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Author Topic:   Noah's Ark
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 226 of 302 (263130)
11-25-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by pit40
11-25-2005 11:03 AM


Re: no flood
well, quite a few have made the transition so it`s not an impossible journey. Maybe, believers, having had their faith shaken in one belief system, try to fault science/atheism because they are scared of trusting another? Just my thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by pit40, posted 11-25-2005 11:03 AM pit40 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 1:20 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Carico
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 302 (266406)
12-07-2005 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Nighttrain
11-25-2005 6:41 PM


Re: no flood
The faith of a true believer can never be shaken because once you meet someone, you can never then deny he exists, particularly if he's inside of you. But there are many people who call themselves Christians who have never been born again of the Holy Spirit. Their faith will fade as fast as someone who takes the word of others that someone exists instead of meeting him for himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Nighttrain, posted 11-25-2005 6:41 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by RobertFitz, posted 12-07-2005 1:49 PM Carico has not replied
 Message 229 by AdminJar, posted 12-07-2005 2:37 PM Carico has not replied

RobertFitz
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 302 (266424)
12-07-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Carico
12-07-2005 1:20 PM


Re: no flood
So do you believe the bible is literally true, as in the dates of the flood etc. And if you do, how do you reconcile that with the evidence that refutes it, such as dynastic Eygpt for instance? Because I am really interested in how you , and other christians, see the bible in its historical context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 1:20 PM Carico has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 302 (266451)
12-07-2005 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Carico
12-07-2005 1:20 PM


Warning
sorry but your post has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
So far your participation at EvC has consisted in spouting unsupported assertions and a demonstration that you don't even have a clue what the Theory of Evolution says.
You are in the science forums. If you wish to expound on what you believe, take it to one of the Faith and Belief threads.
If you learn nothing else from this, please learn to try to follow the forums guidelines.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 227 by Carico, posted 12-07-2005 1:20 PM Carico has not replied

    NotSoBlindFaith
    Inactive Junior Member


    Message 230 of 302 (269557)
    12-15-2005 1:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 218 by 8upwidit2
    11-18-2005 11:39 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    According to the book of Genesis, water covered every portion of the high mountains..highest of which is about 6 miles high. This means that there had to be water sufficient to be 6 miles deep over the entire planet. Just where did this amount of EXTRA water come from? And where did it go afterwards? The Noah story is the booger in the oatmeal for fundys.
    The fundys are absolutely scary. Mention the word God or Jesus in any sentence and their brains just go off. I have experienced this phenomenon over the years. Always some off the wall explanation that makes everything fit. Clearly in Genesis, God tells Noah to take on board 2 or either 7 of each creature. (I guess that was an option for Noah)
    Then, trying to justify the 5,000 year old earth idea, the fundys say that the dinosaurs were contemporaries with Noah and simply drown in the flood. Did God tell Noah, "Yo, Noah, take 2 (or 7) of everything except the dinosaurs?" God said take ALL. So Noah not only took millions of species of everything else, he must have taken 2 (or 7) each of the big boys, too.
    Think about that for a pregnant moment. "Japheth, watch your little sister near that pissed off Tyrannosaurus. By the way, where's all the cows and pigs? I see a hoof under that Velociraptor."
    Ok, 1. The water came from many sources, such as “The Fountians of the Great Deep Breaking Forth” Which means A: Underground water sources. Genesis 7:11 says that on the day the Flood began, there was a ”breaking up’ of the fountains, which implies a release of the water, possibly through large fissures in the ground or in the sea floor. The waters that had been held back burst forth with catastrophic consequences. B: The oceans. In their catastrophic plate tectonics model for the Flood (see What about continental drift? At http://www.answersingenesis.org ), Austin et al. have proposed that at the onset of the Flood, the ocean floor rapidly lifted up to 6,500 feet (2,000 meters) due to an increase in temperature as horizontal movement of the tectonic plates accelerated.3 This would spill the seawater onto the land and cause massive flooding”perhaps what is aptly described as the breaking up of the ”fountains of the great deep.’ And C: Volcanoes. There are many volcanic rocks interspersed between the fossil layers in the rock record”layers that were obviously deposited during Noah's Flood. So it is quite plausible that these fountains of the great deep involved a series of volcanic eruptions with prodigious amounts of water bursting up through the ground. It is interesting that up to 70 percent or more of what comes out of volcanoes today is water, often in the form of steam.
    As for the Mountains, Psalm 104 suggests an answer. After the waters covered the mountains (verse 6), God rebuked them and they fled (verse 7); the mountains rose, the valleys sank down (verse 8) and God set a boundary so that they will never again cover the earth (verse 9).18, so not only did the water go down, the mountains went up to close to there current level.
    The catastrophic plate tectonics model (What about continental drift? http://www.answersingenesis.org/...ersBook/continental11.asp) gives a mechanism for the deepening of the oceans and the rising of mountains at the end of the Flood. As the new ocean floors cooled, they would have become denser and sunk, allowing water to flow off the continents. Movement of the water off the continents and into the oceans would have weighed down the ocean floor and lightened the continents, resulting in the further sinking of the ocean floor, as well as upward movement of the continents.20 The deepening of the ocean basins and the rising of the continents would have resulted in more water running off the land.
    The collision of the tectonic plates would have pushed up mountain ranges also, especially towards the end of the Flood.
    To see a more detailed description of scientifically supported information about the water level in the flood, and rising mountain ranges, go here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/...a/AnswersBook/flood12.asp
    As for all this on how Noah managed Dinosaur and all the many types on animals on the ark, if you go by what the bible said, and put 2-7 of each KIND (That means 2 felines, two equines, and yes, two dinosaurs, while they had 7 of livestock) you would only need to fit from 16,000 (The largest estimate) to 2,000 animals on the ark. Also, since adult dinosaurs of some kind were to large to fit, and would eat to much, Noah would have taken baby or juvenile dinosaurs, elephants, and other large land animals with him. I don’t think Japheth’s little sister has much to worry from a baby T-Rex, an animal even evolutionists are beginning to think was nothing more then a gaint scavenger. (By the way, as a real Velociraptor was only two feet tall, and there were only two, it really wouldn’t be much of a problem to the sheep. The rabbits however are another story.)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 218 by 8upwidit2, posted 11-18-2005 11:39 AM 8upwidit2 has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 231 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 2:01 AM NotSoBlindFaith has replied
     Message 238 by ringo, posted 12-15-2005 5:32 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    Yaro
    Member (Idle past 6496 days)
    Posts: 1797
    Joined: 07-12-2003


