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 237 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2005 5:14 PM Nighttrain has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 254 by Nighttrain, posted 12-16-2005 2:23 AM MangyTiger has not replied

    NotSoBlindFaith
    Inactive Junior Member


    Message 247 of 302 (269853)
    12-15-2005 11:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 242 by Yaro
    12-15-2005 8:26 PM


    Re: Perfect?
    Moles would be Talpidae (That in includes moles, mole shrews, and others). Dogs of course belong to the Canine family, along with wolves, foxes, dingoes, and African hunting dogs, all of which would come from a single pair of canines on the ark.
    the pillars of the earth may design the princes of the world, the supreme rulers of it, and civil magistrates, who are sometimes called cornerstones, and the shields of the earth (Zech. 10:4, Ps 47:9) and so pillars, because they are the means of cementing, supporting, and protecting the people of the earth, and of preserving their peace and property. Likewise good men may be meant in a figurative sense, who, as they are the salt of the earth, are the pillars of it, for whose sake it was made, and is supported, and continued in being; the church is the pillar and ground of truth; and every good man is a pillar in the house of God, and especially ministers of the Gospel (see Rev. 3:12, 1Tim. 3:15, Gal 2:9, Pr 9:1).
    It is clear that, in context, the reference is to the noble ones, princes, not the physical Earth. Immediately before, the context is people, and immediately after the context is also about people.
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/...aq/docs/pillars_earth.asp
    As for boundaries of the oceans, that’s right in Genesis 1:6-7
    “And God said, ”Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water’ So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it.” Any guess’s what is being made?
    Also, you say there is no evidence for a worldwide flood. Please then, take your time and explain how, without a worldwide flood, there can be A: Fossil sea life on mountains, some found with fossils of land plants. B: How mass graves of dinosaurs exist all over the world, many of which even evolutionists say drown in a flood. C: How unfossilized dinosaur bones can still exist. If they died 65 million years ago, there bones should be ether completely fossilized or dust by now. D: How so many water carved features exist all over the globe (ex. Devils Tower, Columbia River basin, Grand canyon.) Oh, and be sure to go into detail.
    And, if the story of Noah’s Flood wasn’t in the bible, but I knew the geological information that I do now, I would still believe it. I can’t say I don’t believe in Noah’s Flood after taking geology.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 242 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 8:26 PM Yaro has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 248 by NosyNed, posted 12-15-2005 11:22 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
     Message 249 by NosyNed, posted 12-15-2005 11:28 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
     Message 256 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2005 2:47 AM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
     Message 257 by Yaro, posted 12-16-2005 9:48 AM NotSoBlindFaith has replied

    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 9011
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003


    Message 248 of 302 (269855)
    12-15-2005 11:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by NotSoBlindFaith
    12-15-2005 11:15 PM


    Expanations
    A: Fossil sea life on mountains, some found with fossils of land plants.
    This was already explained to you. Did you read it?
    Now you explain the nature of that life. What sort of sea life is it? How is it related to todays sea life. Why is it like that?
    B: How mass graves of dinosaurs exist all over the world, many of which even evolutionists say drown in a flood.
    Explain why this are not all of the same type. Why did they not all die at the same time? Explain why some are the result of water deposition but not others and why that water deposition is often river.
    C: How unfossilized dinosaur bones can still exist. If they died 65 million years ago, there bones should be ether completely fossilized or dust by now.
    Teeth are already equivalent to minerals. What other bones of dinosaurs are not fossilized. As far as I know they are ALL permineralized. Give details.
    D: How so many water carved features exist all over the globe (ex. Devils Tower, Columbia River basin, Grand canyon.) Oh, and be sure to go into detail.
    There are threads on these details. The details can not be explained by single flood. They did not all happen at the same time. There are such features from a wide range of times. Please explain, in detail, how this is done by one flood.
    ABE
    On second thought don't explain here. That is ALL off topic for this thread. Take it to "Geology and the Great Flood" threads.
    This message has been edited by NosyNed, 12-15-2005 11:23 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 11:15 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 9011
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003


    Message 249 of 302 (269858)
    12-15-2005 11:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by NotSoBlindFaith
    12-15-2005 11:15 PM


    Re: Perfect?
    Moles would be Talpidae (That in includes moles, mole shrews, and others). Dogs of course belong to the Canine family, along with wolves, foxes, dingoes, and African hunting dogs, all of which would come from a single pair of canines on the ark.
    So, it appears from your examples that "kinds" are at about the family level. So you agree that our current animals that belong to one family all evolved (and very, very rapidly) from a single pair (or 7) at the time of the ark?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 11:15 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 250 of 302 (269859)
    12-15-2005 11:30 PM


    1.7 million species at last check.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 251 by MangyTiger, posted 12-15-2005 11:46 PM robinrohan has not replied

    MangyTiger
    Member (Idle past 6603 days)
    Posts: 989
    From: Leicester, UK
    Joined: 07-30-2004


    Message 251 of 302 (269865)
    12-15-2005 11:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 250 by robinrohan
    12-15-2005 11:30 PM


    Anybody up for some sums?
    I could probably do it but it's well past bedtime over here
    Information:
    • We have a maximum of 16000 kinds on the Ark.
    • The flood was 5000 years ago.
    • There are now 1.7 million species.
    Question: How many speciations per year is that?
    Don't forget to show your workings

    I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by robinrohan, posted 12-15-2005 11:30 PM robinrohan has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 252 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2005 12:25 AM MangyTiger has not replied

    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1593 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 252 of 302 (269876)
    12-16-2005 12:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 251 by MangyTiger
    12-15-2005 11:46 PM


    Re: Anybody up for some sums?
    ( 1.7x106 - 16,000 ) / 5000 = 336.8
    so roughly 337 (three hundred and THIRTY SEVEN?!?!?!?!) speciation events per year.
    did i get it right?

    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by MangyTiger, posted 12-15-2005 11:46 PM MangyTiger has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by NosyNed, posted 12-16-2005 12:36 AM arachnophilia has replied
     Message 285 by Discreet Label, posted 12-23-2005 2:19 AM arachnophilia has replied

    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 9011
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003


    Message 253 of 302 (269879)
    12-16-2005 12:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 252 by arachnophilia
    12-16-2005 12:25 AM


    Re: Anybody up for some sums?
    I'd say pretty much at this simplified level. That is one a day!
    However, it assumes a constant rate. That means that we were getting 1 a day in a population of about 30,000 some thousand individuals at the beginning. In addition, we have to put a stop to this hyper evolution long before today. So we have much less than 5,000 years to play with.
    For example, there is no hint in the Bible that this hadn't finished by the time of Christ. So we have about half as much time not the full 5,000 years. Earlier commentary in the OT also gives no hint that this was going on so it might be reasonable to presume that the rapid appearance of new life forms stopped sometime before.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2005 12:25 AM arachnophilia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 255 by arachnophilia, posted 12-16-2005 2:44 AM NosyNed has not replied

    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 4243 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 254 of 302 (269889)
    12-16-2005 2:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 246 by MangyTiger
    12-15-2005 10:21 PM


    Re: A General Question for NotSoBlind
    Oops, sorry, Mangy.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 12-15-2005 10:21 PM MangyTiger has not replied

    arachnophilia
    Member (Idle past 1593 days)
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 255 of 302 (269890)
    12-16-2005 2:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by NosyNed
    12-16-2005 12:36 AM


    Re: Anybody up for some sums?
    oh over complicate things why don'tcha.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by NosyNed, posted 12-16-2005 12:36 AM NosyNed has not replied

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