    Message 231 of 302 (269562)
    12-15-2005 2:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 230 by NotSoBlindFaith
    12-15-2005 1:36 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    Ok, 1. The water came from many sources, such as “The Fountians of the Great Deep Breaking Forth” Which means A: Underground water sources. Genesis 7:11 says that on the day the Flood began, there was a ”breaking up’ of the fountains, which implies a release of the water, possibly through large fissures in the ground or in the sea floor. The waters that had been held back burst forth with catastrophic consequences. B: The oceans. In their catastrophic plate tectonics model for the Flood (see What about continental drift? At http://www.answersingenesis.org ), Austin et al. have proposed that at the onset of the Flood, the ocean floor rapidly lifted up to 6,500 feet (2,000 meters) due to an increase in temperature as horizontal movement of the tectonic plates accelerated.3 This would spill the seawater onto the land and cause massive flooding”perhaps what is aptly described as the breaking up of the ”fountains of the great deep.’ And C: Volcanoes. There are many volcanic rocks interspersed between the fossil layers in the rock record”layers that were obviously deposited during Noah's Flood. So it is quite plausible that these fountains of the great deep involved a series of volcanic eruptions with prodigious amounts of water bursting up through the ground. It is interesting that up to 70 percent or more of what comes out of volcanoes today is water, often in the form of steam.
    As for the Mountains, Psalm 104 suggests an answer. After the waters covered the mountains (verse 6), God rebuked them and they fled (verse 7); the mountains rose, the valleys sank down (verse 8) and God set a boundary so that they will never again cover the earth (verse 9).18, so not only did the water go down, the mountains went up to close to there current level.
    No, that's not what that meant. It's part of their cosmology. Babylonian and Sumerian cosmology was similar as well. They believed that our world was kind of like a snow-globe with water below and above separated by a dome called "the firmament". The firmament had windows "windows of heaven". Here is a diagram:
    BTW, if you don't want to believe historians or anthropologists who study this stuff go find any self-respecting Hebrew scholar or Rabbi and they will confirm this. The people back then didn't know any better. Not to mention the fact that there is no proof whatsoever of what AIG is saying.
    The catastrophic plate tectonics model (What about continental drift?...
    Catastrophic plate tectonics is absurd. It's the dumbest idea ever. Not only is there no proof for it, it couldn't have happened without destroying the world. Remember the southasian tsunami? Your talking about that x10000000000. It's idiotic to even propose such an idea.
    Have you ever considered how the Chinese, Egyptian, Aztec, Inuit, Aborigine's cultures go back over 10,000 years, and yet they seem COMPLEATLY undisturbed by the flood? Ever wonder how come those people look nothing like middle-eastern folks (well, save for the Egyptians), have completely unrelated languages, and no knowledge of each others existence?
    You have to be out of your mind to consider the flood a real event! It's absurd. Really, use some critical thought for once.
    This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-15-2005 02:20 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 1:36 AM NotSoBlindFaith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 3:52 AM Yaro has replied
     Message 233 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2005 7:05 AM Yaro has replied

    NotSoBlindFaith
    Inactive Junior Member


    Message 232 of 302 (269573)
    12-15-2005 3:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Yaro
    12-15-2005 2:01 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    No, that's not what that meant. It's part of their cosmology. Babylonian and Sumerian cosmology was similar as well. They believed that our world was kind of like a snow-globe with water below and above separated by a dome called "the firmament". The firmament had windows "windows of heaven". Here is a diagram:
    BTW, if you don't want to believe historians or anthropologists who study this stuff go find any self-respecting Hebrew scholar or Rabbi and they will confirm this. The people back then didn't know any better. Not to mention the fact that there is no proof whatsoever of what AIG is saying.
    The catastrophic plate tectonics model (What about continental drift?...
    Catastrophic plate tectonics is absurd. It's the dumbest idea ever. Not only is there no proof for it, it couldn't have happened without destroying the world. Remember the southasian tsunami? Your talking about that x10000000000. It's idiotic to even propose such an idea.
    Have you ever considered how the Chinese, Egyptian, Aztec, Inuit, Aborigine's cultures go back over 10,000 years, and yet they seem COMPLEATLY undisturbed by the flood? Ever wonder how come those people look nothing like middle-eastern folks (well, save for the Egyptians), have completely unrelated languages, and no knowledge of each others existence?
    You have to be out of your mind to consider the flood a real event! It's absurd. Really, use some critical thought for once.
    Ok, first, when in my post did I say anything about the firmament? In fact, the bible talks about the “Floodgates of heaven” Opening in the same verse, but as something separate from the “Fountains of the Great Deep” Which where what I was talking about. Second, why is it so absurd to believe catastrophic plate tectonics? You give me no facts to oppose it, except when you state its absurd to think that there could be a catastrophe x10000000000 larger then the south Asian tsunami. Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world. Third, why do you say those culture go back that far? There own histories don’t even have written accounts going back that far. Most of the dating done for the cultures is done under the presupposition that they must go back ten thousand years (Although if one uses the bible, an account of events written by those who where there when it happened, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.) In fact, those cultures written (or drawn, in some cases) histories go back to a point after the flood would have occurred in the biblical time line. Thirdly, it would be quit easy to get the different appearances and languages from those eight people. With proper genetics and isolated descendant families, the genes for all skin colors, eye shapes, hair color, and height would be present, and would eventually create lines of people who have similar features. For example, all varieties of Syrian (also known as teddy bear) hamster in the pet trade today come from THREE individuals, a male and three females, captured in the Syria in 1931. You can look it up of you like. Now, that’s three individuals reproducing for 74 years. Imagine the outcome for 8 individuals in a couple thousand years. Fourth, if I am the one not thinking critically, why are you the one who has reduced themselves to name calling to support there beliefs?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 2:01 AM Yaro has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 235 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 9:36 AM NotSoBlindFaith has replied
     Message 239 by Coragyps, posted 12-15-2005 6:33 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
     Message 259 by Nuggin, posted 12-16-2005 4:11 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 3993 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 233 of 302 (269595)
    12-15-2005 7:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Yaro
    12-15-2005 2:01 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    Got yourself another live one,Yaro. Rots of ruck.:-p

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 2:01 AM Yaro has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 234 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 9:04 AM Nighttrain has not replied

    Yaro
    Member (Idle past 6496 days)
    Posts: 1797
    Joined: 07-12-2003


    Message 234 of 302 (269605)
    12-15-2005 9:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 233 by Nighttrain
    12-15-2005 7:05 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    lol. I'm amusing myself with him.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 233 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2005 7:05 AM Nighttrain has not replied

    Yaro
    Member (Idle past 6496 days)
    Posts: 1797
    Joined: 07-12-2003


    Message 235 of 302 (269612)
    12-15-2005 9:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith
    12-15-2005 3:52 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    Ok, first, when in my post did I say anything about the firmament? In fact, the bible talks about the “Floodgates of heaven” Opening in the same verse, but as something separate from the “Fountains of the Great Deep” Which where what I was talking about.
    Yes. Look at the diagram I posted. Look at the bottom, the bellow the earth area. Those are the "fountains of the deep". That's what it is refering to. That's what they belived.
    They belived the world was set up on pillars with water bellow and water above. This is common knowledge to anyone who has studied any sort of history of mythology. It's a fact, that's what those ancients belived.
    Second, why is it so absurd to believe catastrophic plate tectonics? You give me no facts to oppose it, except when you state its absurd to think that there could be a catastrophe x10000000000 larger then the south Asian tsunami. Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world.
    LOL! Ok. Let me give you a little explanation about plate tectonics. These are gigantic, massive plates of rock "floating" around on the mantle of the earth. They are grinding up against each other, slamming into each other, with amazing force! Enough force to create new continents, pile up rocks into mountains, etc.
    When a massive earthquake happens, like the one that caused the tsunami, it's because the plates shift. You know how far they shift in order to cause an earthquake? A few inches. You hear that!!! A few inches can cause a massive Earthquake!
    Earthquake - Wikipedia
    http://www.dnr.state.md.us/...rce/spring2004/earthquake.html
    Now you are talking about INCREDIBLE forces. Enugh to push up Everest all in the span of a year or two! You are out of your mind!!!
    Do you realize the level of catastrophe you are talking about?
    That level of sizemic energy would boil the damn ocean! I mean, seriously, think a little!
    Also, if the mountains where not paused up over a short period of time during the flood, please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world.
    They were pushed up, over millions of years. Everest was part of an ocean untill the indian subcontinent slammed into asia over the course of millenia. Your model has the damn thing zipping around the globe like a steam ship. It's idiotic.
    Most of the dating done for the cultures is done under the presupposition that they must go back ten thousand years (Although if one uses the bible, an account of events written by those who where there when it happened, the earth is only about 6,000 years old.) In fact, those cultures written (or drawn, in some cases) histories go back to a point after the flood would have occurred in the biblical time line.
    No eveidence for any of this. But I'll give it to you. Let's say the earth is only 6000 years old. The flood happened some 3500-3000 years ago.
    History of China - Wikipedia China's written history goes back 3500 years. How the did they survive the flood?
    If they are post flood, what the hell happend? Did noahs family get it on like crazy incest and make a bunch of chinese looking people with a distinctive culture, writting, racial characteristics, hiked across desert and mountain into far off, unknown, teritory quickly build cities and aquireing technological advancements all the while forgetting their true ancestry?
    Give me a break!
    Thirdly, it would be quit easy to get the different appearances and languages from those eight people. With proper genetics and isolated descendant families, the genes for all skin colors, eye shapes, hair color, and height would be present, and would eventually create lines of people who have similar features
    HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!
    Chinese is a member of the Sino-Tibetan_languages. Hebrew/arabic are members of the Afro-Asiatic languages. Linguistis who study these languages will tell you they are compleatly unrelated. These languages are distinctive and bear no resemblance and theire regions of existence are largely defined by geography.
    So basically, you are saying, that whoever the individual(s) are that invented chinese, basically did it intentionaly forgetting all his hebrew language and culture. Further, these people must have worked hard to create a language so complex and different. They must have stayd up late making up new myths, building cities, and writting books with the 3000+ ideograms they made up in the back of their notebooks.
    Do you see how far fetched your story is???
    Afroasiatic languages - Wikipedia Sino-Tibetan languages - Wikipedia
    blah blah blah...
    Fourth, if I am the one not thinking critically, why are you the one who has reduced themselves to name calling to support there beliefs?
    LOL.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 3:52 AM NotSoBlindFaith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 7:35 PM Yaro has replied

    Yaro
    Member (Idle past 6496 days)
    Posts: 1797
    Joined: 07-12-2003


    Message 236 of 302 (269636)
    12-15-2005 10:52 AM


    A General Question for NotSoBlind
    If I told you the flood story, and you had never read it before, would you believe it?
    Seriously, would you?
    Let me put it to you this way, do you belive in icarus? Why?
    I would say: "Well, it's imposible to make wings flapable by a human out of feathers and wax. Not to mention the areodynamic dificulties."
    The some dude comes around and says: "No, you see, it was special flying wax he used and feathers were different back then. Also, the air was much thicker so it took less force to flap your wings. And areodynamics didn't work exactly as they do today... etc."
    Get the picture? It's an ad hoc explanation of an obvious myth. To do this is to miss the point of the story.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 237 by Nighttrain, posted 12-15-2005 5:14 PM Yaro has not replied

    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 3993 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 237 of 302 (269719)
    12-15-2005 5:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 236 by Yaro
    12-15-2005 10:52 AM


    Re: A General Question for NotSoBlind
    The scenario gets wilder the longer you stay with Yecism. Massive quantities of boiling water released from the 'deeps', cooking everything. Wild storms on the surface as a barge tries to stay upright. Huge icebergs liberated and sailing round the globe. Thousands of feet of sediment being deposited in orderly fashion with the heaviest elements on top. Massive quantities of water disappearing to where? Then continents shuttling around like speedboats, carrying short lists of life peculiar to each continent. Finally comes the rain of meteor impacts, not just singles, but swarms, leaving huge craters and throwing immense amounts of dust and vaporized rock high into the atmosphere and bringing on repeated nuclear winters. Mankind must have slept through this as no record survives except a censored version in the Bible.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 10:52 AM Yaro has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 246 by MangyTiger, posted 12-15-2005 10:21 PM Nighttrain has replied

    ringo
    Member (Idle past 411 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 238 of 302 (269727)
    12-15-2005 5:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 230 by NotSoBlindFaith
    12-15-2005 1:36 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    NotSoBlindFaith writes:
    ... if you go by what the bible said, and put 2-7 of each KIND (That means 2 felines, two equines, and yes, two dinosaurs, while they had 7 of livestock) you would only need to fit from 16,000 (The largest estimate) to 2,000 animals on the ark.
    I'm curious about these numbers.
    No YEC seems to be able to define what a "kind" is. Yet they same to have a pretty precise idea of how many "kinds" there were (if 2000 to 16000 can be called "precise" ).
    If there were only 2000 to 16000 "kinds" that needed to be on the ark, it shouldn't be too hard to produce a list of them, should it?
    Or is it, as I suspect, a case of "reverse engineering" - where they decided how many animals would fit on the ark and then "concluded" that that must be the number?

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 1:36 AM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    Coragyps
    Member (Idle past 734 days)
    Posts: 5553
    From: Snyder, Texas, USA
    Joined: 11-12-2002


    Message 239 of 302 (269748)
    12-15-2005 6:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith
    12-15-2005 3:52 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    please explain to me why there are so many fossils of sea life on top of mountains, including Mt. Everest, the highest mountain in the world.
    The limestones on the top 2000 feet or so of Mt Everest are not strictly limestones, NSBF. They've been metamorphosed into something more like marble by having been buried deep enough to get heated to 700 degrees or so for a very long time. Then, since that burial, the six or ten miles of rock that was burying them has been eroded away and the mountains have been uplifted to their present height - and the uplift can be measured to be ongoing.
    Explain that to me in a Flood scenario.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by NotSoBlindFaith, posted 12-15-2005 3:52 AM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

    NotSoBlindFaith
    Inactive Junior Member


    Message 240 of 302 (269768)
    12-15-2005 7:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 235 by Yaro
    12-15-2005 9:36 AM


    Re: Perfect?
    Isaiah 40:22 (that book was written many centuries before the time of Christ) talks about the sphericity of the earth. Also, in Job 26:7 ”He suspends the Earth over nothing’. So, you say they believed in a flat earth supported by pillars, yet the account written by “Those Ancients” refutes that theory.
    LOL! Ok. Let me give you a little explanation about plate tectonics. These are gigantic, massive plates of rock "floating" around on the mantle of the earth. They are grinding up against each other, slamming into each other, with amazing force! Enough force to create new continents, pile up rocks into mountains, etc.
    When a massive earthquake happens, like the one that caused the tsunami, it's because the plates shift. You know how far they shift in order to cause an earthquake? A few inches. You hear that!!! A few inches can cause a massive Earthquake!
    Earthquake - Wikipedia
    http://www.dnr.state.md.us/...rce/spring2004/earthquake.html
    Now you are talking about INCREDIBLE forces. Enugh to push up Everest all in the span of a year or two! You are out of your mind!!!
    Do you realize the level of catastrophe you are talking about?
    That level of sizemic energy would boil the damn ocean! I mean, seriously, think a little!
    Ok, first, please refrain from swearing, it’s not polite. Second, Yes, the cataclysmic forces that were rpesent during the flood are mind boggling to think about. But they are not as far fetched as you would have people believe.
    The model proposed by Baumgardner begins with a pre-flood super-continent (”Let the waters ... be gathered together into one place’ Genesis 1:9) and dense ocean floor rocks. The process starts with the cold and dense ocean floor beginning to sink into the softer, less dense mantle beneath. The friction from this movement generates heat, especially around the edges, which softens the adjacent mantle material, making it less resistant to the sinking of the ocean floor.14 The edges sink faster, dragging the rest of the ocean floor along, in conveyor belt fashion. Faster movement creates more friction and heat in the surrounding mantle, reducing its resistance further and so the ocean floor moves even faster, and so on. At its peak, this thermal runaway instability would have allowed for subduction at rates of meters-per-second. This key concept is called runaway subduction.
    The sinking ocean floor would displace mantle material, starting large-scale movement throughout the entire mantle. However, as the ocean floor sank and rapidly subducted adjacent to the pre-flood super-continent’s margins, elsewhere the earth’s crust would be under such tensional stress that it would be torn apart (rifted), breaking up both the pre-flood super-continent and the ocean floor.
    Thus, crustal spreading zones would rapidly extend along cracks in the ocean floor for some 6,000 miles where the splitting was occurring. Hot mantle material displaced by the subducting slabs would well up, rising to the surface along these spreading zones. On the ocean floor, this hot mantle material would vaporize copious amounts of ocean water, producing a linear geyser of superheated steam along the whole length of the spreading centers (perhaps the ”fountains of the great deep’? Genesis 7:11; 8:2). This steam would disperse, condensing in the atmosphere to fall as intense global rain (”and the flood-gates of heaven were opened’ Genesis 7:11). This could account for the rain persisting for 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:12).
    Baumgardner’s catastrophic plate tectonics global flood model for earth history15 is able to explain more geological data than the conventional plate tectonics model with its many millions of years. For example, rapid subduction of the pre-flood ocean floor into the mantle results in new ocean floor that is dramatically hotter, especially in its upper 60 miles, not just at spreading ridges, but everywhere. Being hotter, the new ocean floor is of lower density and therefore rises 3,000 to 6,000 feet higher than before and implies a dramatic rise in global sea level.
    This higher sea level floods the continental surfaces and makes possible the deposition of large areas of sedimentary deposits on top of the normally high-standing continents. The Grand Canyon provides a spectacular window into the amazing layer-cake character of these sediment deposits that in many cases continue uninterrupted for more than 600 miles.16 Uniformitarian (”slow and gradual’) plate tectonics simply cannot account for such thick continental sediment sequences of such vast horizontal extent.
    Moreover, the rapid subduction of the cooler pre-flood ocean floor into the mantle would have resulted in increased circulation of viscous fluid (note: plastic, not molten) rock within the mantle. This mantle-flow (i.e., ”stirring’ within the mantle) suddenly altered the temperatures at the core-mantle boundary, as the mantle near the core would now be significantly cooler than the adjacent core, and thus convection and heat loss from the core would be greatly accelerated. The model suggests that under these conditions of accelerated convection in the core, rapid geomagnetic reversals would have occurred. These in turn would be expressed on the earth’s surface and recorded in the so-called magnetic stripes.17 However, these would be erratic and locally patchy, laterally and at depth, just as the data indicate,18 even according to the uniformitarian scientists cited earlier.
    This model provides a mechanism that explains how the plates could move relatively quickly (in a matter of a few months) over the mantle and subduct. And it predicts that little or no movement would be measurable between plates today, because the movement would have come almost to a standstill when the entire pre-flood ocean floor was subducted. From this we would also expect the trenches adjacent to subduction zones today to be filled with undisturbed late-flood and post-flood sediments, just as we observe.
    Aspects of Baumgardner’s mantle modeling have been independently duplicated and thus verified by others.19 Furthermore, Baumgardner’s modeling predicts that because this thermal runaway subduction of cold ocean floor crustal slabs occurred relatively recently, during the flood (about 5,000 or so years ago), then those slabs would not have had sufficient time since to be fully assimilated into the surrounding mantle. So, evidence of the slabs above the mantle-core boundary (to which they sank) should still be found today. Indeed, evidence for such unassimilated relatively cold slabs has been found in seismic studies.20
    So there you go, the forces of Noah’s flood can easily explain the rising of the mountains, lowering of the ocean floor, and the aboundance of sea life on mountains.
    They were pushed up, over millions of years. Everest was part of an ocean untill the indian subcontinent slammed into asia over the course of millenia. Your model has the damn thing zipping around the globe like a steam ship. It's idiotic.
    And if the mountains with sea life fossils on them were pushed up over millions of years, please explain how the fossils of sea life occur everywhere around the glode, from the Sahara desert to Mount Everest. You would need every body of land being under water at some point in time to explain that. Also, there are fossil “graveyards” of dinosaurs all over the earth.
    Ok, question one: If they actually believed the earth was set on pillars, why does the bible talk about the earth being round? A round earth wouldn’t sit in pillars.
    Figuratively, the pillars of the earth may design the princes of the world, the supreme rulers of it, and civil magistrates, who are sometimes called cornerstones, and the shields of the earth (Zech. 10:4, Ps 47:9) and so pillars, because they are the means of cementing, supporting, and protecting the people of the earth, and of preserving their peace and property. Likewise good men may be meant in a figurative sense, who, as they are the salt of the earth, are the pillars of it, for whose sake it was made, and is supported, and continued in being; the church is the pillar and ground of truth; and every good man is a pillar in the house of God, and especially ministers of the Gospel (see Rev. 3:12, 1Tim. 3:15, Gal 2:9, Pr 9:1).
    It is clear that, in context, the reference is to the noble ones, princes, not the physical Earth. Immediately before, the context is people, and immediately after the context is also about people. It is quite clear that this is the meaning, as Gill points out (Ryrie’s Study Bible notes also say the same thing).
    Actauly, according to biblical dating, the flood happened in 2304 BC, that give 4,285 years for all present languages and races to come forth. Plus, since you say there is no evidence the earth is 6,000 years old, please, give me one peice of proof the earth is billions of years old.
    Chinese is a member of the Sino-Tibetan_languages. Hebrew/arabic are members of the Afro-Asiatic languages. Linguistis who study these languages will tell you they are compleatly unrelated. These languages are distinctive and bear no resemblance and theire regions of existence are largely defined by geography.
    So basically, you are saying, that whoever the individual(s) are that invented chinese, basically did it intentionaly forgetting all his hebrew language and culture. Further, these people must have worked hard to create a language so complex and different. They must have stayd up late making up new myths, building cities, and writting books with the 3000+ ideograms they made up in the back of their notebooks.
    And if you need a mechanism for certain people carrying certain genetic traits to go wander off to the four corners of the globe while creating there own language and forgetting there own, I have one for you. It’s called the Tower of Babel. You see, suddenly, thousands of people suddenly would have found themselves incapable of communicating with anyone outside there extended family group. Because of fear and frustration, they would have moved away, eventually reaching there current habitations. And while your on the subject of human appearances and genetics, please explain to me that although we supposedly all come from the same group of African apes, we all don’t have dark skin and speak in African or close to African dialects.
    I'm curious about these numbers.
    No YEC seems to be able to define what a "kind" is. Yet they same to have a pretty precise idea of how many "kinds" there were (if 2000 to 16000 can be called "precise" ).
    If there were only 2000 to 16000 "kinds" that needed to be on the ark, it shouldn't be too hard to produce a list of them, should it?
    Or is it, as I suspect, a case of "reverse engineering" - where they decided how many animals would fit on the ark and then "concluded" that that must be the number?
    Its quit simple really.
    The Bible tells us in Genesis chapter 1 that God created plants to produce seed ”after their kind’ (vv. 11, 12). God also created the animals to reproduce ”after their kind’ (vv. 20, 24, 25). ”After their/its kind’ is repeated ten times in Genesis 1, giving emphasis to the principle. And we take it for granted. When we plant a tomato seed, we don’t expect to see a geranium pop up out of the ground. Nor do we expect that our dog will give birth to kittens or that Aunt Betty, who is expecting, will bring home a chimpanzee baby from hospital! Our everyday experience confirms the truth of the Bible that things produce offspring true to their kind.
    But what is a created ”kind’? And what organisms today represent the kinds God created in the beginning? The creationist scientist, Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778), the founder of the science of taxonomy,1 tried to determine the created kinds. He defined a ”species’ as a group of organisms that could interbreed among themselves, but not with another group, akin to the Genesis concept.
    So, on the ark, there would be 2 canines, 2 felines, 2 equines, 2 ursines, 7 sheep, 7 goats, 2 baby diplodocid dinosaurs, 2 baby large carnivorous dinosaurs similar to T-rexes, ect.
    The scenario gets wilder the longer you stay with Yecism. Massive quantities of boiling water released from the 'deeps', cooking everything. Wild storms on the surface as a barge tries to stay upright. Huge icebergs liberated and sailing round the globe. Thousands of feet of sediment being deposited in orderly fashion with the heaviest elements on top. Massive quantities of water disappearing to where? Then continents shuttling around like speedboats, carrying short lists of life peculiar to each continent. Finally comes the rain of meteor impacts, not just singles, but swarms, leaving huge craters and throwing immense amounts of dust and vaporized rock high into the atmosphere and bringing on repeated nuclear winters. Mankind must have slept through this as no record survives except a censored version in the Bible.
    Ok, first, I’m not sure how you can truthfully say there are no surviving records, as there are 272 different stories of a worldwide flood, present in every culture from Australian aborigines to Aztecs. In fact, heres the Aztec version of Noah’s flood, complete with there own version of Babel.
    'When mankind were overwhelmed with the deluge, none were preserved but a man named Coxcox . and a woman called Xochiquetzal, who saved themselves in a little bark, and having afterwards got to land upon a mountain called by them Colhuacan, had there a great many children; ... these children were all born dumb, until a dove from a lofty tree imparted to them languages, but differing so much that they could not understand one another.'
    Also, Evidence indicates that the continents have moved apart in the past, but can today’s supposed drift rates of 0.78-5.9 inches [ 1.98 to 14.99 centimeters] per year be extrapolated far back into the past? Is the present really the key to the past, as uniformitarians earnestly proclaim? Such extrapolation would mean that an ocean basin or mountain range would take about 100 million years to form.
    The Bible does not speak directly about continental drift and plate tectonics, but if the continents were once together, as Genesis 1:9-10 suggests, and are now apart, how does that fit into a biblical view of geology with a time line of only thousands of years?11
    Dr John Baumgardner, working at the Los Alamos National Laboratories (New Mexico, USA), has used supercomputers to model processes in the earth’s mantle to show that tectonic plate movement could have occurred very rapidly, and ”spontaneously.’12 This concept is known as catastrophic plate tectonics. At the time of writing, Baumgardner, a creation scientist, is acknowledged as having developed the world’s best 3-D super-computer model of plate tectonics.13
    (You can find a very detailed report on how this is possible here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/...ersBook/continental11.asp it’s must to large to post here. If you do nothing else, just read it and try to think critically.)
    The limestones on the top 2000 feet or so of Mt Everest are not strictly limestones, NSBF. They've been metamorphosed into something more like marble by having been buried deep enough to get heated to 700 degrees or so for a very long time. Then, since that burial, the six or ten miles of rock that was burying them has been eroded away and the mountains have been uplifted to their present height - and the uplift can be measured to be ongoing.
    Explain that to me in a Flood scenario.
    You want me to explain it to you in a flood scenario? Well, as you wish.
    Mt Everest is almost 9 km (5.5 miles) high. How, then, could the Flood have covered ”all the high hills under the whole heaven’?
    The Bible refers only to ”high hills,’ and the mountains today were formed only towards the end of, and after, the Flood by collision of the tectonic plates and the associated upthrusting. In support of this, the layers that form the uppermost parts of Mt Everest are themselves composed of fossil-bearing, water-deposited layers.
    This uplift of the new continental land-masses from under the Flood waters would have meant that, as the mountains rose and the valleys sank, the waters would have rapidly drained off the newly emerging land surfaces. The collapse of natural dams holding back the floodwaters on the land would also have caused catastrophic flooding. Such rapid movement of large volumes of water would have caused extensive erosion and shaped the basic features of today’s Earth surface.
    Thus it is not hard to envisage the rapid carving of the landscape features that we see on the earth today, including places such as the Grand Canyon of the USA. The present shape of Uluru (Ayers Rock), a sandstone monolith in central Australia, is the result of erosion, following tilting and uplift, of previously horizontal beds of water-laid sand. The feldspar-rich sand that makes up Uluru must have been deposited very quickly and recently. Long-distance transport of the sand would have caused the grains to be rounded and sorted, whereas they are jagged and unsorted. If they had sat accumulating slowly in a lake bed drying in the sun over eons of time, which is the story told in the geological display at the park center, the feldspar would have weathered into clay. Likewise, if Uluru had sat in the once-humid area of central Australia for millions of years, it would have weathered to clay.21 Similarly, the nearby Kata Tjuta (The Olgas) are composed of an unsorted mixture of large boulders, sand and mud, indicating that the material must have been transported and deposited very rapidly.
    Receding floodwaters eroded the land, creating river valleys. This explains why rivers are often so much smaller than the valleys they flow in today”they did not carve the valleys. The water flow that carved out the river valleys must have been far greater than the volume of water we see flowing in the rivers today. This is consistent with voluminous Flood waters draining off the emerging land surfaces at the close of Noah’s Flood, and flowing into the rapidly sinking, newly prepared, deep ocean basins.
    Our understanding of how the Flood could have occurred is continually developing. Ideas come and go, but the fact of the Flood remains. Genesis clearly testifies to it, Jesus and the Apostles confirmed it, and there is abundant global geological evidence for a global watery cataclysm.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 235 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 9:36 AM Yaro has replied

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